Since I've been on the forum last I've read a couple insightful books, the main one being Joseph Smith and the Origins of the BOM and also Wife #19. The guilt is slowly leaving and I feel awesome. I'm trying to make sense of one final thing - the only thing that still brings a pang of guilt to me.

My friend told me today that her father was once wayward and praying about whether or not to go on a mission and his dead brother appeared to him saying, "you need to go on a mission." I know the obvious is that maybe he just thought he saw him but that isn't enough of an explanation for me. I hear a lot of things (even from my own family) about amazing things happening so that people can perform certain Mormon duties. WHY!? I can't make sense of this when I see the church as a fraud.

What you've never heard of one-up-manship? Remember in God's army where they make a lame guy walk, or Legacy where Joseph cures malaria by saying, "arise and be made whole?" My family makes claims like this, that I happen to know are bullshit because I was there too. But boy it sure impresses the Joneses who now feel compelled to prove they are special too. Next thing you know we're all talking with dead relatives, or at least claiming to.

Ask yourself this. Have you ever actually seen an amazing happening or was it, in fact, always anecdotal evidence? Think about it. Did you see it happen or was it hearsay? Be honest with yourself and you'll realize that miracles do indeed happen...in stories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 12:18AM by The Man in Black.

While I've heard others tell those stories, I myself have none to tell. Those things didn't happen to me, so I don't assume they apply to me.

There are a lot of things that happen in life that have no explanation. I can't spend my life trying to either live up or down to them. It isn't foundational enough to base my life on. I have to go on what I learn and experience. When someone else has an experience, I can't base my life on that.

Joseph Smith tells endless stories of experiences with the other worldly. Maybe in his mind they were true. His mind is not mine. A little research also shows he had major agendas. Just because he told the story, does not make it true. Does not mean we should live our lives in a way that supports his stories.

My sister has told me numerous stories about seeing people on the other side. Maybe she does, I don't know. However, she believes and thinks tons of stuff I don't agree with. Is she more spiritual or inspired? Maybe. I don't think it applies to me. I'm not going to stay mormon because she had a dream about our grandmother.

Mia - holla!

I think about some of this crap too. But what it comes down to for me is: I will never be happy trying to convince myself of the church's truthfulness. I didn't believe it before I knew its context and beginnings - now that I've seen the bigger picture, there's no way in hell that I'll be able to make it work.

Someone else's experience does nothing for me. And for all I know, they're insane. My sister is always talking about spiritual experiences she has in the temple. Neat. I always felt tired, bored, hungry, confused, and ready to get my street clothes back on again.

(And my sister, too, thinks and acts in ways that bug the crap out of me.)

If there's a God, He's bigger than condemning us because we couldn't stomach the LDS church (or any other). If He's not, send me to hell.

I'm going to elaborate and tell you an example from my own family.

A few years ago my grandma died (not the grandma I wrote the grandma died and we found porn story on - other grandma). So grandma dies suddenly from a stroke. We get a phone call with the bad news. My parents are upset and a bit shaken. My mom says, "Sweet Grandma. I can almost feel her presence with us here now." Were all sad and share stories about her for about an hour. A day or two later we had a funeral. Time passes.

About a month later in sacrament meeting Mom gets up and bears her testimony that moments after she died, Grandma came and said goodbye to us and told us all to be true to the Church and endure to the end. She said that without the gospel we wouldn't have had the privilege to see Grandma again and we wouldn't know families are forever yada yada...It made quite the impression on the congregation. They probably still share that story.

Except it's not true. I was there. There were no apparitions. My mom was just doing what she does best. Climbing the Mormon social ladder with faith (and status) promoting bullshit. Never waste a good crisis.

Also Grandma's dead so there's that.

Thank you! Now that I think of it, when I was TBM I would have "spiritual experiences". I was sure I was going to marry this certain TBM man that I had dated and broken up with. I told my parents all the time that he was coming to me in my dreams telling me that I needed to wait for him to come back. I *KNEW* I was going to marry him someday because God told me so! Oh wow! I don't know why I didn't think of this before! I was a Mormon fanatic and look what it did to my mind! Yet I look back and read my journals and can see that I REALLY believed these things were happening. I made up a story based on some pathetic emotions I was having. Thank you so much for sharing this personal story!! (BTW I'm now happily married to an ex mo - funny!!)

and one of the most powerful known to mankind...DMT

DMT has also been called the "Spirit Molecule". Your body can produce this powerful hallucinogen and it is enhance with chanting, meditation and music.

