Is it really, truly a cult?

If you think so, what makes you think that?

When I was baptized, I didn't believe everything, but now I'm starting to, even though the logical side of my brain says not to.

I'm in a truly great ward..the people are not judgmental or mean for the most part. In fact,they have been nothing but supportive and kind from my baptism until now.

Still, I can't explain what is going on in my head or th confusion.

Am I really being brainwashed by a cult?

YES IT IS A CULT. Yes you are being brain washed. The thing to remember is that most of those really nice people in your ward are so brainwashed that they don't know what they are doing.

http://freedomofmind.com/Services/help1.php

Look at the whole site, but go down to bottom of the linked page and click on "Frequently Asked Questions."

Steve Hassan has a couple of good books. Go to the library. Google cults.

Look at facts and not your feelings. Any psychologist will tell you that relying on feelings alone to make decisions will get you in a lot of trouble.

Do some reading on the subject and be as detatched as possible as you complare what the books say to what happens with missionaries and ward interaction.

Get out and attend churches once in a while for a basis of comparison.

Do you understand the "milk before meat" tactic? It means to slowly indoctrinate newcomers so they don't know what's happening and when the crazy doctrine is indroduced, they'll swallow it whole.

Adult converts aren't babies they don't need baby cereal and straned babanas. No one hides steak from babies just because they don't have teeth.

Mormon God requires 10% of your income and some secret code words and handshakes before He will let you back in to live with him.

What about that DOESN'T sound like a cult?

I remember asking that same question!

Even after I found out the truth about Joseph Smith and church history, and about the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham being false--I still could not believe it is a cult. It is so heartbreaking to admit that I was born and raised--and brainwashed in a cult for my entire life.

You will need time to process this, in your head. You might benefit from reading Steve Hassan. Also, a poster on here named "FreeAtLast" and Richard Packham's website. It's late, and I don't have their web addresses handy. Anyway, as you study how cults operate, and how they manipulate their members, and how cults are focused on money, you will come to your own conclusion, when you are ready. Your future children will be effected by your decision, so weigh the evidence carefully.

Above all, FOLLOW YOUR HEART. The Mormon cult teaches that if your gut instincts go against the cult, then your instincts are of the devil. The Mormons do not want you to follow your heart--you are to follow the prophet instead. The Mormons don't want you going onto the internet, and exploring websites such as this, or reading "outside" material, or attending other churches. Other churches are more loving and more uplifting, and they give more service to the community (instead of service to the LDS organization.) Mormons use fear and guilt to keep you from knowing that the world outside of Mormonism can be wonderful!

In a way, you have answered your own question: "Still, I can't explain what is going on in my head or the confusion." Confusion is a red flag. Confusion means that the Mormon religion doesn't make sense. Confusion means that you need more information. Take it slow--discovering the truth about Mormonism is like having the rug pulled out from under you. Remember, all this is not your fault.

Welcome to RFM.

"Your future children will be effected by your decision"

I like that part of the sentence because isn't that just another sign that it is a cult? You can't even get involved without your family being dragged into it.

You're not being brainwashed by a cult. And it's somewhat difficult to call mormonism some kind of cult. Perhaps the early church could have been called that, but the mormon church has been putting all of its energy into being mainstream. Just think of the Mormon church as Scientology. When you're new, everything is basic usual stuff. Once you've been in long enough to get your temple recommend and actually start participating in the temple ceremonies, everything gets crazy. If it's your cup of tea, have at it...but it is all far removed from reality.

Biomed Wrote:
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> Just think of the Mormon church as Scientology.

And you don't think Scientology is a cult?

See this website, particularly the part about mind control. There are many points that will seem familiar to anyone who has spent a significant amount of time with the church.

http://www.howcultswork.com/

For example:

Deception: "Milk before meat" plus all the information that the church hides from its members (see the MormonThink website) http://mormonthink.com/
Exclusivism: "I know that the church is true," plus informal shunning of apostates and nonmembers
Fear and Intimidation: Tithing as "fire insurance," intrusive bishop interviews, disfellowshipment and excommunication, gossip
Love Bombing and Relationship Control: Constant meetings about inactives and efforts to bring them back, including pestering of those inactives; fellowshipping new members, instant church friends, excluding "unworthy" parents from their own child's wedding
Information Control: The church warns against looking at so-called anti-Mormon materials.
Reporting structure: Information that members give in confidence to church leaders is often leaked.
Time Control: The three hour block, callings and meetings that take up loads of time, VT/HT, etc. Constant demands for your time to the point that members often have little to talk about apart from church matters.

Also, pressure selling (the insistent demand by the missionaries to get baptised ASAP, the commitment pattern that they are taught.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 04:23AM by summer.

