I have been out of the church since 1986. And I remember one of the teachings that Jesus and lucifer were brothers in the spirit world. This is pure blasphemy in judeo- christian doctrine. I don't ever here anyone ever bring that up around here . Just curious.

Yes they do...which prolly means luci can get into heaven because most brothers have a secret handshake :)

I would have just chosen the shake-hand half-hug pat on the back myself...

Yes, I remember a little while backbiting "got out" in the news about it and all the Mormons were in a tizzy trying to defend themselves.

I don't like to be touched. Someone tried to pull me through any veil and I'd probably punch them somewhere delicate.

Wow unbelievable, they want so much to be viewed as " just another Christian church." but when Christians or any one with any judeo - christian background here's this it is such a turnoff.they really don't know this alone makes them heretics in the eyes of the world.

Wow just wow!
Starry

I could be wrong on this about you. But your question shows that you probably were not very deep into Mormonism. I've yet to meet an exmormon who feels strongly about this "Jesus and Lucifer are brothers" issue that some people in the world of Christianity like to bring up in hopes of putting down Mormonism. IMO this is a failure strategy because Mormons have a very negative opinion of Lucifer/Satan. Any Christian who would actually take the time to honestly understand what Mormons have taught in their "War in Heaven" theology wouldn't be making a big deal over this. If anything the bringing up of such a silly issue is counterproductive. If you want to attack Mormons then the way to do it effectively IMO is as follows:

1. Attack the Big 15 as being dishonest and corrupt. They hide their finances, historical information, and play coverup games to this day.

2. The Book of Mormon is and always has been fiction, period.

3. The Book of Abraham is fiction and bogus. We know what is in the papyri and we know its nothing related to Abraham or anytime within his era. And the church keeps the papyri hidden.

4. Polygamy Coverups and Whitewashing.

5. Temple Ceremonies changes and Masonic plagiarism.

The list could go on and on about things where you can effectively attack Mormonism. But this "Jesus and Lucifer are brothers" attack is counterproductive.

I agree that those arguments are more productive to a rational thinking person. But to brainwashed TBMs they refuse to acknowledge any of these things because I probably heard it from some bitter anti Mormon. Going after theology, for me at least was the only effective argument against my family because they couldn't deny the teachings. They were at least willing to hear me out about the theological qualms I had, whereas if I even mentioned JS writing the Bom himself they got very defensive and upset instantly. Now if your talking to a nevermo, exmo, or someone investigating the church, the practical arguments would be much more effective I agree.

Yeah, but in reality which is worse?

Kolobians believe: Elohim is the father of our spirits. Jehova, Lucifer, and all of us are brothers and sisters. So yes, Lucifer is Jehova's brother, just like he's our brother.

Christians believe: God knows the future, and chose to create an angel called Lucifer that he knew in advance would become the devil, and did so anyway, and chooses not to destroy him even though he wreaks havoc on all our lives.

This whole "mormons believe jesus and lucifer are brothers" thing was the type of "anti-mormon" argument that kept me in church for so long. It's so easy to turn it around on christians. It makes their god seem so evil, and the kolobian god more forgiving.

yeah. just got off the phone with monson.

he said that "they were actually...HALF brothers. that's why one is blond on the pictures. the other has brown hair with the "handlebar" mustache. see? that settles it."

(to be continued)

because...We're ALL 'spirit children of HF ... and one of his wives (not named)!

It was the funky doctrines that attracted me in the first place, expecting something weird and different. It was the tedious normality and hypocrisy (and lack of knowledge of these doctrines in the members) that pushed me away. I can do bored all by myself.

Sorry...contrary mood.
Who gives a shit if it's blasphemy?
Blaspheme away.

Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
Jesus and Lucifer were brothers...x 100

That's one of the WEAKEST arguments against Mormonism.

All they're saying is that ALL of us were siblings in the premortal existence, Jesus was the firstborn and Lucifer was a "son of the morning" meaning up there in seniority, until he tried to take over and rebelled. 1/3 of everyone followed him and to this day are haunting spirits on earth. So Lucifer was Jesus' brother, your brother, my brother, everyone's brother.

