Posted by:
procrusteanchurch
(
)
Date: January 01, 2014 05:38PM
On MormonThink, there are several quotes from Journal of Discourses. I wasn't sure if they picked the few odd quotes from JoD and placed them out of context, or if the quotes on MormonThink were representative of JoD. Consequently, I have started reading JoD so I can form my own opinion. I've only made it through the first 109 pages, but there have been plenty of crazy quotes.
I'm not sure if it is appropriate to post the quotes here, but I thought some people at RfM might find the quotes interesting. Following are the quotes that stuck out to me. The actual text from JoD are in quotation marks, and they are often immediately followed by notes I took for my own benefit. Also, I have placed the quotes in different topic sections (e.g., Doctrine, Native Americans, Polygamy, etc.)
I apologize for the excessive length of this post, and I thought of posting the quotes in a series of posts. However, due to my family situation, the amount of time I can spend on RfM is limited, so I figured I'd better post the whole lot all at once.
I am planning to share more gems from JoD in the future. However, if this post is inappropriate or is not helpful, I would appreciate your feedback so that I don't waste my time or yours with future posts. Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the following gems I encountered in just the first 109 pages of JoD (there's over 8,000 left). Also, as a side note, so far it appears to me that MormonThink is quite fair in it's use of quotes from JoD - not surprising given the quality of the site.
Apostates/Unbelievers
JD 1:4, Brigham Young, January 16, 1853
“But by and bye those characters will fall out by the way, because the soil has not depth to nourish the seeds of truth. They receive it, but not the love of it; it dies, and they turn away.”
If someone doesn’t believe, it’s their fault.
JD 1:73, Orson Hyde, April 9, 1853
“It is all the same to me whether they want to destroy the flock, or destroy, steal, and carry off the property of the flock.”
This talk by OH is obscure, but the overall message appears to be that apostates are wolves that must be destroyed. OH delivers this message in a veiled manner that palliates the threatening message.
JD 1:82, Brigham Young, March 27th, 1853
“What has been the starting point of all your afflictions? They began with apostates in your midst”
BY blames apostates for Mormon’s troubles.
JD 1:82 − p.83, Brigham Young, March 27th, 1853
“I want to know if any one of you who has got the spirit of "Mormonism" in you, the spirit that Joseph and Hyrum had, or that we have here, would say, Let us hear both sides of the question, let us listen, and prove all things? What do you want to prove? Do you want to prove that an old apostate, who has been cut off from the Church thirteen times for lying, is anything worthy of notice?”
BY is counseling Mormons not to listen to apostates and their reasons for disbelief.
JD 1:83, Brigham Young, March 27th, 1853
“I say again, you Gladdenites, do not court persecution, or you will get more than you want, and it will come quicker than you want it.”
“Now, you Gladdenites, keep your tongues still, lest sudden destruction come upon you.”
BY continuing his threating of apostates (founder of
Gladdenites left the Church).
JD 1:83, Brigham Young, March 27th, 1853
“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line, and righteousness to the plummet. [Voices, generally, "go it, go it."] If you say it is right, raise your hands. [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”
BY inciting congregation against apostates.
JD 1:93, Brigham Young, June 13th, 1852
“There is not a man or woman that loves the truth, who has heard the report of the Book of Mormon, but the Spirit of the Almighty has testified to him or her of its truth; neither has any man heard the name of Joseph Smith, but the Spirit has whispered to him − "He is a true Prophet."
Implies anyone who doesn’t gain a testimony of J.S. or Book of Mormon does not love the truth.
JD 1:93 − p.94, Brigham Young, June 13th, 1852
“Nearly all the world pursue their own path, they will not believe the truth when it is declared to them, nor see the light when it is before their eyes, but they close their eyes, harden their hearts, and would rather believe a lie that they may be damned.”
From context of quote, anyone who does not believe J.S. or Book of Mormon is following the Devil.
JD 1:109, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
"A great many who have apostatized, say, had they seen the Revelation on Celestial Marriage, years ago, they would never have left the Church. The believed 'Mormonism;' but supposed there was no such Revelation in existence.”
BY is quoting Orson Pratt here. The message BY is conveying is that many apostates would not have left the Church had they been aware of plural marriage. Seems a little hard to believe.
Dishonesty
JD 1:40 − p.41, Brigham Young, July 11, 1852
“Joseph Smith was the subject of forty−eight law−suits, and the most of them I witnessed with my own eyes; but not one action could ever be made to bear against him. No law or constitutional right did he ever violate.”
