The Prophet of the LDS Church, Thomas S. Monson has been ordered to attend court and face allegations of fraud.

A court in London, England has issued Thomas Spencer Monson with 2 summons (see below) containing allegations of seven offences in contravention of Section 1 Fraud Act 2006.

Mr. Monson is required to attend the court, Westminster Magistrates’ Court, on 14th March 2014. The court will then almost certainly refer the case to Southwark Crown Court for further proceedings.

Failure of Mr. Monson to attend the Court on 14th March may result in a warrant being issued for his arrest.

For further detail see mormonthink.com

I think the October surprise has arrived.

Thanks Tom, best wishes and give em hell.

Holy $#@#!!

sooo much better than I expected!!!

well, I guess we know why the 15 approved the essays...

hahaha - I can't wait to see this in the news!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 11:36AM by grubbygert.

Wow, that actually sounds quite big!

Tom, congratulations on all your hard work my friend. You have my support in whatever is needed.
Marc

Holy smoke batman. You did bring a surprise.

OMG! I am so happy right now!!!

Get your popcorn ready!

I have no words. This was well worth the wait. I'll take any October surprise in February if it is this good.

I'm literally beaming right now.

Just saw this on MormonThink!

Can you...can you legally do that?

Edit:

Suing somebody's "religion," I mean. Is there any legal precident in this matter?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 11:39AM by dragonmystic.

dragonmystic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you...can you legally do that?
>


They just did.

Well, I mean, here's the other problem:

Thomas Monson is a U.S. citizen, I presume (is he?). I don't think the UK court has any right to sue a non-UK citizen?

I'm...not a lawyer.

I'm sure he wouldn't have to show up. But if he doesn't, I presume the case will be even more likely to complicate TSCC operations in the U.K.

Since Tommy's cult runs operations in the UK as well, someone will have to show up and defend it there. So sure, they can't do anything to him, but having your cult leader indicted on fraud charges and living as a fugitive isn't exactly the best publicity in the world.

If he doesn't show up, and they issue a warrant and ask for extradition, the US government will slap a pair of handcuffs on Tommy, and overnight him to the UK. If the fraud is in the millions of dollars, you better believe they will do this.

I don't know. With religion, it's difficult, because even if religious leaders say false things, often they genuinely believe they're telling the truth, and they have to take that into account (which is fair enough imo).

However, there is a difference in this case, since tithing is being paid by people under the assumption that those statements are true.

So what I imagine is that Thomas Monson will be asked to either, prove that each of those statements are true, prove that he never taught any of those statements, or, prove that he genuinely believes those statements to be true.

He'll have to take the latter route for most of the statements, since some are disproven (e.g. no death before 6,000 years), and some others there are many sources from the church (or even Monson himself) saying those things.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding this, but that's what I'm getting from this anyway.

I'm sure during the next month he'll be getting training in what to say.

even certain "political" religions, uses claims they cannot possibly prove as enticements to get members and tithes.

every church in england has committed fraud when it claims that membership will result in heavenly reward.

It could be related to financial fraud that has nothing to do with the "religion" side of the church. Courts may not be able to challenge the church's truth claims, but they can certainly say that the "church" is operating as a corrupt business...

I agree, it probably has to do with soliciting money for one purpose and using it for another,

These are indeed the Latter Days!

Oh Tom, you have just made my century!

"President Monson, if he agrees to take the stand, will have to prove these statements are true and, if true, not misleading. This he will have to do under oath in front of a jury of 12 U.K. citizens, and be cross examined by a skilled barrister."

"Failure of Mr. Monson to attend the Court on 14th March may result in a warrant being issued for his arrest."

I have no words...

Do you think he will appear in court?

Well, it says if he doesn't turn up then a warrant MAY issued for his arrest.

So it's a bit of a risk for him not to turn up. However, the key word is "may". If they find a way where he can not turn up to court and also have no warrant issued, they'll almost certainly take that route.

Even with a warrant, wouldn't U.S. authorities have to turn him in to U.K. authorities? They can't just come and get him. Maybe he'll hide out until he dies like John Taylor.

Yes, it's called extradition.

Well, the essays make sense now.

