If you had one chance to explain to a TBM why dropping by with cookies and treats and lesson plans and birthday gifts/cards and other things doesn't work, why it doesn't inspire you to come back to church, what would you say? If you found a TBM who would actually listen to why their favorite reactivation techniques are failing miserably, how would you explain the inactive mindset about these techniques?

Now I know some of you are going to say "I don't bother to explain - they don't understand" or "I tell them to get the hell off my porch", which are valid responses but I'm trying to articulate WHY the fake friendshipping bothers me so much. Even when it's from a real Mormon friend, when it's done as part of VTing or a YW activity, it annoys the crap out of me.

Maybe I don't like being seen as a service project. Maybe I don't like being put on the spot by an unexpected visitor with an agenda. Maybe it's the fakeness of it all. Maybe it's the fact they think my beliefs and loyalty can be bought with a cheap plate of cookies. Or maybe it's because I see how they act toward me when it isn't an assigned service project. Whatever it is, I've been thinking about trying to explain our (exmo) point of view to a very liberal TBM I know in a way that will make her understand that these techniques are failing miserably...are in fact making inactives LESS likely to come back to church. It's bizarre how Mormons have such a high inactivity rate but they keep doing the same old played reactivation techniques despite the fact they are obviously not working. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

But while I know how I feel, I'm not sure how to express it simply. Anyone have any ideas?

but I have tried to explain it to our TBM families.... they just don't get how doing those things are over stepping boundaries.....

They get all excited about those kinds of things because their lives revolve around their Jesus brownie points they get from it......

You could say "Thanks, but no thanks. If you would like to do something good for a service project then here is a list I have prepared for you of groups or organizations that actually could use help. I am not a service project. I am happy with my life and although I appreciate your thought, it is misplaced."

I hope that makes sense

I would say "I'm not so much into cookies. Next time bring me a pizza or something."

I personally don't care about being a service project. If I did care, I'd either tell them to not come back, or I'd make some cookies to bring to them with little atheist messages.

I got from the woman that has done this type of stuff for years now. I liked her when I first moved here some 25 years ago--but after she called me out as R.S. president in front of the whole R.S. when I said maybe we should be teaching sex ed in the schools--I've despised her.

She was my daughter's YW's leader and wouldn't quit bugging us/her. Then she was the one who came by on my birthday in the evening and said, "I was going ot take you to lunch, but I had something else to do." She sent me a Valentine last year with her family picture. I got another one this year. I have it hanging like a Christmas Card as a joke--and every time I see it, I want to come up with a way to tell her, "I'm doing great--want to meet my nonmo boyfriend?"

I run into this woman EVERYWHERE--Kinkos/fedex, Rumbi's (a restaurant--don't know if they are in CA). She doesn't even live in my neighborhood anymore.

Then my daughter had her as her college YWs program leader. THEN my very over the top TBM daughter said, 'She is SO FAKE. I can't stand her.'

Anyway--I know your frustration. I do have one lady who brings me cookies quite often, but she is the sweetest lady and she stays to talk and not about church.

I’d say something like this:
“You seem to be operating on the premise that I left the church because people weren’t nice to me. I assure you that is not the case. I left because I do not believe the doctrine. Sure there are a few members who rub me the wrong way but if the church was true I’d put up with them just like I do the irritating people at my office. I’m glad you are continuing to be nice to me even though I have left the church. But no amount of cookies will blind me to the facts that I have discovered.”

I like that one peregrine, thanks.

CA girl Wrote:
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> I like that one peregrine, thanks.

Thanks, I may get a chance to use pretty much that exact line. I've been invited to visit the SP tonight. Still haven't decided if I'm gonna go.

I like this :)

here's my smart a$$ reply

All the cookies in the world won't make the Church true.

Sorry CA girl, I couldn't resist.

That's OK, Helen - that's actually about as concise an explanation as anyone could come up with. :)

personal integrity and the interests we share.

Cookie icing is an insufficient disguise for a lack of integrity and no common interests.

My first thought is - "I'm much more complicated than a dog willing to do a trick for a piece of kibble."

I can imagine them getting the help of their lil ones and the whole cooking and making process being very unhygenic. I'm a nut though so when cookies come from someone I don't know I throw them out. Even if they look good. I know it sounds kind of kooky, but I can just see them licking the frosting off their fingers and then not washing their hands. I very much like the stamp of approval from the health dept. It may not really mean a whole lot but I need it.