Surely B.Y. knew that J.S. broke the law by practicing polygamy as well as in other particulars.
Doctrine
JD 1:7, Parley P. Pratt, April 7, 1853
“Now if intelligent beings, who once inhabited flesh, such as our fathers, mothers, wives children, &c., have really died, and are now dead in the sense of the word, as understood by the ancient Sadducees, or modern Atheist, then it is in vain to talk of converse with the dead. All controversy, in that case, is at an end on the subject of correspondence with the dead, because an intelligence must exist before it can communicate. If these individuals are dead, in the sense that the human body dies, then there is no communication from them. This we know, because of our own observation and experience. We have seen many dead bodies, but have never known of a single instance of any intelligence communicated therefrom”
Parley making the argument that communications do not occur with those who have died. What about Moroni?
JD 1:59, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“by virtue of the everlasting and eternal covenant of marriage, they will continue to increase and multiply to all ages of eternity, to raise up beings after their own order, and in their own likeness and image, germs of intelligence, that are destined, in their times and seasons, to become not only sons of God, but Gods themselves.”
Supports doctrine that men can become as God.
JD 1:59, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“The peopling of worlds, or an endless increase, even of one family, would require an endless increase of worlds; and if one family were to be united in the eternal covenant of marriage, to fulfil that great commandment, to multiply his species, and propagate them, and if there be no end to the increase of his posterity, it would call for an endless increase of new worlds.”
Within context of OP’s talk, OP is teaching how men can become like God.
JD 1:50 − p.51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
“When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken − HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non−professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.”
“And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family”
BY is teaching that Adam is our God
JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
“It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.”
BY now appears to teach that Adam/Michael is the Holy Ghost.
Hypocrisy
JD 1:95 − p.96, George A. Smith, October 1851
“It was admitted on the part of the prosecution, that James Monroe, who is alleged in this indictment to have been killed by Howard Egan, had seduced Egan's wife”
JD 1:97, George A. Smith, October 1851
“When the news reached Iron County, that Egan's wife had been seduced by Monroe, the universal conclusion was, "there has to be another execution;" and if Howard Egan had not killed that man, he would have been damned by the community for ever, and could not have lived peaceably, without the frown of every man”
“I will say, here, in our own Territory, we are the sovereign people, and to seduce the wife of a citizen is death by the common law.”
JD 1:99, George A. Smith, October 1851
“…seduce his neighbor's wife, or seduce or prostitute any female, may expect to find no more protection than the wolf would find, or the dog that the shepherd finds killing the sheep: that he may be made aware that he cannot escape for a moment.”
In the previous quotes, GAS is making a case to a jury that Howard Egan was justified in the murder of James Monroe because Monroe seduced Egan’s wife. This standard did not apply to PPP when seduced another man’s wife, nor to JS when he seduced the wives of others.
JD 1:103, Z. Snow, October 1851
“If you do not find the crime to have been committed there, but in the Territory of Utah, the defendant, for that reason, is entitled to a verdict of, not guilty.”
Z. Snow is the judge for the trial of Howard Egan. Z. Snow essentially states that the U.S. cannot try anyone for any crime committed within Utah, leaving the Church as the supreme legal authority there. Ultimately, with a Mormon judge and jury, Egan was acquitted of murder contrary to the laws of the U.S.
Justice
JD 1:108 − p.109, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. That is what I expect I shall do”
JD 1:109, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“If you will cause all those whom you know to be thieves, to be placed in a line before the mouth of one of our largest cannon, well loaded with chain shot, I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of sins. That is a short discourse on thieves, I acknowledge, but I tell you the truth as it is in my heart.”
BY doesn’t seem very merciful or willing to give people a chance to change or repent.
Miscellaneous
JD 1:41, Brigham Young, July 11, 1852
“…there never was a boy, a man, either old or middle aged, that ever tried to live a life more pure and refined than your humble servant.”
B.Y. is referring to himself, his humility is underwhelming.
JD 1:69 − p.70, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“I have asked the Board of Regents to cast out from their system of education, the present orthography and written form of our language”
JD 1:70, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“If there were one set of words to convey one set of ideas, it would put an end to the ambiguity which often mystifies the ideas given in the languages now spoken.”
The previous two quotes appear to pertain to BY’s failed attempt to introduce a new alphabet.