Tommy: "We have not tried to defraud anyone. You can get on our official Web site and see an explanation for all these supposed problems. You can see that we don't claim that the BOA was translated directly from Egyptian Papyri scrolls or anything else. We will call our expert witness, Dan Peterson, to explain everything. I am too busy talking to God to humor this court with my presence."

I just don't understand how he can be summoned to a U.K.Court. What can they do if he doesn't go?

My thoughts exactly! No wonder all that stuff came out.

I guess Monson just saying soohrrry won't cut it eh?

Wow! How about a class action suit in the US too. I want my money back. Is there any possibility of that ever happening?

I hope the Tom trolls have gone back into their caves for now.

Sorry folks but this is an extremely disappointing "surprise." This is it? Seriously? This is nothing. Trying to bring someone to court for his/her religious beliefs?

Another reason that I'm proud to be an American.

Disappointed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry folks but this is an extremely disappointing
> "surprise." This is it? Seriously? This is
> nothing. Trying to bring someone to court for
> his/her religious beliefs?
>
> Another reason that I'm proud to be an American.

This is not about religious beliefs. This is about financial fraud. We Americans need to catch up to the rest of the world.

The issue here isn't "beliefs"...good grief!

"for his/her religious beliefs"

dead wrong

read the documents on mormonthink - they made specific claims that, if true, there would be evidence for - AND they profited off of those claims

so... as long as TSCC has been telling the truth they should be A-ok

Answer me this, Disappointed: how many victims of real estate fraud were *forced* to give their money over? Weren't they all led to believe something was true with a certain promise, and then found out later that it wasn't? So tell me, how is this any different than that? Other churches let you just "believe" and don't go out of their way to get money from you. Mormons want you to "know" and will hound you for that 10%.

Wow!!!

Wow!!!!!!!!
Tom, you are my hero! Way to go!!!

I hate to be a pessimist, but I highly doubt Monson will ever go to London or say anything at all regarding these questions or the summons.

Do you know how much money the TSCC has to hire lawyers to kill this ?

Do you know how many LD$ lawyers would do it for free ?

Lawyers will fight over this till long after Monson is dead.


but I hope I'm wrong...

Please state your name and occupation for the record.

Thomas S Monson, prophet, seer and revelator, and sole owner of the Corporation of the First Presidency.


That should make for great television.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please state your name and occupation for the
> record.
>
> Thomas S Monson, prophet, seer and revelator, and
> sole owner of the Corporation of the First
> Presidency.


HA! Exactly. Yes!

Even though it's unlikely Monson will show up or be extradited to the U.K. to face this question, the legal drama played out in the press will be crushing. This is the biggest LDS news since I left in 2000. Thank you to all those involved in bringing this about.

My quarrel with the New Atheists aside, I hope very much Dawkins and crew pick up this story. They may peddle nothing more than crude, intellectualized bullsh*t, but they are masters at garnering publicity.

Get them on the phone! Get Bill Maher on the phone! This is huge! Thank you!!

Please let us know when this hits the papers/news media. That's the only way some Mormons will actually allow themselves to read it.

Are these the genuine summons letters. I can't say exactly but they don't look quite right to me, it could just be that things have been omitted but I don't know, something with them does not seem quite right. And I'm in the UK.

?

"Oh, us poor mormons, they're picking on us again. Now they're slandering our dear profit. It's SATAN!!!! Satan is on the loose, everybody grab your Books of Mormon and make a shield. This proves the church is true. Why would Satan go to these lengths if it wasn't true, blah, blah, blah...."

Yes, Tom, there are some people who will only dig in deeper, but they're a lost cause anyway. It's the people who might be sucked in by the dear sweet mishies who are more important. The younger generation who are internet savvy. The members on the fringe. They won't be able to keep themselves away from the story and will read the evidence against poor Tommy. That's why this is so very important. Getting the truth out there for those who aren't incurably blind and deaf.

This is a huge deal if TSM fails to appear and LDS Inc is subject to having their assets in the UK seized.

Which of course would bring on a renewed effort in the US for members to tithe more.

I hope the IRS watched this thing.