Under the influence of DMT you can experience the most intense and spiritual and religous experiences. You can see visions, see God and the universe.

As long as we know the body can produce hallucinogens then we have to enter that into the equation when considering peoples religous experiences.

Many years ago, a guy I knew took some synthesized DMT. He hallucinated for an entire day and said the visions were terrifying. He managed to fall asleep that night, but when he woke up, the hallucinations were worse. He turned himself in to the regional mental health hospital and was under watch for three more days. This is a chemical that occurs naturally in the brain. And it's the reason that human beings developed the scientific method with repeatable experiments and peer review. We cannot trust a single feeling or impression on its own. A 'burning in the bosom" is perhaps the most ephemeral sensation a human can experience; certainly it is not repeatable under controlled conditions.

It seems to me that people can't even agree what that phrase means.

They can't even decide if burning in the bosom takes place inside or out of the body. In your chest or your mind. Nobody has ever been able to explain that one to me. I went through a phase where I asked every mo leader I ran across what that meant. Bottom line? what ever you want it to mean.

Here's my experience: Years ago, I walked into an audio electronic shop (anybody remember those?) and they had a ten thousand dollar stereo system playing Beethoven's 9th symphony. Shortly after I'd entered the place, the choral movement blossomed and resonated all around me as if the voices of a hundred angels had been loosed. A shiver ran up my spine like a sidewinder over a hot rock. It was heavenly.

Should I say that Beethoven is God? Maybe the expensive sound system is God. Maybe music, and music reproduction is a way of reaching out for "God." And maybe it's just as valid as a bunch of creeps in white robes doing secret handshakes. Ha ha. I think your point is that it's all subjective, and you are absolutely right.

If you ask me music is MORE valid than religion. At least when I spend a ton of money on music related things such as Dir en grey t shirts, CDs, concerts they give me great music in return which makes me high and happy.
Also, since I have synesthesia music is like an auditory drug for me consisting of tastes, smells, colours and textures. Way better than sitting in a church for several hours being bored.

What Mormons call "A burning in the bosom" has been studied as a physiological and psychological phenomenon associated with the emotion named "moral elevation" by psychologist Jonathan Haidt.

Studies involve showing people video clips of people expressing gratitude and kindness that are perceived to be extraordinarily admirable (Such as segments from Oprah). Most study participants report feeling a pleasant sensation in the chest and nursing mothers spontaneously lactate. The vagas nerve is theorized to be involved.

It appears that all humans regularly experience "moral elevation" and can be triggered by diverse circumstances for different people. It is dependent on what is individually perceived to be incredibly admirable.

Don, I am wondering if your acquaintance took the DMT by smoked vapor, by injection, or by mouth? There are significant differences in the drug's action on the mind based on method of administration. This acquaintance's reaction was certainly extreme.

You, and WhatIsWanted, make a good point regarding the hallucinatory power of the electro-chemical brain and mind. Personally, I think all our neurotransmitters (serotonin, acetylcholine, epinephrine, dopamine, endorphine etc., and the rest of the chemical stew that makes up our bodies) are psychoactive. Thus, I think all our individual and collective experience of what we call "reality" is basically hallucination. I have a hard time taking any of it very seriously, as it seems so dreamlike in nature.

Your friend told you that somebody told her that he had an experience. A very unusual experience. One that conflicts with what you know about the world, and about the validity of Mormonism. YOU didn't have the experience. Heck, your FRIEND didn't even have the experience.

How are you in ANY way obligated to believe that it happened? Mormons seem to overlook the reasonable scientific requirement that the more outlandish the claim, the more proof should be required. I've never seen a spirit. Have you? Why should we believe that some body else sees invisible beings when nobody can even prove they exist? And it's not for lack of trying. Those ghost hunters work really hard to find proof.

The whole idea of "hearsay" was introduced to me by none other than Thomas Paine, writer of "The Age of Reason". To sum up, he pointed out that all religious claims of vision and revelations are HEARSAY to anyone but the person who actually GOT the "revelation". There is NO OBLIGATION to accept their version of reality (or fantasy), just because they SAID they saw an angel, a spirit, or heard a voice, or whatever. That was THEIR experience. Not yours. You are entitled to live your life based on YOUR experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

To me it could mean one of the following:

1. that there is a god and he's interested in all religions,

2. There's a real psychic link between humans that science has not figured out.

3. As part of the brilliant survival mechanism built within humans, possibly a result of having a large brain with two halves which store information about the same event/ object slightly differently, the mind makes links and suppositions (imagination) between things and makes them real.