Native Americans
JD 1:11, Parley P. Pratt, April 7, 1853
“Because a portion of the inhabitants thereof are found unworthy of the consolations of the Gospel, until the fulness of time, until they have suffered in hell, in the dungeons of darkness, or the prisons of the condemned, amid the buffetings of fiends, and malicious and lying spirits”
Doesn’t sound like the Spirit World is a very pleasant place for Native Americans. Doesn’t seem appropriate that Lamanite descendants (if indeed there are any) would be punished for the sins of their fathers when Article of Faith number 2 seems to preclude this.
JD 1:11, Parley P. Pratt, April 7, 1853
“Who can imagine a greater hell than that before our eyes, in the circumstances of the poor, miserable, degraded Indian and his ancestors, since the keys of the Gospel were taken from them some fifteen hundred years ago?”
Not only offensive, but factually incorrect. Before Europeans arrived, Native Americans were doing just fine. The unfortunate circumstances of Native Americans at that time could hardly be attributable to the loss of the keys of the Gospel.
JD 1:44, George Albert Smith, July 24, 1852
“Why has not the Indian title been extinguished, and the people here been permitted to hold titles to land?”
GAS is complaining that the U.S. has allowed the Native Americans to retain the rights to their lands instead of conferring the rights to the Mormons. This sentiment is counter to the amicable Mormon-Native American narrative I had always learned at Church.
JD 1:44, George Albert Smith, July 24, 1852
“The people here have sustained three Indian wars at their own expense”
GAS is complaining that Mormons have had to pay for their wars with Native Americans instead of the U.S. funding the wars. The fact that there were hostilities between Mormons and Native Americans to the extent that they could be characterized as wars is counter to the friendly relationships narrative I had always been taught at Church.
JD 1:105, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“…because when we first entered Utah, we were prepared to meet all the Indians in these mountains, and kill every soul of them if we had been obliged so to do.”
JD 1:106, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“But it is truly characteristic of the cunning Indian, when he finds he cannot get advantage over his enemy, to curl down at once, and say "I love you.”
“ and I shall live a long while before I can believe that an Indian is my friend, when it would be to his advantage to be my enemy.”
JD 1:106, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“These Indians are the seed of Israel, through the loins of Joseph who was sold into Egypt; they are the children of Abraham, and belong to the chosen seed; were it not so, you would never have seen them with dark, red skins. This is in consequence of the curse that has been placed upon them, which never would have come upon them in the world, had their fathers not violated the order of God, which was formerly among them; for in proportion to the light they sinned against, so were they reduced by the curse of God, which has been visited upon their children for many generations”
This is counter to the recent Church announcement that skin color is not a punishment.
JD 1:106, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“I hesitate not to say, if this people possessed the faith they ought to have, the Lord Almighty would never suffer any of the sons of Jacob to injure them in the least; no never”
BY blames Native Americans for all their sufferings resulting from European settlement in the Americas.
JD 1:108, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
“I am satisfied that our faith and prayers will do a great deal of good to these wretched remnants of Abraham's seed.”
BY’s disdain for Native Americans is apparent. Additionally, I can’t see that faith and prayers have done much to improve the situation for Native Americans.
Obedience
JD 1:29, Brigham Young, March 4, 1852
“This company are controllable, like the ship by the rudder, in a gentle breeze, that can be turned hither and thither at the will and pleasure of him who commands; so with all here present”
Doesn’t appear to leave much room for free agency for the public addressed by Brigham Young at the Legislative Festival where he was speaking.
JD 1:32, Brigham Young, March 4, 1852
“...we ought to love Him better than our wives, children, and brethren and sisters, and all things besides…”
And how do we love Him? By doing what Brigham Young says? Opens door for prophets to manipulate members to the detriment of their families.
JD 1:84, Brigham Young, March 27th, 1853
“After Alfred Smith was called upon to go on a mission, he would not go, and I knew he would apostatize. Do you suppose that after a man has refused to fulfil his calling, he can retain the spirit of truth, and stand?”
Implies that members must accept their callings or they are on the road to apostasy.
Parenting – Family Relationships
JD 1:66 − p.67, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“If your children do not receive impressions of true piety, virtue, tenderness, and every principle of the holy Gospel, you may be assured that their sins will not be required at the hands of the father, but of the mother.”
Mothers are responsible for raising children in righteousness, fathers get a free pass.
JD 1:68, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“The blood of these wicked children will be required at the hands of their mothers! Should your husbands be called out to fight the Indians, or go to the islands of the sea to gather the poor, it is none of your business, when it is their calling to be away from home.”
Mothers are responsible if their children become wicked. Additionally, mothers are supposed to willingly accept absolute neglect by their husbands if they are called away from the home (presumably by the Church).