If you believe that the only way god lets people into heaven is if they know four secret handshakes, it's not a cult.

If you believe the only way to learn the four secret handshakes is to give 10% of your gross income for the full financial year, then it's not a cult.

If you believe that you have to have a temple recommend to get into heaven and to get one you have to give 10% of your gross income for the full financial year continuously, year in year out, then it's not a cult.

If you believe god restored his church through a guy that wanted to have sex with lots of women, some married to other men, and teenage girls, similar to David Koresh, then it's not a cult.

If you feel comfortable singing "Praise to the Man" who taught those secret handshakes and married all those girls, then it's not a cult.

Good people can be members of cults, but the cults are still cults. People in cults don't believe they are in cults. People in cults can recognize other cults are cults and still don't think they are in cults. Know any scientologists?

I was a convert too, so I know that it needs a while before you start to look behind the curtain.

up 'til now you will have been fed the 'milk' and it will take a long time before you get to see any 'meat'.
Even then everything will be sanitised and passed 'fit for mormon consumption' before its handed out to you

for example, you may have lessons about joseph Smith's **martyrdom** in carthage jail..... but it's doubtful you'll see any images of whiskey, joseph smith weilding a gun, or even any mention of the root cause of Smith being in jail (destruction of a printing press because the newspaper was revealing details of polygamous practices)

one of the definitions of a 'cult' is a sect which attempts to use propaganda about it's leaders, and prevent it's own members looking too deeply into the background of the sect.

...a cult uses "extremism, mind control, authoritarianism and secrecy"
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/post/the-mormon-church-and-the-medias-cult-box/2011/07/19/gIQAZgj9NI_blog.html)

Well, does it?

The only way to tell for sure is to ask questions or be disobedient.

is controlling. Call it a cult or not, but the fact is, if there were satisfactory ANSWERS, questions would be welcomed.

Since there AREN'T satisfactory answers, the solution is to squelch questioning and strongly discourage access to information that would generate questions. ("anti-mormon" material).

Do you realize how insane that is? An organization actually convincing it's members that they should NOT read stuff that they readily admit could cause people to leave? You'd think people involved in ANY organization would immediately want to know what that information was, when they are investing such a huge portion of their lives (and money) in it.

Yet the members deliberately avoid it, labeling it as "lies", even though they don't know what it is. They believe the "spirit" will withdraw and they will be left in Satan's power, just for asking the questions.

It's just weird.

One of my favorite statements is "The truth can withstand scrutiny".

Lies, however, require ignorance and credulity to maintain faith.

... that micro-manages its followers to the point of dictating what type of underwear is appropriate has to be a cult.

Timothy

You are in a tightly controlled environment from which you are not allowed to leave. That's LDS, Inc. at its worst.

Everyday Mormonism is not as cult-like, but if you go down the list of cult characteristics, you find that the majority apply to it.

Defining things with terminology can have the effect of pigeon-holing the thing being defined, and the definition can become the driver. In such a case we often bend our observation to fit the definition. This is something to be aware of to make sure we're not doing it.

If you look at the psychological definition of cult - there can be some wiggle room depending on what ward you are in.

My wards growing up fit the cult definition far better than what the OP's sound like.

But, you can't get away from the mission field being a cult. It fits every psychological definition out there.

And what's tricky is that these RMs become the future leaders of the church.

So, your individual ward may not seem like a cult - but the missionaries of the church are definitely in one - and the leadership is incredibly authoritarian.

Let's also not forget the racist, sexist, homophobic teachings that come from the leaders.

So, again, while your ward may be cool and filled with cool people who aren't racist, sexist, homophobes - they are in fact in apostasy from the teachings of the 15.

So...........

Mormon have a supreme leader that is not accountable to the membership

Mormons believe they alone have secret knowledge to gain access to God.

Mormons believe every single person must become a Mormon to live with God

Mormon believe they must learn secret handshakes and passwords to get back into gods presence. And they wear robes, veils and green aprons while doing it.

Mormons believe you must be one of them to have "true happiness"

Mormons have a dress code

Mormon have a food code

Mormon consecrate all they own to the church

Mormons are told on what day to fast

Mormons are told what building and what time to attend church and are not allowed to attend any other and fully participate.

Mormons require you pay $$ for saving ordinances of Baptism and Endowment and sealings

Mormon church has zero financial transparency

Mormons believe every single person ever born must believe in Joseph Smith or they can not live with God again.

So what makes you think Mormonism is not a CULT?

The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own.

Seriously, I think a religion to one person may be a cult to another depending on how they internalize the teachings. When a person becomes radicalized in their religion, that religion had cult control on that person.