When considering Mormonism as a whole, the validity of professed miracles is irrelevant. The question should not be "Were the miracles real," but rather "How do these miracles validate the claims of Mormonism."

Most religions claim access to divine or supernatural powers, Mormonism is no different. This of course leads us to the conclusion that you don't need to be Mormon to experience a miracle, regardless of whether the miracle is real or only perceived. Separate the two issues -- the validity of the Church, and the validity of the miracles -- because they are unrelated. A miracle cannot validate a truth claim.

If it could be a basis for truth then all religions claiming miracles would simultaneously all be true and all be false, which makes no sense. There are only two arguments I see against this reasoning: 1. Only one religion experiences true miracles and the rest experience fakes. 2. All religions experience miracles because all religions are true. Both arguments are absurd, therefore we can conclude that miracles form no basis for religious truth.

Thank you for this! This makes so much sense to me and really helps me! It's true - conflicting religion members have stories relating to their religion but that doesn't make their church true. YES! Thank you!!

Just for the sake of argument just imagine for one minute that the stories are true...
Well, for one, it is only relevant to the person to whom it happen and no one else (it would be a personal experience)
And secondly, it obviously doesn't mean in any way that the church is true because you can hear the same kind of stories from people in other religions...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 12:05PM by quebec.

I agree with with quebec. If the story is true, perhaps that person needed to go on a mission for reasons having nothing to do with mormonism.

I was born and raised TBM, graduated from seminary, went on a mission, graduated from BYU - the works. After graduating from BYU the bottom fell out. I sank into a very severe depression, attempted suicide several times, etc. Long story short I left mormonism and came out as gay. And needless to say for years I had all sorts of anger toward mormonism for making me believe I was a horrible person for being gay.

But the surprising thing? I really have no regrets about going on a mission. I regret wasting two years when I could have been focusing on school or something else productive. But other than that I had a good experience. And that's because my mission president and his wife were two of the kindest, most loving people I've ever met in my life. They adored their missionaries! If there was a purpose to me going on a mission it was probably to learn and experience unconditional love.

And their love continues to this day. They know I'm no longer mormon and they don't care. They know I'm gay, and they're happy that I've found my soulmate.

So if the story you heard is true, maybe the person did need to go on a mission. But it might have been for a reason that had absolutely nothing to do with mormonism.

Oh this is so true! I don't know why I didn't think of the fact that maybe going on a mission was good for the person but had nothing to do with the church being true. THANKS!!

My SIL saw the man she was to marry in a dream so when she came across him she did. Don't ask me how she remembered what he looked like :). After being married for less than a week she wished he would get hit by a truck. They stuck it through a crappy marriage, bankrupcy and several kids until they got a divorce after over 20 years-none of them good.

My "friend" in the church who works for hospice told me when I told her I was out because it was all rubbish(she doesn't speak to me now) admitted that most everyone she was ever with on their deathbed, regardless of religion, was greeted by someone they knew "on the other side" when they were dying.

I think that people see what they want to see and sometimes they manipulate what they don't. The brains is a complex organ that is designed to help us cope for survival.

People's spiritual experiences tend to confirm their current belief system.

When dead JWs appear to their relatives to tell them to join mormonism, I'll start paying attention. (JW's don't believe in a "spirit" --- when you're dead, you're dead, and therefore non-existent. If you were good, Jehovah will later resurrect you from non-existence. So... JWs NEVER see departed relatives. LOL.. but they do frequently see demons!)

You see what you want to see... hear what you want to hear... etc.

A couple of thoughts on this.

1) Lot's of people from other religions have similar experiences. Not just Mormons, not just Christians, not just Jews. So even if these experiences are somehow real they in no way prove the Mormon church to be true. Many religions purport miracles; however, even if you believe in the miracles they logically can't prove any single religion true since contradictory religions also have the same experiences. Even if dead people somehow communicate with live people it doesn't validate the Mormon belief system.

2) I take these stories with a grain of salt. If such things happen the laws for when they do and do not happen make no sense. Why would they happen sometimes and not others? It makes it hard for me to believe. What makes more sense are faulty memories, hallucinations, hoaxes, vivid dreams, imagination, mental problems, etc.

