I was doing some researching and came across an article on the Pure Mormonism blog called "Best Evidence for the Book of Mormon", which outlines the theory that Book of Mormon geography fits better in a North American model. It claims this alternative geographical model is more consistent with Joseph Smith's own claims, falls in line with the location of Hill Cummorah, and is backed by evidence of some lost civilizations recently discovered in North America. This model supposedly helps explain the lack of DNA evidence linking South American peoples to the Middle East.

Does anyone know anything about this theory? I have to admit, the North American model has given me pause. However, I can't see that the idea has gained much traction within TSCC.

Has anyone on this board given this newer model any real consideration, and if so, what did you conclude? I'm looking for some insight. I don't want to give it much of my time and thought if I can learn from some of you who have already gone down that road and found it led nowhere.

Thanks for anything you can offer.

There's no evidence any North American natives ever used metal weapons, had Semetic DNA, used coins, raised wheat, rode horses, had any knowledge of the Hebrew or Egyptian language, had Jewish religious customs, etc. etc. etc. any more than the Central or South American natives did.

Sure, it fits better with what Joseph Smith said, and the actual text of the BoM, but that's it. The same lack of evidence that it all ever happened renders this theory just as dead on arrival as any of the other attempts to nail down the real-world geography of a fictional story.

Thanks, everyone. I will check out the links.

"more consistent with Joseph Smith's own claims" - that's one way to say it:

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm

That map fits right in with what I was taught as a child in the sixties. No one said back then that the Hill Cumorah might be located elsewhere. Only after Cumorah was found to be devoid of artifacts did the "limted geography model" emerge. Liars use new lies to cover for old lies.

I am a child of the 70's and at that time Hill Cumorah was the Hill Cumorah. The native populations of North and South America were the descedents of the Lamanites. No 2 ways about it. I also learned that Joe had only one beloved wife, Emma. I can not forget to mention that Paul Dunn was a baseball star turned war hero. In all fairness, I stopped paying attention to the church around 1980. I actually know more about the church now then I did 30 years ago.

Wow I was reading this wondering if I had wrote it as it is almost identical to my life. I agree completely about what was absolutely taught about the location of Cumorah, who the Lamanites were, how JS had only one wife and Dunn was a talk circuit superstar.

Now we have evolved to the Vanishing Geography Model, The Vanishing Lamanite Theory, JS had multiple wives apparently for multiple purposes (Certainly not because he couldn't keep it in his pants...uh huh!) and the Vanishing Paul Dunn.

Amazing the rate at which things are vanishing in the Morg these days.

You can read about it at

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon534.htm

Great-thanks.

Got to firmlds.org and get it from the guy leading the charge. He has been laughed at as a crackpot but if the BofM was true this makes the most sense to me.

"I don't want to give it much of my time and thought if I can learn from some of you who have already gone down that road and found it led nowhere."

LOL. Led nowhere? Does the talking rock in the hat give you pause?

Indeed. :) It would take an awful lot of evidence for me to reconsider my current thinking, but I never want to close myself off to new information like I did for so long in the church. I'm sure this will be yet another thing I can quickly dismiss, but I felt like I should at least look at it.

Recently discovered "lost civilizations" is not true at all. The promoters of the North American geography have misrepresented scientists, used known hoax artifacts, adopted young earth creationist arguments, etc.

Here are some additional links on why it does not work for archaeology and DNA:

Statement about "The Lost Civilizations of North America" DVD
http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/statement-about-the-lost-civilizations-of-north-america-dvd/

"In our opinion, there is no compelling archaeological or genetic evidence for a migration from the Middle East to North America a few thousand years ago, nor is there any credible scientific evidence that Old World civilizations were involved in developing Native American cultures in pre-Columbian times."

Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 35.5, September/October 2011
Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part One: An Alternate Reality
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 35.6, November/December 2011
Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_two_false_messages/

Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 36.1, January/February 2012
Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages/

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to respond as I was particularly interested in more information about the supposed "lost civilizations".