JD 1:68, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“Mothers, if you suffer your children to grow up wild, and uncorrected, when they come into the hands of their fathers, and will not follow their counsels, let them be disowned, and have no portion in the inheritance; let them be disfranchised, be banished from Israel, and not be numbered in the books of the offspring of Abraham. This shall be the fate of my disobedient children, if I have any; and if there are any of my children here to−day, let them hear it! for if they will not keep my commandments, they shall have no part or lot in the household of faith.”
Seems odd that BY would encourage mothers to give up on their children and to kick them out of society. I thought God was supposed to have endowed women with maternal instincts, and this BY’s counsel appears contrary to this supposedly divine instinct.
JD 1:68, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“Is it right that my wife should dictate to me? It is just as reasonable, and as right, as it is for your children to rise up and dictate to their mother. It is not their business to dictate to you, their duty is to obey, and not to dictate.”
Wives must obey their husbands.
Polygamy
JD 1:54, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Then, if it can be proven to a demonstration, that the Latter−day Saints have actually embraced, as a part and portion of their religion, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, it is constitutional”
This is an incorrect statement, the constitution confers the right to believe what one wants, not to behave how one wants, and polygamy was always against the law.
JD 1:54, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“…it is incorporated as a part of our religion, and necessary for our exaltation to the fulness of the Lord's glory in the eternal world.”
OP is teaching that the practice of polygamy is necessary to achieve exaltation.
JD 1:60, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Why not look upon Abraham's blessings as your own, for the Lord blessed him with a promise of seed as numerous as the sand upon the sea−shore; so will you be blessed, or else you will not inherit the blessings of Abraham.”
JD 1:60, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Was he to accomplish it all through one wife? No.”
“Here then, was a foundation laid for the fulfilment of the great and grand promise concerning the multiplicity of his seed. It would have been rather a slow process, if Abraham had been confined to one wife”
JD 1:60 − p.61, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“I think there is only about one−fifth of the population of the globe, that believe in the one−wife system”
JD 1:61, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Here, then, we perceive, just from this one principle, reasoning from the blessings of Abraham alone, the necessity − if we would partake of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob − of doing their works; and he that will not do the works of Abraham, and walk in his footsteps, will be deprived of his blessings.”
In the preceding quotes (JD 1:60-61), OP makes a case for the necessity of polygamy.
JD 1:61, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Do you find such haunts of prostitution, degradation, and misery here, in the cities of the mountains? No.”
JD 1:62, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“How is this to be prevented? for we have got a fallen nature to grapple with. It is to be prevented in the way the Lord devised in ancient times; that is, by giving to His faithful servants a plurality of wives”
OP is making the case that polygamy prevents evils such as prostitution, whoredoms, adultery, fornication, etc.
JD 1:62 − p.63, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“But again, there is another reason why this plurality should exist among the Latter−day Saints. I have already given you one reason, and that is, that you might inherit the blessings and promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and receive a continuation of your posterity, that they may become as numerous as the sand upon the sea−shore.”
JD 1:62 − p.63, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“ but what has that to do with the plurality of wives? I will tell you. I have already told you that the spirits of men and women, all had a previous existence, thousands of years ago, in the heavens, in the presence of God; and I have already told you that among them are many spirits that are more noble, more intelligent than others, that were called the great and mighty ones, reserved until the dispensation of the fulness of times, to come forth upon the face of the earth, through a noble parentage that shall train their young and tender minds in the truths of eternity, that they may grow up in the Lord, and be strong in the power of His might, be clothed upon with His glory, be filled with exceeding great faith; that the visions of eternity may be opened to their minds; that they may be Prophets, Priests, and Kings to the Most High God. Do you believe, says one, that they are reserved until the last dispensation, for such a noble purpose? Yes; and among the Saints is the most likely place for these spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage. They are to be sent to that people that are the most righteous of any other people upon the earth; there to be trained up properly, according to their nobility and intelligence, and according to the laws which the Lord ordained before they were born. This is the reason why the Lord is sending them here, brethren and sisters; they are appointed to come and take their bodies here, that in their generations they may be raised up among the righteous.”
Apparently, polygamy is necessary to provide sufficient bodies for noble spirits. This is counterintuitive since polygamy reduced the number of children that could be produced/supported as indicated by the relatively few number of offspring produced by BY with his many wives.
JD 1:62 − p.63, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations that dwell upon the face of this earth.”
Polygamy also needed so that noble spirits would have to be born to people within fallen nations, certainly a racist sentiment.
