I believe it was Holland who gave the talk centered around the first and great commandment, that thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and blabbety blabbety blah... He said that when we reach the judgment bar of God that he thinks we will all be asked the same question that Jesus asked his disciples after they abandoned their calling to go fishing. "Do you love me?"

The whole time I kept thinking "what kind of sick bastard would create a world full of pain and suffering, and yet is primarily only interested in whether or not his creations love him?" ...and then consign them to an eternal fate based primarily on that level of love of HIM...

I think most TBMs thought it was a powerful, moving, profound and heartfelt talk. I only heard "love God or he's gonna kick your ass."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2012 02:14PM by kimball.

Obedience is the first law of heaven.
Bow your head and say Yes.
Bend your will to God's.
Every knee will bend, every tongue confess.
Become as a little child.

He seems to want us to become sheeple. Apparently praising him for all eternity is a worthwhile goal.

Maybe God is afraid of anyone that thinks for themselves.

I found that doctrine revolting as a tbm and felt really guilty for having such rebellious thoughts. It seemed to come naturally to some people but I just couldn't understand or accept that. I remember asking people *how* to subjugate your will to gods. What a dumbass I was. Examine the premise!

What kind of a god would really want someone like that as his followers? And if he did, what does that say about this god? Either god is bunk or the people telling me what god is like (or both) are bunk.

Well said. The god of the scriptures is quite clearly anything but consistently loving.

I only heard "love God or he's gonna kick your ass." Ba-da-boom!

That's exactly it. No matter what he does to you, just take it and show love and you will be rewarded by him letting you stay with him. Sounds exactly like the same plan as battered women are expected to follow by their abusive husbands: "I beat the crap out of you and you thank me. Got it?"

More like "Don't you see how much I love you, and how nobody could ever love you as perfectly as I love you? Those people who call me abusive are just bitter and hateful, you and I and every intelligent person who has ever lived know that everything I do for you is out of love, and... what's that? You love someone else more than me?" *Smack!!*

Seriously, you have to command people to love you, god? Anyone here have their parents command you to love them? My parents didn't.

Same old story forever about the Abrahamic God. Don't question his wisdom, submit to him completely, worship him forever and love him with all your heart. This is an evil preachment. The whole thing is sick and wrong to it's core. To want this is the desire to be a slave. It's a primitive falsehood, powerful in it's attraction and it's bad for you.

In the BoM;

there are many examples of divine bi-polar behavior. Merciful, loving God, vs. I will spew you out of my mouth.

That's all I see in it anymore is:

I love you, but if you disobey I will destroy you.
I am full of love, but the natural man is my enemy.

Etc., etc..

...And Jesus said "Hey, you know what? screw all of those old commandments, just love one another. Period."

Sort of a strange "love" if you destroy the livelihood of those you claim to love.

...and right before he said that, he gave the phrase Holland quoted in my original post above.

Even as a TBM I never really understood the whole 'you must worship God & sing praises thing'. He sounded like a complete egomaniac, especially if you believe that he was once a man that them became exalted. Imagine all this worshiping and he turned out to be just like Packer or Bednar. No thanks.

Yeah, but He also said:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34–39 NASB)

So, forget your loved ones...follow me. And, that's it....Love ME and forget your loved ones...

Hmmmmmmm.......... Interesting message.... Seems a little contradictory and confusing.

"The whole time I kept thinking "what kind of sick bastard would create a world full of pain and suffering, and yet is primarily only interested in whether or not his creations love him?" ...and then consign them to an eternal fate based primarily on that level of love of HIM..."


Shakespeare wrote a whole play based on a king (Lear) who gave out inheritances to his daughters based on how much they said they loved him. The 2 older ones professed flowery phrases about how much they loved dear old dad. Cordelia, the youngest, said 'i love you like a dad, no more, no less'. The enraged king threw out his youngest daughter and then spent the rest of his life regretting that decision.

Perhaps God needs to spend some time talking to Shakespeare...or at least reading his works.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2012 08:49PM by karin.

This is exactly what my father did. He sired two intellectual sons and then tossed us out like yesterday's refuse. My brother and I are fiercely loyal to our families. Our children are diverse individuals who gratefully receive our unconditional love.

My siblings of lesser cognitive abilities spank and abuse their children. These are the "good" Mormons. They have learned how to appease Mormon dad, and he favors them. They receive money and paid for vacations from Daddy Warbucks.

The tragedy of King Lear was that he split up a kingdom and a family according to his own egoism. I guess that the fascinating thing about it is that I get to experience it from the perspective of a hated son. Shakespeare was a genius at describing human motives. Never underestimate his insight.

Thanks for bringing King Lear into this. Once again Shakespeare proves that his writings are more profound and insightful than any scriptures supposedly written by a god. I can't believe how I never realized how mormonism is so full of what Fawn Brodie astutely called "oversimplified ethics."

Just insecure with himself

-Christopher Hitchens

Holland plays on fears...
...He fears we'll have long nights and empty nets.

We have not turned our backs or forsaken God.
God is a figment of control, to keep money and power affluent to the church.

Love me or I'll kick your ass. lol. this has to be rip on god night. I've never seen so much anger about god in so many post. I liked the book the Golden Compass that was written to counter the lion which and wardrobe series. God is the villian and the church tries to keep everyone from doing anything that brings joy. Sounded more plausable to me.