I hear you completely. I think I'm just reacting to very personal experiences. It doesn't feel right. It does feel right to be willing to exchange thoughts and information. It just doesn't feel right to celebrate because I think most of us here knows, it isn't a party immediately. Seeing the truth and beginning the walk away is far from a celebration for the person leaving so it seems wrong for anybody to celebrate that without them.
I've never known anyone but me to come out of it but if someone in my family left and made it known to the rest of us I fear I would be sickly happy about it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2012 11:31PM by suckafoo.
I thought the same thing. I was unprepared for the grief. It was one thing to take that journey and for me I was not the girls with a loaded bookshelf from Deseret, but it's another to see a little sister or loved one taking their first step when you know what the road is like. You hope they'll come out of it intact but just leaving does not promise that. So a toast to those leaving is like bringing a cigarette lighter into a deep cave. It's too much more than that. It's a cult and I've personally seen all kinds of crazy pain from all of my family members to get excited when they leave. Get excited years down the road when you get the privilege of meeting up, spending time from a different place. Raise a glass together when you know your hearts are in a better place.
I do see your point. I must confess I don't say much about it to those who believe in it because of the price I know they would have to pay. I have been put in the situation before of being "allowed" to hurt someone's testimony but seeing innocent fragility in their expressive eyes, thought better of it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 03:13PM by suckafoo.
It was/is rough coming out of mormonism... but I guess life just seems so much better to me now that I relish anyone finding that same truth/peace.
So I celebrate it. I felt victorious when I made the discovery and left. I guess I assume that the reasons other people are sharing their exist stories is because they too are excited (albeit nervous).
I figure the best way to validate their excitement while simultaneously abating their nerves is to celebrate.
I view it as VERY similar to the "it gets better" campaign for LGBT.
I agree, I view it as it gets better as well. but when my daughter comes to me and tells me she is a lesbian and her pain is that she can't announce her relationship on facebook like all the other cousins, saying let's have a toast to "it gets better" is not where she is at and what she needs. But I love the It get's better campaign, very grateful for it.
I think the difference (at least from how I am looking at it) is that someone is coming to RfM for some sort of validation, and I think celebration is in order.
If, for example, your daughter came to you and said, "I was so confused and unsure for so long, but now I'm sure that I'm a lesbian... but I'm too scared to out myself or don't feel like I would be accepted on facebook" then it is framed differently. She would still be looking for validation from you... & one possible response to that would also be celebration. Maybe it's a secret celebration because she doesn't want people to know, but that doesn't mean you can't take her to a fancy dinner and celebrate that she has finally discovered something and is no longer confused... even though some rough times may follow.
I dunno... maybe this is me projecting based on my experiences.
you know what? you are right. One thing I always vowed was that if a child came to me and announced a hetero relationship or a same sex relationship, I would celebrate the same. This is all quite complicated, anyone involved has their own well of experience and reaction. I am just really touchy about the icky happiness in my time in the church when they "got another one". I don't want to think that is the same feeling out here. And I am wrong to define celebration in my terms. Just touchy.
okay, i just icked myself out. magnanimously stating whether a hetro or homosexual child came to me, celebration blah blah blah .... I hate this in other people. Why did I have to even say that, that way. In my heart I just want it to be about love, forget the gender or traditional assumptions. sigh.
For me I think about my daughter becoming lesbian, and it doesn't bother me one bit. But, for some reason I have mental pause when thinking about my son being gay.
I have no problems with homosexuality, but for some reason I do hesitate when I think about it with my son.
It's just one of those things that we get brain washed about.
(I think it's partly because of my own gender preference... obviously gals would be lesbian, because women are hot. Why would a guy be gay when we males are so gross? ...it's just a subconscious thing that goes on. It's not that their is any transferable truth there... it's just a reflection of our own sexual bias + years of cultural brain-washing)
so interesting because I could totally be at ease with my sons being gay. it's got to be same gender related. I'm happy for my girl to have the gumption to say, this is me. What I struggle with is knowing how to have conversations around this. So... did you see any cute girls at school? Kind of thing. I feel like an idiot. I admire my daughter beyond belief, I am just trying to keep up with her I guess.
females are hot, yes. but so are males. I remember in my years as a mo, it was a given that males were gross. I've found in coming out of that, I was deprived because of that common perception.