Though if it is from a friend and someone I know and that I'm fairly aquainted with then somehow this doesn't bother me as much. Especially if I've seen them cook and seen how clean their kitchen is.

They are emotional manipulation on a plate.

In other words: A gift with an agenda isn't a gift at all. It's like a bribe or something.

After a few moments of exchanging pleasantries you could say something to the effect of : "Sister so and so, you seem like a genuinely caring person who would bring me cookies and befriend me even if it wasnt an assignment. So please wait until you're released as my VT or the RSP before you come back bearing gifts for a visit! It would be more genuinely accepted as an act of kindness instead of an assignment and we can sit down together and discuss the REAL reasons I no longer come to church. That way, I no longer have to question the motive of your visit and you can put all assumptions aside and get a better understanding of where I am at and why by being a friend and listening to me."

I would give them a great big hug and say keep them cookies coming!

I would also let them know that they are always welcome here and if they really want to dicuss why I left LDS Inc., please stop by and we can chat.

I call it reverse home teaching. Its a great way to get cookies and put the screws to LDS Inc at the same time.

So, here's what you should do when a TBM arrives at your door with a plate of cookies.

Open the door, grab the plate, remove the foil, grab as many cookies as you can in one hand, stuff them into your mouth, grin at the TBM, and SLAM the door!

You might never get any more cookies, but maybe you might never get any more TBM visits.

I am so glad I finished swallowing a bite before I read this because I laughed uncontrollably for a few minutes.

I'd probably tell her that I appreciate her effort, but sincere good wishes don't come with strings attached. :o(

One reason I left mormonism was because it was fake. I don't need that.

Also, it's offensive to me that total strangers claim to "love" and "need" me in a church I rejected decades ago. It's church that I find rugnant and destruction. It's insulting and invasive for those people to continue to assume they're so much smarter than I am that I might someday come crawling back. Yuck!

I would never accept food from strangers with an agenda who show up and expect me to be grateful to them for their so-called generosity. Strangers from churches I don't attend are not welcome and I'm not shy about telling them so.

I'd pick up a cookie and inspect it, and ask if it was a life-changing cookie, good enough that even Martha Stewart herself would have a change of faith orgasm upon eating it.

When the VT laughs and admits that no, the cookie probably isn't THAT good, I'd put the cookie down and say, "Sorry, no earthly cookie will change my mind. Unless the cookie morphs before my very eyes into Jesus himself, who commands me to return to church in plain English that I can hear with my actual physical ears, this cookie is just a bribe from a well-meaning assigned friend."

It's insincere. It's deceptive. If you weren't assigned to bring me cookies, would you have done so on your own accord? No? Then these cookies are a LIE. You don't really like me. You don't really care about me. It really doesn't matter to you if I'm the one who gets these cookies or if it's the next person on your list. These cookies aren't for me and you didn't bake them out of the kindness of your heart because you love me and thought I needed a little pick me up. You baked cookies because you were told to and you brought them here because I was assigned to you. These are not a symbol of your love and friendship; they are a symbol of your lies and deception.

How's that?
:>)

I have this sign on the window inset of my front door.


STOP

Please read before knocking...

1. Do not knock if you are trying to sell me something. I have a house full of things that I can sell to you.

2. Do not knock if you are wanting to share your religion with me. Do not leave your "love gifts' or printed information.

3. Do not knock if you are a Republician wanting my vote. I am a Democrat, and I want yours.

4. Do not knock if you want a donation. I have my own charities that I support, and I will expect you to donate generously to all of them.

5. I consider people who drop in without calling first to be RUDE, PUSHY, and INTRUSIVE. Therefore, I treat them the way they deserve.

I know that my sign did not answer your question. I had to come up with the sign because no matter how I tried to explain how I felt, there was always the next "new" VT or HT knocking at my door, or leaving a "love gift" on my doorstep for me to trip over and fall.

My sign did stop the salespeople, and the Republicians, but it did not stop the HTs. It took my NeverMo husband telling them that they were "an unwelcome nuisance and to not come back" to stop them. That is because his sex organs were on the outside not the inside like mine!

