I abandoned my belief in Mormonism the same year I turned 30. That year I was hit face on with just how mortal I was. In the religion I had a "sure knowledge" of an after life which eased the punches that life often throws. But that year the brutal realization of not knowing where I go and just how fragile life really is slapped me head on.

As of right now I am not so traumatized about not knowing if there is an afterlife, but I still feel very vulnerable to my mortality, and also the mortality of those I care so much about. Life is so fragile it scares me...

...this may help...it may not. But it's still nice to feel a connection to something. This is one of my favorites....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU

What a lovely video. Thank you for sharing that. :)

Beautiful video! Thanks for that, omen.

It's OK, don't worry one minute about it.

But at the same time...isn't the knowledge of how fragile and precious it is somewhat fun and exciting? The last few months I've definitely been living by 'you only live once'. I make the most of every oppourtunity and live life to it's fullest and show everyone I love just how much I love them as often as I can because like you say, life is fragile but it's also BEAUTIFUL.

Heather, have hope. There might be a way to have an afterlife. Through technology.

No, I'm not talking about cloning or transplanting every vital organ over and over so you can live on. And while that may be possible--you could replace every part of your body, potentially, and still not have changed the inner you, the person, the conscioussness or pattern of thought that is uniquely you.

But....What if your consciousness could be copied entirely, every whit & bit, and stored/copied to live on through technology? At least until you consciously decide to end your consciousness.

There's evidence of emerging technology that can do this--where we need to be able to read & write to the brain, decode down to the lowest level of brain storage and mimic its processing.

See (1)

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/09/22/brain-movies/

Where preliminary evidence shows one may decode and record visual images of our visual cortex image processing.

(2)
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=122523&org=NSF&from=news

Where one may insert information into the visual cortex that the person has not ever seen/experienced and yet can "learn" through injection.

The read/write interface to the brain is developing, though still very primitive.


(3) Next, what about accessing each and every whit and bit of memory that makes you, you?

http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1002421

Potentially the most important discovery/concept of the 21st century. Seriously.

Upshot: they may have decoded how to read the brain at its most basic level. Like looking in a computer chip at its bit level transistors.


we can decode how the information may be stored at the lowest level. Next we need to determine the precise processing method/model of the brain (network or holographic, or a combo)

How does this apply to us? To an afterlife? What about those that have already or will have died before such technology is developed?

Read on...

Heather, just imagine if we decode the brain down to this level, enable ourselves to copy each bit across ultra-high bandwidth optical connections to a "computing" type technology. If the consciousness is truly the pattern of biology and not some mythological metaphysical entity, then it portends that we could share and copy our conscious thought with technology. That means our inner self could be transferred to something that is copyable indefinitely. This via a duplex sharing and then personally intentional transfer of "Id" into the technology that can hold our conscious pattern.

Next imagine that our consciousness is held and processing in energy of light/electromagnetics, which travel at lightspeed. By the lorentz equations of special relativity, perception of space-time (the entire cosmology) shrinks to single points. Furthermore, knowledge and understanding would increase at incomprehensible rates. One could perceive that such energy conscious entities might be able to do for others what has happened to them, and time is no barrier in this conscious realm. Bizarre, I know, but fun to think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 12:21PM by redstapler.

Funny that you mentioned this...we were just talking about some of the same articles in the office this morning. Great stuff!

omen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny that you mentioned this...we were just
> talking about some of the same articles in the
> office this morning. Great stuff!

It might be me that was talking with you, but I won't reveal who I am. I'm just a red stapler at the office. Everyone secretly wants one of me, but there's only one.

No, I'm certain it wasn't you. I share an office with one other atheist, and three hardcore christians.

Unless of course you are actually a red stapler, in which case I'm now terrified of my office supplies since they seem to possess consciousness.

omen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless of course you are actually a red stapler,
> in which case I'm now terrified of my office
> supplies since they seem to possess consciousness.


Indeed. Once the species is able to transmit conscious patterns into external technology, the consciousness learns to project itself into any time/space, even among the random particles of the zero point in the vacuum of space. I chose a red stapler, and this period of history, because the most fascinating of all past humans were ex mormons.

;-)

Thank you for sharing this.

ever since my mother died, my last surviving parent.

I think what some Eastern philosophies are trying to say is: why waste this moment worring about the inevitable end of my existence?

It's not working that well inside my brain though. Don't know what to do about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 12:31PM by lulu.

The afterlife of Mormonism is a hell.
At first you're relieved to have life after death, but then when the "gospel" makes your life a living hell, and you realize this IS eternity...you want it to end.

"Forever sleep. Earned it I have."