For example, one time I saw my legs being pulled into my bed. It was just like the bed was quicksand. I was sitting up and frantically pulling my legs out of my bed one at a time. There was another person in the room - my eyes were open and I could see them. I was even talking to the other person about my legs being pulled into the bed. Then the other person was still in the room and my bed was solid. I was now fully awake. The legs being pulled into the bed seemed real, and it transitioned to something that was real - but I was just transitioning between being asleep and waking up - all while sitting up and looking around the room and even asking someone for help.

The human mind has an amazing propensity to imagine it saw something that it did not and remember it as a fact. Read about some of the recent case studies on how fault eye witnesses are for police line ups, traffic accidents, etc. People often completely believe they saw something they never saw. Studies also show the more often someone recalls a scene in memory the more it becomes corrupted.

I don't believe eye witness accounts of big foot, UFOs (and kidnappings), lock ness monster, etc. either. However, I do believe that at least some of the people who report these things are sincere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 02:27PM by ronas.

I sensed I felt my brother a few hours after he passed away because a few hours before he died I told him to wait for me on the other side and come and meet me.
I told everyone in my family I sensed my brother there in my room. I felt him visit me because his personality and essence was a part of me for a moment and even told them what I sensed him saying to me before his spirit left the room.
I was missing him and grieving when this happened. Now that 2 years have passed since that time, I doubt it was him at all. I think it may have just been me being emotional and wanting it so much.
So you see? Things you can't see, you can never possibly know for sure. But that story is now passed on and maybe repeated.
I was the perpetrator of a story that I couldn't possibly know is fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 02:33PM by suckafoo.

There are a number of well studied cognitive and memory phenomena that account for ALL of the stories you hear in church. The most common one I have seen in LDS settings is "imagination inflation". My old supervisor was one of the lead researchers in this area (I work in a related field). A short definition is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_errors#Imagination_inflation

Basically the environment of the church - with the repetition of personal visions and revelations in F&T meeting - establishes a schema (or expectation of events, feelings etc) for such events, and makes them 'normal' for church members.

Then when something happens - like the father's prayer or the mother's fond thoughts of grandma - a seed is planted. Over time, with repeated rumination, the event changes in line with the LDS schema.

Memories are not set in concrete. Everytime you open up a memory it becomes plastic and capable of being altered if you are not careful (knowing this happens can help innoculate you against it, but even that is not foolproof). If you think of something frequently, it can very rapidly be molded to fit a desirable schema.

We know what the original event for the mother was, and it sounds like a classic case of imagination inflation; for the father it may have been that he thought about his dead brother (for whatever reason, maybe the brother went on a mission, or maybe he never got the chance) at about the time he was deciding to go on the mission. Subconciously he knew he needed to go, he thought of his brother, imagination did the rest. Attributing the direction to his brother preserves his own personal image (or schema) of himself as a rebel.

The event ronas describes above is similar to some I have had which are due to sleep paralysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

As a preteen I combined sleep paralysis with imagination inflation and was convinced Satan was out to get me personally. It was years and a number of episodes later that I discovered what sleep paralysis was. It can be truly terrifying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 06:39PM by spanner.

In the first city of my mission I got a green elder (a delightful guy who, as it turns out, became very famous and rich and also famously gay). I was the very responsible trainer trying to prove myself. We taught a family who welcomed us back, but when we returned no one answered. We walked away dejected. But when we got out of the apartment building, I was struck that someone was still there. I said we had to turn around and try again. We went back, knocked again, and the wife came to the door crying. Her son had been injured in a fall and lay in bed with stitches and bandages. We told her about the anointing and blessing, and the other elder and I pulled out the ol' olive oil and blessed away. Her husband came home and was so thankful to us that they had us back later for dinner. We taught them and baptized the whole family, the first time anyone had baptized anybody in that city (Lugano, Switzerland, in the Italian-speaking part). We became famous in the mission. Anyway, when I was first a non-believer, that experience haunted me. It had been the one big "spiritual" experience of my life, and a testament to me that the church was true and that the priesthood healed in ways we couldn't predict.

But you know what? It's all serendipity or the lack thereof. Things happen, some good, some bad (mostly bad). Things fall into place or out of place. Things resolve themselves or they don't. Ned Reyerson of "Groundhog Day" reminded us that "It's all a big crap-shoot, anyhoo." You can learn a lot from the movies.

"Oh, BING!"

Sorry.