(who was it said that....?)

Get out while you can. Phase two of the indoctrination is chanting in a circle with 12 other people while dressed in robes and veils and green aprons while raising your hands to the heavens.

If you reach phase three you get to have your wife wash your feet.....and you are guaranteed to be a god.

Everyone is nice until you go to the temple, their goal right now is to continue being nice and showing you how wonderful it is to get you to the temple. Once that hurdle is reached, they will stop "fellowshipping" you because you will be one of them. Then you will see..

Even though I was a member my entire life, the final realization was when I found out about all the creepy rituals and sick stuff in the temple! That was it for me, no way that could be true and that same day I happened to look up definition of cult and guess what... definition fit like a glove. I felt so dumb for not seeing it sooner

I think the quote, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking stops" says a lot about the power of mind control.

Anonfornow: I totally understand what your thinking and feeling. I made my discovery in March this year. I am still having panic attacks and nightmares that I am going to hell for turning my back on the morg.

My conscious logical person, however, can see the transparent lies and contradictions within the doctrine and history of the church. I used to make excuses for the church and think that there had to be an explanation for why the mountain meadows masacre and polygamy etc...

Like a good detective/scientist, I objectively weighed all the facts and discovered who was really lying to me.

I have spoken with Richard Packham and I have read all his research on his website. Even if only half his facts are true, the church is a total crock. I don't believe Richard or anyone like him have an axe to grind. The facts speak for themself and the church knows best to have a lesson on polygamy and polyandry in Sunday School. It would be the death of their attendance and membership.

An old professor of mine at Georgetown University is an expert on cults and is regularly "brought in" to evaluate organizations in order to determine their "statuses" as cults. She defines cults as having "evil at the core" - meaning they must commit real crimes in the course of their religious processes against their followers in order to control them for which their leaders/members would be arrested. With that, she believes that the LDS church is no longer a cult but that it once was when it was committing documented criminal acts (mountain meadows, polygamy, destruction of property etc.)

This definition may not sit well with most people here because most on RfM are inclined to define TSCC as "evil to the core." I agree a bit with my professors sentiments, but her definition gives a whole lot of delusion a free ride. On one hand ChurchCo may drive people bat shit crazy, but they don't kidnap; TSCC offers a smorgasbord of whacky delusions served up as gospel, but they do not force you to believe it. Where it gets complicated (and insidious IMHO) is when you consider the size of the enterprise and then lay the paradigm of a real culture on top (19th Century Utah religious culture.)

All that said I do not believe it is a cult, but is a giant pain in the ass and Mormons may be more steeped in delusions that other religious people.

Covering up child sexual assault among members and committing it in bishop interviews.

Visa, passport, tespassing, harassment law violations, libel, elder financial abuse, and covering up current day polygamists within wards and in cults in areas dominated by mormons.

Cheryl Wrote:
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> Covering up child sexual assault among members and
> committing it in bishop interviews.
>
> Visa, passport, tespassing, harassment law
> violations, libel, elder financial abuse, and
> covering up current day polygamists within wards
> and in cults in areas dominated by mormons.


Even if you had the resources you simply could not sue the Mormon church in civil court on the basis that the church sanctions and engages in these practices wholesale and win. Trying to convince someone otherwise simply makes your anti-Mormon bias stink to high heaven. If you wish to use the word "cult" in it's perjorative sense (as used to describe the Heavens Gate Cult of 1997 where everyone ate jello shots tainted with poison and died) then you need to remove the subjectivity and emotion from your statement and make a better argument. And I say this not because I disagree with you, but because you simply cannot get to people properly when you use an provocative word and do not fully grasp the meaning of the word. We want people to stop believing in silly Mormonism and the only way to do that is through reason.

But do go ahead and try.

I have no stake in what people believe and think you're rude to call people "silly."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 03:15PM by Cheryl.

I don't care what the label is.
I just want them to leave me and my family alone.

In my case, stalking laws could be used against them,
So I call them stalkers.

Yes, it's definitely a cult. Yes, it's definitely a business scam, & a ponzi scheme.

What is your definition of a cult?

How do you differentiate an organized religion from a cult? Pretty much any religion requires you to live some level of standard of moral code with penalties of some kind for not living that standard. Pretty much any religion has some time of authoritative hierarchy where the members adhere to this authority.

Arguably the Mormon church was much more cultish in the past than today.

Some things where Mormonism is perhaps more cultish than your normal Christian religion:
- 1) Callings - if you receive a "calling" it is considered to be an assignment directly from God. You technically have the choice whether to accept and calling and can resign from a calling, but you are made to feel like you don't have a choice in the matter. So the norm is to accept the calling you don't want and then do a half-ass job at it until they release you.