Timothy

The hardest part, for me, is the feeling that if it all ends at death, life becomes kind of pointless. I got past that by seeing a kind of immortality through my kids. Not just through DNA, but also the things I teach them are likely to be passed on to their children, and my children will remember me long after I'm gone. It's comforting to know that something of me will continue after I'm gone and my life does have meaning.

If you believe in God, then trust God. Whatever will be, will be. Now go and enjoy your life. Don't worry.

I think it helps them. I had to face cancer last year and I really had nothing to hold on to except reality. The hospital asked if I wanted a particular religion to visit and I said no. Kind of harsh reality but it is reality not some fairytale we choose to hold on to.

I do believe in something bigger out there, just no man made religion. Just have to let go and 'what will be will be'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 04:56PM by mav.

"Just have to let go..."

That phrase just made me think that I've noticed that people feel a sense of freedom when they actually have let go of something. (At least, it has been the case in my life)
Although there are moments you do need to hold on to something, like a life preserver when you're waiting to be rescued.

You were not "aware" before you were born. You will not be "aware" when you die. It's that simple. No reason to fear at all. Enjoy the universe while you're aware.

Is your life really any different now than it was then? It's just your perception of the end that has changed.

Me, I'm trying to live on somewhat through my children and grandchildren and my writing. I'm not a Shakespeare but with any luck (and a lot of work) I'll be able to write something some people like. :)

Mark Twain once said something like "I think I'll mind not being alive about as much as I minded it before I was born". That's not the exact quote, but it's really stuck with me. My loss of faith has actually increased my appreciation for life. It's opened my eyes to the beauty of the earth and the heaven that's right here all around us. Most of us get a pretty good run and plenty of opportunities to soak in the beautiful. It's really a miracle that we are alive at all. What an amazing experience. Everything must come to an end, though. I like to think that our "self-awareness" is transferred to another body after death. I guess you could call that reincarnation. It makes sense to me, because I know that for some miraculous reason, I am self-aware of only myself, and why should I never be self aware of another person? Seems to me that chances are good that I could be self-aware elsewhere after this body is done.

We are all peers now in the time of our being. Most of the time, we did not exist, and we had no complaints about that. After we have passed, there will be no further complaints from us.

Most of the time we don't exist, and that's not bad. 100% of our troubles occur during our existence.

i still believe in an after life as i believe i have always been in one form or another so i will continue as that what ever that form may be ,you dont have to believe in a god to believe in an after life although i do think some thing or some one higher than us created the universe i dont believe some thing comes from nothing so to me it makes sense that there was a begining from what or who is any ones guess

I feel the same way, hon. I still haven't figured out how to come to terms with it.

IMO this was the hardest part I faced in coming to terms with the church NOT being true. I thought I'd live forever in some sort of fashion. Then I suddenly began to question this thinking.

One of my planned activities this year is to take a day to really enjoy and cherish the natural world we live in and to do so with a focus/understanding on the realities of our biosphere - we all have sunrises and we all have sunsets. Nowhere do I feel that more than at a quiet salt water tidal beach that's part of the greatest body of water on earth - i.e. the connected oceans (and their gulfs/inlets/etc.) of the world. If the weather is nice this sunday I shall arise early and watch the sunrise on the Atlantic ocean and then drive through the Everglades and watch the sunset on the Gulf of Mexico. Each of our lives has its sunrise. And each of our lives shall have our sunset. Do I look forward to the sunset? No I don't. But I've slowly come to terms since age 28 twelve years ago with the acceptance that this life of mine shall end someday. Nevertheless I'd love it if I could indeed live forever young. Time simply flies by too fast. I can hardly believe it that I'm now 40 years old. Wow!!

I've found that a mental exercise helps.

Remember that it's not just you. It's us. It's me. It's Susan I/S. It's Steve Benson. It's Barack Obama. It's Zsa Zsa Gabor. It's Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. It's Joe Ratzinger and your neighbor.

Every single one of us will DIE.

And one day, NO ONE alive today will inhabit the Earth. There will be a wholly new cast of characters. Descendants. All of us will be dead.

What death means is another topic. But remember that it's not only you. ALL of us are in this together.

As Ozzy Osbourne sings, "See you on the other side." :)

Steve

Steve,

Do you know what "secondary gain" refers to?

What secondary gain do you get from evangelizing annihilationism? Even if annihilationism turned out to be true--and it is possible--what, exactly, do you gain by preaching it from the rooftops?

The business partner, 30, of an acquaintance of mine, has a five-year-old boy who was diagnosed with leukemia two days ago. The boy was fine one day, playing soccer, and then completely incapacitated the next. It was that sudden. The boy's father and mother went through a divorce, and it was ugly. And now, this. The boy had his first chemotherapy treatment yesterday.

What would you tell the boy's parents if it became clear that the boy would die? "There is no afterlife, and once he dies, your boy won't be seeing anything." Would you say that to them, Steve?