I know that I am opening myself up to ridicule by posting this, but I want you to understand it is so you do not give the Mormons church credit of being true because of "amazing things".
I have had numerous unusual experiences while I was in the church and since I have been out. They have nothing to do with the Mormons church being "true". I wish I could explain why I have had some of the experiences that I have...I do not understand them.
I think that some people are great singers, some people are wonderful artists, others are highly intelligent, and some of us are gifted (or cursed) in this way. It is nothing that I can call on or control. It is something that happens to me or through me. It can be very unnerving and has made me feel "different" all my life--and not in a good way.
For those who do not believe, I don't blame you. I have a hard time believing when it is happening to me. I use to say to myself, "I am just imagining this" or "I must have a brain tumor or be crazy." Then when something you "saw" happen really happens, it is scary.
I have written down many of my experiences and have though about trying to have them published, but somehow it does not feel right to do so.
The "educated me" says that "those kind of stories are baloney or worse", and the "me" that has experienced OOB, clairvoyance, and other forms of ESP, well that "me" doesn't know what to think. It may run in the family as my maternal grandmother and her sister use to tell some pretty tall tales and get mad if we did not believe them.
To open up this part of me, even under my assumed name of rowan is very difficult for me. I hope that what I have shared with you will help you to put your last doubt to rest so that you can fully recover and have a happy life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 05:10AM by rowan.

Just to say I dreamt about my husband twice before I met him. I had been going inactive because of many issues. I dreamt exactly how I was going to meet him and, because of that, I went to church and stood in the foyer waiting for him. I wont' go into more of the story--but when I found out he aws gay--OH MY H*LL! That was a shocker. Then to have my marriage fail, etc., but as I've distanced myself from the church, I know it was ONE OF the right things to do in my life, again for many reasons. It, for one, finally led me out of the church. I still feel a very deep connection to him--whether our marriage worked out or not--and so does he. His gay friends/old partners even tell me that. They are baffled by it.

I dreamt about my brother having marital problems--and I kept dismissing the feelings--until my sister called and told me he was trying to get hold of me. They stuck it out for another 9 months and then I had another dream--and that dream came true a month later--exact dream--of him showing up on my doorstep.

I've had this happen WAAY too many times to deny it. And it has happened many more times since I left mormonism than before--including how I ended up with my old boyfriend 28 years after he moved away because I rejected him for not being mormon.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 03:34PM by cl2.

Mormonism is a rumor mill. There is always a story of someone who heard someone say or experience (Insert Spiritual Experience).. etc.. Most of the faith promoting rumors are bogus, heavily embellished, or simply don't demonstrate Mormonism to be valid or not.

We cannot rely on others' subjective experiences when trying to determine the truth for ourselves. Have you had an apparition appear to YOU declaring Mormonism true? I bet not.

However, what if someone tells you they discovered the truth by reading, "No Man Knows My History" or "Insider's View of Mormon Origins"...? That is something you can read and verify for yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 05:37AM by gracewarrior.

Those stories you hear are about someone else. People like to use them as an illustration of the spiritual power of the religion.

But...remember..... You make your own decisions and choices based on what you think is in your best interest.

Those other experiences are interesting, but if they don't apply to you, they can be discarded as only important to someone else.

There is no need for guilt, or shame either. You can certainly change your mind about your beliefs. It's OK to do that and know you are OK. You can let go of any emotional bond/attachment to the religion, even if it's your heritage, culture, family, etc. and accept it as something that is OK for others but not you.

It's always best to do your own research, learn to be a thorough researcher, ignore bias and tone, and get to the verifiable information that validates the claims.

Take your time to process all of your concerns.
Sounds like you're doing just fine!

Have you heard of all the Big Foot stories? They are a dime a dozan.

Of course, mormons lie through their teeth.

I can't tell you how many stories I heard about the garments or 3 Nephites. How about all the RM's that claim they received an answer to their prayers that they should marry the fair maiden girl? OMG! It is sick how they behave in utah. "I prayed and you are my future wife, lets go to the temple and be sealed for time and all eternity"....B.S.!

Everyone in the church has got a story to tell so they can have the spotlight on their pure and delightsome lives.

This is the reason I never could get a testimony of prayer. I always thought I might not be worthy or God was upset with me. But the reality was, I always felt like I was talking to the wind. For this reason, I knew prayer was bogus and ppl who brag about answered prayers were either associating coincidences or flat out lying. I was just too honest with myself and others. Why lie about some spiritual event when its considered sinning to lie? Its an oxymoron.