Now that I have vented, I think a TBM who has brought you cookies to friendship is behaving dishonestly. How can you deal with a dishonest person? As long as they are TBM they will act, behave, believe, etc like a TBM. You can not reason with a TBM. If they had reason about them, they would not be TBM. Yes, they may be sweet, kind, but they are TBM bringing you cookies. Why arn't they taking the cookies to your Baptist neighbor? Because the Baptist neighbor is not on their list...you are! They are fulfilling their calling; their duty to the church and the Lord.

You could say, "It really hurts me deeply that you of all people would offer me false friendship and these cookies to try to manipulate me back into a religion which I believe with all my heart is false and based on the lies of a womanizing child-raping monster. How could you be so cruel to me?" Look sad and quietly close the door.

While this might stop that woman, you will have the next TBM who is fulfilling her calling and doing her duty to deal with.

You can explain all you want to. You can use perfect words to convey the perfect message. The TBM Morg-bot may hear but not listen or understand your words. All she will hear is Satan speaking anti-Mormon propaganda from your mouth, you poor-poor thing. You must have been offended, or want to sin, or did sin.

Now, she has material for her next F and T meeting. She can stand and bare her testimony about the faith-building experience with you, and glow in the approval of the other TBMs as they smile and nod while she speaks.

You can not win with a TBM. You are not in the same game, and you not playing by the same rules.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 01:02PM by rowan.

I feel like I now owe them something because they brought me something. I don't give in to those feelings, however.

When our vtr/htr couple came over they brought food too. It told me that i wasn't a good enuf friend that they felt they had to bribe me to listen to them. I don't usually ask friends to bring food to my house and i don't bring food when i visit unless it's a party or a hostess gift at christmas.

This was one attitude that helped me to see they weren't really trying to be friends, they were just doing their mormon job.

Do you know how many of Joseph Smith's wives were married to other men? No? Well you really should. 11, all of whom are VERY well documented, even on the church's own genealogical website familysearch.org.

What do you have to say about that? Nothing?

Well God says in D&C 132 that's adultery, not to mention all the times he said that in the Bible, not to mention that it violated the law of the land, the sacred vow of marriage between a woman and her legally and lawfully wedded husband, not to mention common human decency.

Do you have any moral objections to a man having sex with another man's wife, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did?

No? Wow and here I thought Mormons had morals, ethics and integrity.

keep the cookies.

Have a nice night.

"If this is all about spiritual life and death, eternal exaltation, why would you open with cookies?"

"Why can't we open with an honest examination of the facts? Why has your church placed that off limits?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 01:15PM by blueorchid.

I think it bothers me mostly because it's a gesture that makes THEM feel good regardless of how the recipient feels.

It is selfish giving.

Well, it doesn't bother me because I am willing to accept gestures gifts, from others.

I was often part of giving gifts and still do. I think it's most often appreciated. At least, it has been for me.
I don't know anyone who doesn't want to receive a gift.

My view: accept what is given with graciousness. Be kind and polite.

Someone is thinking of you. Be appreciative. That was what I was taught as a youngster and I continue to do the same.

The world is just too hostile. There is no need to add to it.

I know lots of people who don't want to receive gifts, me for one.

Gifts can be tokens of love and esteem or sincere support, BUT...

Gifts have always been used as weapons and bribes. As Serena says, many come with strings attached. Many are intended to put you into someone's debt. Anybody knows that.

I would not put cookies that someone is assigned by their church to bring to you to try to get you to come back to the church in the sincere category. That is phony.

And I would never eat something left on the doorstep.

You could say:
"Being that you are mormon, I would like to ask you what your highest hope for me and my family would be?"

"If you hope that I will dress up in a costume and perform a ritual symbolic of my subordination to MEN and accept polygamy as a spiritual truth then please be clear about that!"

"Please don't pretend that you want anything less than for me to blindly follow rules that make no sense and in many cases require me to lower my standard of telling the truth and not lying.....because that is what you are doing everyday as a mormon"

Because it's disingenuous... friendship has nothing to do with it... it's all about dragging you back in...nothing less...

andyb Wrote:
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> Because it's disingenuous... friendship has
> nothing to do with it... it's all about dragging
> you back in...nothing less...


Bam. And there you have it. I once told a VT in a previous ward that I was never ever coming back to church but she could drop by and chat, bring cookies/gifts whenever she likes.

Never saw her again.