Of course, regardless of what you'd say, it's either true that we survive, or false. My point is that you don't know, and thus, you have no business saying that we're annihilated when, in fact, you could be wrong.

Steve

Sorry, GP, but an invisible spirit would have to be blind as it lacks an opaque surface with which to absorb local light.

. . . you can spare me your lip service about supposedly not knowing one way or the other.

You have testified on this board repeatedly to knowing that immortality is "true."

Indeed, in this very thread you have ended that testimony of yours with the words (to quote you): "As Ozzy Osbourne sings, 'See you on the other side.' :)"

The only thing missing from your sacrament meeting delivery was, "In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

GP, the ghost-whispering evangelizing pot calling the kettle black.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2012 02:15AM by steve benson.

I have no clue about how dying works. none. i've never done it. I'v known people who have, but they didn't come back and let me know how it went.

I don't know how tomorrow is going to go. Never been there. Don't know anyone who has.

Hmm, all I have is right now. That's it, Now. I'm sleepy, going to sleep, see how tomorrow is going to go when I get up. That is unless I wake up dead. It could happen. I'll try to come back to the board and let you know how it went if I wake up dead.

I think the older you get, the more you realize you might just be beating the odds. Of course we can have good genes, and live a healthy lifestyle, but ultimately cannot control everything.

My first classmate died, and it is sad. He has children in school who are not much older than I was when my mom died.

I came to terms with most of the afterlife fairy tale years after my mother died. Despite having a lot of "spiritual" experiences, almost none involved her; those few were easily explained, and random. All the evidence told me she was really completely gone, except for my memories of her, and her attributes found in her descendants.

I think a lot of people cheat themselves by letting this life go in hopes of a better afterlife for which they have no proof. With my brain, I feel I get cheated most days out of living life to its fullest, but I think that is the way to live. I wish others thought my life was important enough. We do not have time to waste.

I think europeans are more in touch with their own mortality. Everywhere you go in europe, you see things older than us. In the USA, almost everything is brand new, and it gives us a false perception that we will live forever.

I once met a 400 year old dead monk, and he held a sign that read "What you are now, we once were; what we are now, you shall be."

Maybe but not today you little bastard.

If you ever get the chance you should visit the little monk yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_della_Concezione_dei_Cappuccini

...and either do I. No one knows what is to come. That is part of the great mystery of this life. There are a variety of philosophies to choose from--some with post-mortal trajectories and some without. As there is no scientific or other method to arrive at a conclusive answer, why sweat it? Live and let live...or in this case, "die and let die." Each of us will know soon enough.

As an aside, I have watched thousands of people die during my career. Its nothing like the what is depicted on film and it usually carries with it aspects which are beyond words. It is at once sobering and illuminating.

After the LDS church experience, I found myself in the agnostic, then atheist camp. Well, certainly, I was non-theist and atheist was as close to being accurate as I could get. Yet, something nagged at me...lingered. I've worked through a lot of my feelings and I now realize that our vision of what comes after this life is simply up to us. Truth be told, no one knows for sure.

The atheists will try to show all kinds of experiments which supposedly prove that there is no afterlife. Many (not all) atheists put on this ridiculous, egotistical 'intellectual-superiority' facade which is quite transparent. They will attempt to school you about science. I tried to be patient at first, but after I found many explanations off base, I finally had to intercede.

With respect to coming to conclusions regarding the afterlife via science, this is not feasible. Science is designed and very good at studying things of the natural world. It is ill-equipped to study the 'super-natural'. There is no role for science in this endeavor. So, without hard evidence, either way, how should one proceed? I believe it is a choice. This choice is dependent, of course, on your personal anecdotal experiences (you can't read a 'prospective, randomized, double-blinded study' for every belief you have. Many times in life, you simply have to assimilate all the information and experiences you have been through and make a choice.

And just because there are a multitude of charlatans willing to deceive the gullible, doesn't discount the very real possibility of a meaningful afterlife. My anecdotal experience is the culmination of interactions woven around my children. The essence of who they are is something ethereal. There are many memories to choose from, but some have simply convinced me. On one occasion, I distinctly remember watching my 4 year old boy laugh as he played with our dog--there, in that moment, there was nothing finite about him. I can't put into words what that experience was like other than to say that it was clear to me that we are forever connected. Don't let the muddiness of post-mormonism steal all of your experiential moments. You deserve them.

And, someday, when your time has come, remember those connections. Because in the end, those connections are all we have. As John Magee, Jr's poem so eloquently states, "Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth –--Put out my hand and touched the Face of God."

My 2 cents...

D

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2012 09:20AM by steve benson.