I used "gross" as an exaggeration to show that my sexual preference changes how I see things for other people.
You're right though, TSCC definitely added to that "grossness"
As far as "How do you talk to a lesbian daughter" I honestly don't think there is a "right" answer.
Attempts like the one you mentioned could be viewed as patronizing, or lacking empathy- despite being honest attempts to connect & accept.
It just takes practice. I think we don't realize it, but a lot of our "normal" interactions were fed to us by repeated examples. Why would you ask your son "see any cute girls today"? Most likely because you saw that pattern displayed repeatedly.
So when you say it for the first time, it doesn't sound weird to you (because others said/did it first).
When dealing with something you haven't seen a thousand examples for, any words that come out have an inherent doubt associated with them.
...there would be an awkward transition period, but then you'd learn what things are perceived well by your kid, & what ones are perceived as disingenuous.
If someone in my family left I would be sooooooo happy. I wouldn't insist they put on a ghost busters outfit and let me hold them underwater to prove they left.
I would just be happy. If they wanted a glass of champagne with me that would be great! If not, I'm not opposed to having a party of one. Finally, if after 7 generations someone saw the light, I can't think of why I shouldn't be happy about that.
DH and I try to give a toast to everyone on this board who announces they left. There are times when that can get to be a bit much. People seem to leave in waves. I've never met any of these people. I'm just happy they aren't going to be tormented for the rest of their lives by a fake religion.
you can only be as happy as they are in leaving it. I've found a person that can turn on a dime, leave it and celebrate is not necessarily leaving it. I think they are avoiding pain, if in fact they were true believers and dedicated to integrity in their religious practice. So even if your heart sings, it will also ache for their recognitions of betrayal. In those moments, even if our champagne glasses are filled, it can seem wrong to celebrate too early for a million reasons. You know the saying "just needs water" as in perfect candidate for religion. No changing of self or mind, just dunk 'em because they came that way. I do not like to see that mentality on the other side of things.
That definitely makes sense. Basically you don't want RfM to just be another clique that satisfies their need to belong. I get that.
And you are right about the happy-level. You don't want someone saying "I resigned yesterday and my wife said she's leaving me, and my parents disowned me, and etc..."
At that point empathy and understanding are needed, and "Forget your worries, you're on the fun side of the island now" would be completely inappropriate.
okay, this discussion just made me realize, it's not the celebration that bugs me, it's the perception of validation. Whoo hoo, another has joined our circle, there fore we are right. I'm not accusing anybody of feeling that way at all, it's just been a trigger for me.
My daughter was anti not that many years ago and now is an over the top TBM. I watch her struggle with being a single woman at age 26 (I was 27 when I got married to my gay "ex" husband). I know what she is suffering--been there, done that. Would I be happy if she left? Yes. But I also am allowing her to make her own journey.
I have three siblings who went inactive in their teens--my brother turns 44 today. When he realized I no longer believed, he called me several times to ask me yet again, "You mean you really DON'T believe? You have given me the right to finally admit I don't believe. As long as you believed, I kept thinking there was something I was missing." I was the devout sibling--and for my inactive siblings, it has given them license to let go FINALLY. To quit feeling guilty for not being mormon.
I would love it if my daughter left--mormonism has been difficult for her. She is a perfectionist and this religion has her twisted up in knots. For me, it has nothing to do with perception of validation, but for her happiness.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 12:35PM by cl2.
I can't help but feel happy and a little bit celebratory whenever any person leaves any harmful cult. I'm not happy because the road ahead is easy for them, I'm happy because they have wrestled the reins back from the cult and are learning to control their own life.