Check out Simon's blog here:
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/

If you look at the range of entries, you will see that he demolishes both the LGT and Heartland theories.

Will do! Thanks. This will help me when the topic inevitably comes up around my mother. She's very "into" all of the latest and greatest theories aimed to prove the Book of Mormon is true. Yes, I believe that means she's a closet doubter. . .so it always helps if I know something about whatever she happens to bring up.

No tapirs in North America...

Lol!

This always bothered me when I was a TBM.

One of the things that I did to entertain myself was look at the maps in the back of the Bible of the path Jesus took, cyprus, circling around, etc.

But there never was anything like that in the Book of Mormon, and I was trying to figure out how that happened. I was taught the "central America" thing, but then suddenly Moroni teleports to Hill Cumora in New York at the very end? It never made sense to me.

If I were Mormon I would be limiting the Book of Mormon to New York State. They actually need to find a place with as little evidence as possible against them because they can't prove anything with the evidence at hand:

http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/

The Book of Mormon depends on rejecting evolution completely for it to be valid. If people believe the earth was created 6000 years ago then the DNA evidence against the BOM disappears. If one accepts evolution then the Book of Mormon is simply a fraud.

The "Heartland model" is proposed by Rod Meldrum. He put out at least one book I know of ("Prophesies and Promises", which makes it very clear that Joseph intended to claim he knew about at least some BOM geography through revelation, a fact that FAIR hates) and a series of DVDs on DNA evidence for the BOM. He claimed DNA supports his heartland theory. FAIR did an in depth review of that DVD series. They tore his whole theory to shreds.

http://www.fairmormon.org/reviews-of-dna-evidence-for-book-of-mormon-geography

almostthere Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "Heartland model" is proposed by Rod Meldrum.
> He put out at least one book I know of
> ("Prophesies and Promises", which makes it very
> clear that Joseph intended to claim he knew about
> at least some BOM geography through revelation, a
> fact that FAIR hates) and a series of DVDs on DNA
> evidence for the BOM. He claimed DNA supports his
> heartland theory. FAIR did an in depth review of
> that DVD series. They tore his whole theory to
> shreds.
>
> http://www.fairmormon.org/reviews-of-dna-evidence-
> for-book-of-mormon-geography

Meldrum can reject FAIR's criticism because like many evangelical Christians he rejects the idea that humans have been here more than 6,000 years. FAIR seems to be undermining itself by accepting a view of evolution which is opposed to what most Mormons believe with regards to the age of humanity.

It's also fun that Meldrum seems to be calling FAIR and the Maxwell Institue apostates! Also, he has a whole page of "testimonies" from Mormons about his DVDs. Those testimonies, when taken in context of FAIR's rebuttal, really hurt the "knowledge from the Holy Ghost" argument, too.

...the fact two apologetic groups which believe in the BOM have vastly different theories about where it took place. If Mopologists can't even agree that the BOM events occurred in some general area, they can't legitimately assert that they occurred at all.

That's the second most important thing. It doesn't matter if they agree. It doesn't matter if someone found a rusty sword 2,000 years old. It doesn't matter if this North American BOM Geography theory aligns the Book of Mormon descriptions with land in North America.

There is no "evidence" for lineuponline to consider. There's no "I need to be open to evidence and not closed off like I was when I was in the LDS church."

When a guy tells you a story about the creation of the universe after looking at a rock in his hat, just enjoy a great big belly laugh. Now, for sh*ts and giggles you can dissect things, but all the talk, analysis, reasoning, and evidence doesn't mean squat because rocks don't talk.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2014 10:20PM by thingsithink.

The North American model requires you to deny the historicity of the Noachian flood. Making Joseph Smith a liar, and all four of the standard works fraud as well.

So no, the north american model is pure heresy and it's proponents should be excommunicated.

It's not a "newer model."

It was the original model Joseph Smith used and which was believed by Mormons for a very long time.

Of course the North American geography fits better.... because the BOM is a work of fiction. As such it stands to reason that JS and friends would use a setting that they had some familiarity with.