"You don't know that purple unicorns strumming ukeleles and singing in ancient egyptian don't orbit the sun, either, but the evidence suggests otherwise."--Steve Benson

This is the same argument that is generally made from other atheists. Let's look at it. First, they make it sound as ridiculous as they can, say...'purple unicorns'. Then they throw in something that sounds scientific like...'the evidence suggests otherwise.' And then, taken as a whole, it generally comes off sounding sarcastic and condescending. I find this type of discourse unfruitful. May I suggest an alternative?

First, realize that when a post-mormon is pursuing the question of mortality, they frequently are hurting and reeling from having their secure belief system vanish. In this context, sarcasm designed to shock and belittle a specific belief is neither helpful nor accurate. Second, if there are some facts that we are not aware of, please share. There are no scientific studies which adequately answer the challenging question of whether the afterlife exists. None. Zilch. Nada. I have seen atheists attempt to make this argument with "studies" which are at best, poorly conducted and at worst, deceptive.

So, without convincing proof either way, you are free to choose a belief system which works for you...just as Heather is free to choose what works for her. Please be aware that harsh sarcasm is unhelpful as individuals struggle with this difficult topic. Perhaps you have good intentions. Perhaps you feel that this approach helps people shake out of their silly world view. I would hope that this is your reasoning...not the more likely scenario of simply belittling others as a function of your ego.

Also, with respect to your critique of GP, I found that ill-conceived. You stated, "You have testified on this board repeatedly to knowing that immortality is "true." Well, that may be a fact, I don't know for sure as I haven't checked. If so, who cares? Are individuals not allowed to evolve in their opinions? On such a difficult and complex topic of "the afterlife" are individuals not allowed to pursue and try on a few different approaches. You make the statement as if you've caught him in a lie...and that somehow impugns his reputation. Have you never held a different opinion? I suspect you have. I suspect, at some point while on your mission in Japan, you uttered words which would make you cringe nowadays. I don't hold that against you. Your world view adjusted to a new set of circumstances and so did your opinions. Why now disparage someone who also has adjusted their view? Again, not only condescending, but more importantly, hypocritical.

Let's keep the discourse at a level that is helpful to both the writer and the reader. Your level of thought on this and other topics is above where your keyboard has recently wandered.

D

. . . he has a board history of testifying in behalf of what he claims is the reality of immortality. That is a fact, whether you are aware of it or not.

He is hardly one, therefore, to chastize others for "evangelizing."

Finally, I am not wandering at all. I am on point in my responses--you simply disagree with them.

You can play the game of playing referee here but you have a personal dog in this fight and simply won't admit it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2012 11:49AM by steve benson.

When death comes...

If there is an "afterlife", I'm going to rock it...

If there isn't, I won't know what hit me...

Either way, I'll be fine :)

I can't choose to believe anything. I just believe what I believe, whether I like it, or not. It's coming to terms with what I now believe which is the hard part.

The concept that brought me peace was first deciding to let the whole idea of an afterlife "unfold" as I pursued getting my personality back and learning how to run my own life from opinions that I had freely chosen.

That took practice. It took a while, years in fact.

Then in the course of working on being as alive as possible every day, I suddenly realized that my whole afterlife fear that caused me to buy the Mormon insurance policy from the business-suited afterlife salesman, was an assumption.

I was assuming that the individual consciousness I have now, is the best and should be preserved. What if a pupae decided their form was the best and attempted, through technology or metaphysics, to stay in that form forever? The pupae would not know it missed being a butterfly.

Perhaps sharing a universal consciousness might be "heavenly." Perhaps dropping one's burden and going to rest really means changing to a form of consciousness which is less linear.

Human beings are hardwired to "find out." Our job description on this planet includes moving everything from the unknown side to the known side. We tend to be uncomfortable with uncertainty. The afterlife, or absence thereof, is simply one of many uncertainties. I have already outlived all my friends in high school and even all the boys I went out with. And I'm only in my sixties! Who knows why. Some things just have to remain in the unknown column and we make peace with that.

There is absolutely no reason to be fearful of the unknown, it's just unknown--one of many, in fact. The idea that it was a known to a guy who wants to sell you a pass to his "known" afterlife is ludicrous on its face. It's only out love for our families that made us buy his snake oil/Noni/Amway afterlife plan in the first place.

Some people find comfort in believing they go on to rebirth or life in another form. For me, finding comfort in fully living while I am here is enough. I spent decades marking off time doing stuff I really didn't WANT to do.

As far as I am concerned, I am in heaven right now with this laptop on my lap, the rain pounding down outside, a peaceful heart, my fireplace going and a cup of coffee handy.

Namaste

Anagrammy

That was lovely, anagrammy. I guess my heaven is sitting at my computer with my cuddly little purring kitten on my lap.