It's STUPID to say mormonism is false because of that "blasphemy".

No, Mormonism is false because Joseph Smith lied about seeing God and Jesus, he and his collaborators manufactured the Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP, they made up the restoration of the priesthood, borrowing heavily from contemporary religion. Mormonism is false for one simple reason...it never happened.

Problem is, the same is almost certainly true of ALL religions. The reason I'm being so beligerant is that I HATE it when one religion calls foul on another, because they're BOTH full of shit.

"Blaspheme" is a lame excuse.

I'm sorry but not everyone is willing to just give up on God and the Bible because they found Mormonism to be full of shit. For those who do believe in the Bible, then it is blasphemy and if that is the reason that causes someone to leave TSCC then we should be glad for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 05:40AM by americangirl406.

My comment was inappropriate because the point of the thread was that according to meanstream Christian theology, it's blasphemy. My comment was basically who-cares, when it should have been how-so. I was wrong to say who-cares. But I would still like to know, honesty, how-so.

It's ok :) I agree with a poster below that saying they were brothers implies a lot of other things and this coupled with many other LDS teachings like eternal progression and polygamy in heaven tend to make Christiana cry blasphemy.

amos2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry...contrary mood.
> Who gives a shit if it's blasphemy?
> Blaspheme away.
>
> Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
> Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
> Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
> Jesus and Lucifer were brothers...x 100
>
> That's one of the WEAKEST arguments against
> Mormonism.
>
> All they're saying is that ALL of us were siblings
> in the premortal existence, Jesus was the
> firstborn and Lucifer was a "son of the morning"
> meaning up there in seniority, until he tried to
> take over and rebelled. 1/3 of everyone followed
> him and to this day are haunting spirits on earth.
> So Lucifer was Jesus' brother, your brother, my
> brother, everyone's brother.
>
> It's STUPID to say mormonism is false because of
> that "blasphemy".
>
> No, Mormonism is false because Joseph Smith lied
> about seeing God and Jesus, he and his
> collaborators manufactured the Book of Mormon,
> D&C, and PoGP, they made up the restoration of the
> priesthood, borrowing heavily from contemporary
> religion. Mormonism is false for one simple
> reason...it never happened.
>
> Problem is, the same is almost certainly true of
> ALL religions. The reason I'm being so beligerant
> is that I HATE it when one religion calls foul on
> another, because they're BOTH full of shit.
>
> "Blaspheme" is a lame excuse.


I agree. This business of using God Myths to disprove or argue other God Myths is not about anything but the promoting the notion that their God Myth is the only true right one and everyone else is going to some kind of hell, or darkness, or spend life after death in some horrible eternity. It's a long used ploy to control people's behavior and extract money. No money, no churches!!

I was mormon first why would what other religious indoctrination states in total opposition (of dark and light) from the metaphysical or spiritual conceptualization of the origins of power- matter to me? The origins of indoctrination for tribal control in a protestant or any system - does not make the mormon concept bad- the logic that mormonism is bad or worse simply because it differs from americana protestant is irrelevant actually (at least to me.)

I I really like heavenly mother. I wanted more of an open female component to god/ goddess option in my religion actually. I harvested that concept of Mary from catholicism but the origin of my love of the female aspect of god, of seeing love in me as a female- was in heavenly mother. What a bother no one will let you publically pray to her or honor her in the mormon church.

I don't, I'm not impressed by arguments about why I should like or dislike anything because of how that idea compares to something irrelevant to me.

Maybe, it works for someone else. Someone who can get all worked up about how they are, different. and god knows you don't want that- to be different. If there's anything we learned in modern mormonism- don't be different. heel toe walk in line where your garments all the time - speak the same talk. Use the correct words. Avoid all profane verbs. Got it.

That is not a good argument, about avoiding being different- but this time- philosophically- with yet another set of folks' thinking system they teach their young.

Does someone know rhetoric? What is that kind of argument called?