- 2) Temple - There are two aspects here. One is the "secret" nature and that only "worthy" people can attend. You can find the entire ceremony on the Internet so it's not that secret. The more problematic is perhaps 2 of the covenants you make in the temple:
a) That you will sacrifice everything you possess even your life if necessary for the building up of the church.
b) That you consecrate everything you own to the church. In other words you promise that if the church asks for any of your possessions you will give it to them.

Now in practice the church doesn't actually ask for any of these things and they are more artifacts from when things were much more cultish. Again everyone promises to do these things but most can't be bothered to even spend an hour a month to go home teaching of visiting teaching. Or when they ask for volunteers to do things, no none volunteers. So in practice it's not all that cultish.

3) Strong central leadership. The Mormon church probably has the strongest central leadership of any religion with millions of members. Every ward is theoretically taught the same material in every week in Sunday school, etc. Also the local priesthood leaders are considered to have pretty strong authority as representing God. The local leadership mostly becomes problematic when you get a bishop who is a jerk and/or who abuses his authority.

4) Public humiliation for not being worthy. If your bishop decides you aren't worthy, you don't get to take the sacrament and you have to be humiliated as everyone around you watches you skip it. You don't get to attend family events in the temple. If you are a priesthood holder, you are humiliated when you don't get to baptize & ordain your kids.

5) Pressure for male 19 year olds to give up 2 years of their lives as missionaries. Of course this is "volunteer", but it's not really all that volunteer.

I don't really agree on the whole the Mormon church brainwashes you concept. Any religion is going to teach what they believe to be true and ask you to accept it on faith.

Pretty much all you really hear from a practical standpoint is: read your scriptures, say your prayers, serve others, attend the temple, go to church, Jesus loves you, be kind to others, love God & others, pay your tithing. You hear this over and over again. Occasionally you'll hear about writing in your journal, food storage or genealogy. Hearing this for 3 hours every Sunday gets awfully boring, but really it's pretty much the summation of all you ever talk about.

Also it's hard to complain of tithing as being cultish since it's biblical. The only possible argument is that it is a requirement to attend the temple.

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking is it a cult you should be asking is it true? I would submit although there are thousands of religions out there in the world they are very few with as much evidence that it is not true as the Mormon church - largely because the Mormon church is so new and has so much written recent history. Just poke around on the internet for a bit and you will find plenty of evidence to conclude it could not possibly be true (20truths.info is a good place to start.)

Also of note, there was a recent study that people who are regularly involved in religion are more happy than those who aren't independent of the religion. The reason for this is that their findings is the by far #1 in how happy someone is is the quality and quantity of connections with other people. And being involved in a religion helps you have more connections with other people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 03:24PM by ronas.

Mormonism teaches KNOWLEDGE to children. Not faith.

They teach children that the beliefs are FACTS. And they do it not just at church for three hours, but for family home evening, home teaching visits, mutual, seminary, etc.

For adults who convert, I would agree with brainwashing being a different ball game. But not for children.

Children are brainwashed.

I agree with your points.

And this differs from other religions how?

However, some relgions focus more on faith and doubt than others.

Some religions don't focus as much on literalism.

So the level of brainwashing may vary.

Agreed.

So is it still brainwashing when the person doing the brainwashing fully believes what they are teaching?

Another question would be:

Which is more insidious:

A brainwashed fanatic brainwashing other children, or someone who doesn't really believe in what they are teaching brainwashing children?

I think I'd use the word indoctrination over brainwashing. For me the word brainwashing has a different context than adults teaching children to believe the same things they believe - according to that definition virtually everyone brainwashes their children.

For example as a child I was taught - don't go swimming for at least 1 hour after eating or you'll get cramps and die. Of course scientific knowledge these days has completely refuted that. Yet still today I have a hard time swimming right after eating because I was taught it was dangerous. But I wouldn't say I was "brainwashed" that swimming after eating was deadly. It's more of the context of what the word means to me I guess.

The term "brainwashing" usually means perpetrators knowingly plan their deeds.

Mind control is much more subtle and often no one personally involved realizes the they're involved in it.

Is that a Cult is obsessed with money, requires a certain amount for your salvation, and gives no accounting to their members of what the money is used for.

Giving to a religion is voluntary (not necessary for your salvation) and anything you do give, there is a budget available to members that shows where all the money goes.

WOW>>> GREAT ANSWER RONAS :) :) :) Couldn't have said it better! I recently figure out it was all a sham but your comment put it all into a neat little box of understanding for me! (and many others I am sure)

Thanks for the compliment :)