Well this just appears to be a publicity stunt, well done anointedone. If this could be actually punitive or unavoidable, how has it not been done to take down any church? Can't they just say that the impetus is on the donor to verify thei religion? This is disappointing, will likely be dismissed out of hand.

"will likely be dismissed out of hand"

if it's going down in front of a jury then the time for that has already passed

no matter how this plays out it will be fascinating to see how God's One True Prophet handles himself when given the opportunity to testify to the world

they send their kids to do their dirty work but they never speak publicly about their beliefs

if Tommy goes all "prophet" in court they will look like a ridiculous cult

if Tommy goes all squirmy and says crap like "depends what the definition of is, is" then Mormons will definitely take notice of how spineless and big business-ish TSCC is

if he doesn't show at all he will not look very prophet-like - it'll be hard for Mormons to read about prophets like Abinadi and such while watching their current prophet hide in his office

wow - someone in this thread is butthurt today...

Others have mentioned how Tommy still seems to be all there when in front of a teleprompter, but he stumbles and often seems lost when not reading a script. I think having him appear in court would be extremely embarrassing. Then again, what jury is going to convict a senile old man? I think he'll be dead before anyone gets him to appear in court.

Yup, I think he'll be dead in six months.

The same thing happened to Brigham Young when the heat got too close for comfort.

BY was poisoned - do you think TSCC wil hasten Tom's demise?

if tommy says I have crap in my depends........was how I first read that.......lol

It would be great to have some excommunicated historians show up at witnesses. They've seen things in the vault that the church now hides. The church also has at least one seer stone. Wouldn't you like to see Tommy do some seering? That is one of the claims the church makes, prophet, seer, revelator. Let's see him at work. That would be a first in my life time.

To read a seerstone, you need a hat first. Can someone go find a hat for this gentleman?

AzCaUt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can't they just say that
> the impetus is on the donor to verify their
> religion?

In 2012, I participated in a Dutch government investigation into cults and this is exactly what the investigators said. The Mormon truth claims are so utterly ridiculous that anyone can see it's nonsense. The fact that the Mormon church is so small (although the Mormons think otherwise) is a case in point.

AzCaUt, you fail to see the "Big Picture" because of your desire to minimize Tom's courageous battle
to push the cause of truth (and hopefully justice), a step or two, forward.
Don't you think Tom already realized the case might be dismissed.
Maybe he felt the effort was worth it because, even if justice wasn't served,
worldwide attention would be bought to bare on the dishonest, deceitful
and fraudulent practices of an evil cult. Attention that might impede TSCC's efforts
to sucker other innocent and uniformed people into its web of lies?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 01:10PM by heretic.

I just think, looking at the documents on the other website, this looks like a child put together some "hard" questions he had and put it in a document. This is just to get attention, but anybody that needed to read this, either won't read it or they will dismiss it as somebody who wanted to get attention for their website. I think the billboard was more effective than this will be.
Perhaps there is more to it, perhaps there are documents that prove Tommy acknowledged the falsehood of the church and still asked for more money. Perhaps Tommy will answer for his false teachings. But I would imagine these kind of things are often filed and nothing ever comes of it.
If this was not a publicity stunt, Tom should be commended for trying, but really, the document looks unprofessional, like a spam email.

I'm no legal expert, but in order for it to be fraud, wouldn't the prosecution have to prove that Monson doesn't actually believe what he preaches? Is it fraud to tell people something which you believe, but which isn't true?

This is what I think as well. If Thomas Monson can prove he genuinely believes those things, he will probably get away with it.

However, the statements are mostly factual things which have already been disproven, so perhaps Monson will have to prove he has know knowledge of those things being disproven, which might be difficult for some of the statements.

Way to go Tom! At least I would like them to lose their non-profit status in the UK, then in the rest of Europe...and I would love to hear in court (where he can't hide) his prophetic utterances...

Lawyers will be hired, lies will be denied, the "I dont know that we teach that card" will be played...

Those widows chickens have come home to roost Tommy!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 11:59AM by erictheex.

wow, a handful of Debbie downers already? Maybe they feel threatened or scared.

Perhaps people should remember what Tom did for LDS Inc, which I think involved accounting.

Perhaps Tom had a copy machine.

This could get very interesting.

If he doesn't show up, they can always seize the church's = his UK assets.