Didn't president Hinckley say I don't recall when asked that question in the 60 minutes interview?

Because I threw the baby out with the bath water, I have a question!
If this is such blasphemy, what is the mainstream non-blasphemous origins of satan, lucifer? I actually don't have any idea. I mean no offense, please inform me?

Most Christian religions that I know of don't believe in a "pre-existence" like the Morg does. That's another thing that sets them apart from Christian religions. It's not just saying that Jesus and Satan are brothers, it's saying that there was a pre-existence for everyone on earth that some Christians object to.

Origins of Satan/Devil/Lucifer, I think you'll get different opinions. Some Christian's don't believe an actual person/being/thing exists, and that it is a sort of generic term for "evil." Others (more fundamentalist) believe in the fire and brimstone version, and like Mormons, that he is out there at every corner trying to tempt you.

So, I'm thinking it's one of those subtle shifts in doctrine. A link was posted on RFM not too many weeks ago. Maybe someone can come up with it?

I think those were related to becomings Gods/eternal progression.

e.p. is such a well-understood, well-taught teaching/doctrine, Anyone beyond Crymary would know of its Centrality to Mormonism.

He is supposed to represent what happens when pride gets in the way of obedience.

That is his real symbolic power in Mormonism.

Having him be Jesus' brother and giving him a LOTR sounding title like "Lord of the Morning Wood" or some shit like that is supposed to really drive the point home that even the "best of us" can fall if we use our brains rather than just obeying someone else' fucktarded plan.

However, like most of Mormonism, Lucifer becomes more of a sympathetic figure upon further analysis where Elohim and Jehova are just dick holes.

Ha, that's funny, Raptor. Lord of the Morning Wood. He gives it to you and then whispers in your ear: "Why not touch it for a spell?"

This is standard doctrine.

It comes out of these beliefs
They believe in a: "Council in Heaven" and a "War in Heaven"..

Check out references in Gospel Principles:
http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html

There are: Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and D&C and Bible references

Just shows what crazy stuff people will come up with when isolated from the rest of civilization for a couple hundred years.

I love how the mormon religion thinks it has to have an answer/explanation for everything.

IMO, there is a God, but He or It isn't nearly as concerned about humans as humans think He/It is.

Don't forget that another one of the brothers of jesus and lucifer is:

the holy ghost

It's funny that TSCC is "weeding" or "taking this stuff out" of the doctrine. The old books have it, the new ones wont. Makes me wish I had kept all that stuff from when I was married to a TBM. I would have the old.

There will one day be a whole generation that will say "it's not in the books so it's not true". If some of you don't keep your original books, you'll have no proof at all. It will conveniently cease to exist.

neverconverted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's funny that TSCC is "weeding" or "taking this
> stuff out" of the doctrine. The old books have it,
> the new ones wont. Makes me wish I had kept all
> that stuff from when I was married to a TBM. I
> would have the old.
>
> There will one day be a whole generation that will
> say "it's not in the books so it's not true". If
> some of you don't keep your original books, you'll
> have no proof at all. It will conveniently cease
> to exist.

It is still 100% doctrine. Check out the Gospel Principles link I gave above.
I think part of it is in this link, or else on another page.
http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

Considering there are probably 70 Bible translations, many that do not agree,it's always going to be a problem getting a definite Christian doctrine. Faith, works, believe, they all change with time and the preacher.

It is just as ridiculous as the idea of virgin birth, talking snakes, or religion in general.

Ummmmm

considering that 'we're all Brothers & Sisters' ... is there going to be another explanation of where Devil/Satan came into being?

Can't think of one...'off the top of my head' anyway...

Two brothers are at the table eating Jedi crunch cereal. The older brother makes faces at the younger one.

Jesus: Mom, Satan's looking at me.

Satan: Am not.

Jesus: Are too!

Satan: R2D2, diaper boy.

Jesus: Mom!

Mrs. God: Will you two knock it off? I have to make potato salad for 10 billion pre-mortals. I don't have time for these childish battles.