JD 1:63, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Then is it not reasonable, and consistent that the Lord should say unto His faithful and chosen servants, that had proved themselves before Him all the day long; that had been ready and willing to do whatsoever His will required them to perform − take unto yourselves more wives, like unto the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of old”
JD 1:64, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“But, says one, how have you obtained this information? By new revelation. When was it given, and to whom? It was given to our Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, Joseph Smith, on the 12th day of July, 1843; only about eleven months before he was martyred for the testimony of Jesus.”
This is not consistent with JS practice since he began practicing polygamy before July 12, 1843.
JD 1:64, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Now, let us enquire, what will become of those individuals who have this law taught unto them in plainness, if they reject it? [A voice in the stand, "they will be damned."] I will tell you: they will be damned, saith the Lord God Almighty,”
“With all the knowledge and light he had, he must comply with it, or, says the Lord unto him, you shall be damned; and the same is true in regard to all those who reject these things.”
Those who do not accept polygamy will be condemned.
JD 1:64 − p.65, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Let us inquire after those who are to be damned, admitting they will be redeemed, which they will be, unless they have sinned against the Holy Ghost. They will be redeemed, but what will it be to? Will it be to exaltation, and to a fulness of glory? Will it be to become the sons of God, or Gods to reign upon thrones, and multiply their posterity, and reign over them as kings? No, it will not. They have lost that exalted privilege for ever; though they have after having been punished for long periods, escape by the skin of their teeth; but no kingdom will be conferred up on them.”
Again, those who do not accept polygamy will be condemned and cannot achieve exaltation.
JD 1:65, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“Here, then, you can read their history; they are not Gods, but they are angels or servants to the Gods.”
Those who don’t accept polygamy can’t become Gods.
JD 1:65, Orson Pratt, August 29, 1852
“What does the Lord intend to do with this people? He intends to make them a kingdom of Kings and Priests, a kingdom unto Himself, or in other words, a kingdom of Gods, if they will hearken to His law. There will be many who will not hearken; there will be the foolish among the wise, who will not receive the new and everlasting covenant in its fulness; and they never will attain to their exaltation; they never will be counted worthy to hold the sceptre of power over a numerous progeny, that shall multiply themselves without end, like the sand upon the sea shore.”
In this context, “fullness of the covenant” refers to plural marriage. Again, those who reject the covenant of plural marriage won’t achieve exaltation.
Prophecy
JD 1:19, John Taylor, August 22, 1852
“…the time is not far distant when the kings of the earth will be glad to come to our Elders to ask counsel to help them out of their difficulties”
I’m not aware of many (any) kings of the earth asking Elders for counsel.
JD 1:70 − p.71, Brigham Young, April 8th, 1852
“I shall yet see the time that I can converse with this people, and not speak to them, but the expression of my countenance will tell the congregation what I wish to convey, without opening my mouth.”
I’ve never heard of instance where this prophecy was fulfilled and BY was able to communicate with just his countenance and no words.
JD 1:77, Brigham Young, September 11, 1853
“His work was given to him sixteen years ago, by the Prophet Joseph Smith, in the Kirtland Temple. Parley P. Pratt has yet to build temples in old Scotland.”
Apparently, J.S. informed P.P.P. that he would build temples in Scotland. To my knowledge, no temples were built in Scotland during P.P.P.’s lifetime.
Science
JD 1:10, Parley P. Pratt, April 7, 1853
“Ask the poor Lamanites who have, with their fathers before them, inhabited these mountains for a thousand years,”
Evident that Parley believed Native Americans in the proximity of Utah were descended from Lamanites. Not supported, to my knowledge, by genetic testing. However, I am not aware of the specific Native American populations in which genetic testing has been conducted.
JD 1:11, Parley P. Pratt, April 7, 185
“It was many, many centuries before Christ lived in the flesh, that a whole generation, eight souls excepted, were cut off by the flood.”
Literal interpretation of the flood.
JD 1:39 − p.40, Brigham Young, July 11, 1852
“He presides over the worlds on worlds that illuminate this little planet…”
Not sure if B.Y. is using the term “illuminates” literally or figuratively, but the sun literally illuminates the earth and I’m not aware of way in which other worlds illuminate the earth literally or figuratively.
Tithes and Offerings
JD 1:53, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
“I will take every kind of spare stock I have, except my cows and sheep, and wipe off these debts until they are cancelled; and now every man who will do the same, let him rise upon his feet. [The whole congregation of two thousand men rose up to a man.]”
BY asking members to sacrifice their possessions to pay for the debts of the Church.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2014 10:31PM by procrusteanchurch.