Bravo

Great work Tom as always...you are the man!

... aren't there certain legal protections (as there are in the US) which make prosecuting a church (or official of a church) for fraud--based on its teachings--difficult, if not impossible?

Whatever the case,

Many thanks, Tom, for your tireless efforts to get this issue going. Even if there is no conviction, the negative publicity against the Mormon church will be worth many millions of dollars/pounds/euros/etc.!!!

Thanks again,

: )

!!!!!!!!!Ay...caramba!!!!!!!!!

:)

Man, I wish this would be successful and completely dismantle the church.

But I know that even if the church manages to flub horribly and become a completely disavowed and illegal operation the UK (which, with their army of lawyers, won't happen), the church would still survive, even in secret.

Still....

I just went to mormonthink.com and am very skeptical about this. Besides the numerous misspellings and other errors in the Summons (including failing to capitalize "T" in Temple Street), the list of particulars are all protected religious claims. In the US, this Summons would be dismissed in one short Motion to Dismiss.

Is a real solicitor even involved? It looks like the work of an amateur.

This is the October Surprise????

ISn't the whole point that these lds church issues CAN be answered and proven but the church is unwilling to do so? That is awesome to me.

Also it will put Monson's competency on the line?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 12:10PM by stoppedtheinsanity.

Does Thomas Monson even have the mental capacity to appear in court and answer direct questions? I know there have been allegations about this health and cognitive decline. If he does appear, that would be must see TV.

Well, this is going to be very interesting... I, for one, can very much see why this has taken so long. I imagine this took a lot of work just to get this far and there's a lot more work to be done to see it through, one way or the other.

Congratulations!

If the complainants win their lawsuit, can the Church of England
be sued for claiming a guy died and then came back from life?

Jesus H christ!!! How dumb can people be!

it is NOT about religious claims of BELIEF. It is about MONETARY EXTORTION based on provable false HISTORICAL FACTS.

Just like If I sued someone for saying that coke grows hair and cures cancer. The salesman can believe it, but it can be proven false.

Exactly.

Persecution of the Church! Persecution of the Church!

This is the Scopes trial with Tea and Crumpets.

Beware the next William Jennings Bryan.

It is for the jury to determine whether this attack upon the Christian religion shall be permitted in the public schools of Tennessee by teachers employed by the State and paid out of the public treasury. This case is no longer local: the defendant ceases to play an important part. The case has assumed the proportions of a battle royal between unbelief that attempts to speak through so-called science and the defenders of the Christian faith. speaking through the legislators of Tennessee.

It is again a choice between God and Baal; it is also a renewal of the issue in Pilate's court. In that historic trial - the greatest in history - force, impersonated by Pilate, occupied the throne. Behind it was the Roman Government, mistress of the world, and behind the Roman Government were the legions of Rome. Before Pilate stood Christ, the apostle of love. Force triumphed; they nailed Him to the tree and those who stood around mocked and jeered and said "He is dead." But from that day the power of Caesar waned and the power of Christ increased. In a few centuries the Roman Government was gone and its legions forgotten; while the crucified and risen Lord has become the greatest fact in history and the growing Figure of all time.

Again force and love meet face to face, and the question, "What shall I do with Jesus." must be answered. A bloody, brutal doctrine - evolution - demands, as the rabble did 1,900 years ago, that He be crucified. That cannot be the answer of this jury, representing a Christian state and sworn to uphold the laws of Tennessee. Your answer will be heard throughout the world; it is eagerly awaited by a praying multitude. If the law is nullified, there will be rejoicing wherever God is repudiated, the Saviour scoffed at and the Bible ridiculed. Every unbeliever of every kind and degree will be happy. If, on the other hand, the law is upheld and the religion of the school children protected, millions of Christians will call you blessed and, with hearts full of gratitude to God, will sing again that grand old song of triumph:Faith of our fathers. living still,In spite of dungeon, fire and sword;O, how our hearts beat high with joy,Whene'er we hear that glorious word;
Faith of our fathers - holy faith - We will be true to thee till death!

I think it would be tremendous if this turned into a major PR nightmare for the LDS Church (corporate fraud that it is) that would be very educational for the public.

However, am I right to be skeptical that this will go anywhere? Why not sue all the churches, because they are all frauds in a way as well?

I wonder what Peggy Fletcher Stack of the Salt Lake Tribune would do with this information?

Few churches claim to be the only true and living church on the face of the earth based on outrageous claims that have been proven false. Many churches may claim to have the most correct doctrine, but there aren't really any claims made that can be tested.

This will at least force TSM to answer to these questions Tom and others have tried to get straight answers on for years. The answers will be on the record in a court of law. (I'm assuming that this will be part of public record)

I'm really interested in how the Church and TSM are going to approach this one. This may have possibly put them in a serious Catch-22

a) if they answer, they can't possibly answer truthfully because the stuff in the allegations has been dis proven in several arenas

b) Evade answering to the allegations. Then people will seriously wonder what they have to hide.

Wonder what kind of legal gymnastics they will come up with. Is Johnny Cochran in the house?

BTW, the address is wrong for TSM on the summons (if it matters). It's 47 SOUTH Temple St. (not Temple St.).

Just thought I'd point that out.

"Is Johnny Cochran in the house?"

They'd have to raise him from the dead. He passed away in 2005.

Yep, you got that right :)

Tom v. Tom.

May the better Tom prevail!

Wow - there it is! It will be interesting to follow this turn of events and the outcome thereof.

Darrow's Response:

"The trial at Dayton has done several things which are significant. Of the jurors who heard the case at Dayton only one of them had ever heard of evolution. Today in Dayton they are selling more books of evolution than any other kind, and the book shops in Chattanooga and other cities of the State are hardly able to supply the demands for works on evolution. The trial has at least started people to thinking."

This is so much better than I expected. Congratulations! Well done!

Okay, as I said, I only had a "bare bones Knowledge" of what was going down (Jesus [Smith] told me).

I'm forwarding this link to some in the media I know.

I think those on RFM who are similarly connected could do the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 12:40PM by SL Cabbie.

Excellent. I can't wait for major media coverage on this.

Way ahead of you, matey!

I feel a myocardial infarction coming on. (Monson's, not mine.)

"When presented with the the summons, Monson's only comment was, 'You hear that, Elizabeth?! I'm comin' to join you!' Monson appeared to be clutching his chest whilst looking skyward."

80 posts and counting! Fastest growing thread ever!

I wonder if he will try to plead insanity.

I had an impression from a still, small voice that the "Surprise" would be posted this morning--wait...that means.....the Church is TRUE!!

Seriously, though, things like wrong addresses and misspellings could be problematic, since TSCC folks are experts and picking on things like that; add in church lawyers undermining the suit's credibility and forget it.

However, I think the point may be that TSM is the president of a corporation operating worldwide, and, particularly in the UK, where the fraud may be shown....

The summons is from the court not Tom, the only thing that the minor issues might cause is corrective action against the clerk.

Thank you Tom! This is really fantastic. I'm so excited that the truth is coming out and TSCC is finally being held accountable.

I'm being cautiously optimistic. Of course this is long overdue, but it also seems too good to be true.

One thing is certain -- the cult is now in eternal damage control.

I do not buy into anything wholeheartedly at first glance. That being said, if it were possible to get TSM in a courtroom under oath, it would allow the critical question to be addressed:

Are there documents that refute or disprove claims of the TSCC?

If, when the 15 reach Apostleship, do they "let them in" on the secret....if so TSM would have to lie to maintain.

From that point forward (if he says there is no disproving evidence) then any proof linked to him from the past, could be the basis for a wider claim of fraud.

Just me speculating.

I doubt people get "let in" on the secret when they become Apostles.

I've thought about the possibility that it happens, but I came to the conclusion that it can't. Out of probably over 100 Apostles that we've had in the church, I'm sure at least ONE would have gone public about it if this happened.

Also, imagine how angry, betrayed, upset they'd be if they were believing members their whole lives, then they get called as an Apostle and told it was a lie, then expected to live it. The money and fame and power wouldn't make up for it. It would be horrible imo.

I'm sure some figure it out for themselves, but I doubt they're directly told it.

I know nothing about what standards apply in order to convict on fraud, but it will be interesting to watch him squirm, regardless.

Monson's choices are pretty limited:
1. Boldly go, and face the court...he'll lose here because he can't present any evidence of truth. A trial over testimony? That's fine, but testimony is pretend and money is real.
2. Reply through attorney's: "Not going." Weak...means he can't rest on the strength of his own convictions.
3. Reply through the press, and cry "religious freedom." Again, not the publicity the church wants, as a press-trial would be worse.

So, it is unlikely that the suit will go anywhere or that any damages will be assessed. But, it will be fun to watch him squirm.

Fantastic, would love to see them in Salt Lake held to account.

Good Luck Tom et al.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9EC3Gy6Nk

Happy Halloween, doubters!

Well played Mr. Phillips!

Best news ever. TSCC in damage control on an international scale.

Taking money from people while TSCC hides history to look better as a religion is fraud. When missionaries tell one story to promote the church to gain members and the truth is more sinister. I would call that fraud. When BKP says that history is not faith promoting and history is rewritten? That is fraud.


Maybe having the prophet being the sole in the corporation is not a good idea.

For sure, the proceedings are going to be interesting.

This is a good point. The difference between becoming mormon and becoming Catholic is that you have to go through a lot of hoops, attend classes, learn Catholic history, etc. in order to convert. It's even harder to convert to Judaism. The things you have to know.

It's EXACTLY the opposite in mormonism. They want to get you committed by telling you as little as possible. Even after you join, it's a constant game to hide all the little "flecks of history," (read: lies) from you. They like to tell you the nice little eternal families story, just don't ask any specifics about what you really have to do in order to enjoy that part of the religion.

It's totally about money and we all feel defrauded. No, I don't think the lawsuit will go anywhere, but I will get more information out there and possibly be the catalyst that will change the rule about civil marriages before temple sealings.

Question:

As pointed out on another forum site, could this summons force TSCC to open up financials through the "discovery" process (if there is one in the UK)?

It's an interesting tie-in to Jesus Smith's tax evasion point with regards to the church handbook for mission presidents, etc.

We really need a UK Barrister or UK law expert.

Surprise Party!! Confetti and cake to all!

That the LDS Legal Hive will issue a briefing to the court, indicating that health issues preclude TSM's attendance of the summoning on the given date.

After several requests for stays and continuances, said law team will send a team of lawyers to the UK, and probably hire under contract a local law firm in the UK, and present the court with reams of documents that dissemble and obfuscate (masked as evidence of course). Due to the vast nature of conflicting "evidence" presented to the court, any findings or rulings issued by the court will be indeterminate in scope and nature.

That's my guess, anyhoo.

I do think, however, that the negative, chronic, eye-popping publicity that something like this engenders in the global media will be a huge setback in the church's PR spin campaign.

Perhaps the few remaining doubters should remember that Tom has been fighting to get this case to court for a long time. He had to wait upon legal advice & a summons would not have been issued if there had been no case to answer. United States law is irrelevant in this case so let’s be clear about this, a summons has been issued because lawyers & court officials in this country have decided that there has been a clear & provable breach of UK law, there would no summons for fraud if that was not the case. Saying an arrest warrant MAY be issued is legal jargon only applicable should something completely unforeseen occur. Rest assured that if the court believes that Monson has a case to answer & he does not appear then a warrant for his arrest will be issued. There is an extradition treaty in force between our two countries & unless the LDS can present a very convincing case as to why Monson should not answer those charges then he will almost certainly be extradited.

This case has nothing to do with religious belief, it hinges on whether those beliefs were used for financial gain. Notice the phrase in the summons “might be untrue or misleading.” The LDS know full well that they are guilty of misleading people hence the sudden flurry of ‘essays’ designed to put a different face on things. Unfortunately for the LDS it’s rather like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The LDS will no doubt claim charity status in the United States in an attempt to make themselves untouchable but when this particular LDS ‘charity’ stone is turned over, & it will be, then a lot of unpleasant ‘worms’ will come crawling out.

If this fails to get the attention of the media and the public doesn't react with at least some interest, it will be the end of the notion that TSCC can be derailed.

IMO, this will be a small bump off course for the juggernaut that calls itself a church...