I have an honest question for any Christians on here. Why do you believe in God and Jesus?

I left Mormonism a few months ago, and I became a bit of an Atheist at the same time. I thought the only way to know God existed is the "burning in the bosom" which I had already experienced in relation to the Mormon religion. The "burning in the bosom" told me that the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet! So I know I can't trust that as evidence of the truthfulness of anything.

But I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water by ditching Christianity along with Mormonism without at least giving it a chance to stand for itself outside of Mormonism.

So that's my question: Can you believe in God if you don't believe the "burning in the bosom" is from God? If so, how?

You may find this interesting. This is written by an atheist who was previously an evangelical christian.

This entire book is written from the perspective of Ken exploring why he believed.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html

Why do I believe...let's see.

I can't believe that this life is all there is. I believe the soul carries on in some form.

I feel watched over and protected and guided. I feel that what happens is for a reason of some kind.

I feel that God hears my prayers and answers them in some way, even if the answer is no. I have seen prayers answered in abundant, surprising ways.

I think those who have died can still have a connection to us.

My mother in law died. She and my father in law were strict atheists. When a great-grandchild was born, my father in law said "she really tried to stay alive for the baby's birth. Oh well." A believer would say "She's so happy in Heaven looking down on the baby." The latter is much more comforting to me.

This is such a personal thing. It's like asking which color is better, blue or orange. The bottom line is my faith in God makes my life better and makes me feel happy. There is nothing more I can say!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2012 08:10PM by steve benson.

Sorry, not getting that connection at all. Can you explain how they are even remotely related?

You believe that something extends beyond this life... So, a respectful question...

How or why does this have anything to do with God or Jesus? Couldn't there by many other explanations besides a God/ Christian answer?

Just as we exist now.., and the only explanation of our existence is NOT because of God ?

Other than faith, there really isn't any more reason to believe Christianity any more than Mormonism. IMO.

Belief in religions?

It's mostly about feelings.

They feel what others of a like mind feel. Believers in any religion base their beliefs on their feelings. It's an emotional attachment.
They feel loved, watched over, cared about, blessed, and they feel there is more to this life after they die.

Religion is not about scientific facts anyhow.

I can attest that non-faith in other people's deities as about as free as one can get.

It's also about what one needs. If they don't need a belief in a deity, they discount it and are content and at peace.

Because deities and their cohorts do not show themselves, it takes a lot of imagination, I think, to believe they are real.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2012 05:45PM by SusieQ#1.

Just as you have probably studied Mormonism and realized that it's not what it claimed to be, you can put Christianity to that same test.

Study everything you can get your hands on, both pro and con. Then if you come out a believer still, you'll have a reason for believing. You'll have put it to the test and discovered what makes sense to you and what doesn't.

Yes. I'm just beginning to embark on just such an investigation. Christianity in general is much harder to pin down than Mormonism in particular. Mormonism is grounded in such pure fiction. All it really takes is an honest look from a skeptical perspective and the house of cards starts to crumble.

Christianity holds up much better at first glance. At least Galilee and Judea are actual places, and Jesus was probably a person who actually existed.

I believe in Jesus as a historical figure who was what the Buddhists would refer to as an enlightened being.

I believe in God because I believe in an unseen world. I don't think that this physical reality represents all that there is. Just as humans evolve I believe that spirits can evolve as well. God to me is a highly evolved spiritual being. He represents all that is good, just, and wise. I believe that the Abrahamic god represents our attempts to understand God more than it represents God as he is. I also believe that there is an intelligence or mindfulness at work in the Universe.

Conversely, I also feel that it is not really important that I understand everything about God. I think that my task is to live this life I have been given as best I can. I think that love and compassion represent the highest ideals to which I should strive.

Based on very personal experiences that I don't care to go into on this board, I believe in a God whose being and personal details I don't understand very well, yet believe cares for us in a visceral way. I think above all He is love.

Hi Nickname,

as others here have said, this is a personal matter, and the answers will vary widely. I also heartily endorse what Greyfort has said. Study it.

So this is my view, and it works for me.

First, the 20,000 ft view.

I believe in God, and specifically the Christian God, because that's the paradigm, for want of a better word, that makes the most sense to me and answers the big questions - like "Who are we?", and "Why are we?"

Now, a bit closer to the coal face.

I've never felt the "burning in the bosom" in a religious sense. (As I understand it, the closest I've come to that feeling is the time I was basically moved to tears watching a friend sing beautifully in an opera competition.)

To me, the core and best part of Christianity is the intentional sacrifice of self to the cause of another. This often manifests in the public consiousness as acts of charity, but takes other forms as well. Since none of us know how much time we have here on earth, I take comfort that I am blessed to have enough to support my family and help out others a little in various ways - like the first century church tried to do.

I believe that knowing Jesus has made me a better person - not in any radical transformation way (although I know a few people for whom that was the case).

That being said, I do acknowledge that alatruism is not exclusive to Christians, or religious people in general. I will also tell you that I do doubt from time to time, and I am still looking for answers to some questions. I also deplore the way the "religious right" has twisted and mis-applied Christianity as a political tool.

But overall, the reasons I believe are as stated above - it answers the big questions for me, and living it means I get to participate in changing things for the better, a little at a time.

Condorstrikes

I've always tried to respect the board's views on not promoting my faith. Let me just say that I think the claims of and about Jesus stand up to scrutiny (even if they are supernatural) and contrast sharply with other faiths, especially Mormonism. We all sin, forgiveness is found in Jesus' death and resurrection, not in things we do (e.g. tithing, a secret handshake through a curtain). Sorry if anyone is offended

If we're just going with feelings, I feel happy without God, I don't need him. I do not miss my relationship with him. But I do want to know the truth. If there is a god, I would like to know.

regardless of which religion you belonged to? Would he have hidden himself, because you were in the "wrong" one? If he is so important, and his grand salvation too, why doesn't he get everyone on the same page as far as doctrine or leadership? Wouldn't he want something so important to be clear? Why is religion mostly a domain of right wing authoritarians? Why are most patriarchal, and why is the xstian gawd a *he*. If you believe gawd is not a personal one, then you have to explain why he would not intervene. Why would he not get involved, and allow so much pain, and suffering? You would have to explain how such a complex being existed BEFORE simple things evolved to complex. Why won't gawd heal amputees? Places that actually exist does not make a legend true. People write fiction all the time using real places.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com
http://godisimaginary.com
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

What I understand is that anyone who stays "Christian" or still believes in God, even after learning everything that basically proves it to be bullsh!t, says that they "need to", and they literally can't allow themselves to accept the fact that there is no after life.

So it's basically voluntary delusion. Denial. They feel like they can't face the facts, or are too scared.

Edit: I would like to add that anyone who still questions whether God or some deity exsist or not: watch " Dawkins: Sex, Death, and the meaning of Life". Its very enlightening and can be found in its entirey on YouTube.

Also, not saying I have a problem with religious people: it is your freedom and right to believe in anything; believe in sentient mushrooms for all I care. As long as your religion doesnt involve discrimination/violence or imposes on other people's rights. I think religions of all sorts, especially organizations and corporations (such as TSCC) manipulate people all too easily with their blind-faith belief systems. I think belief in deities is foolish and ancient.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2012 07:26PM by missguided.

Christianity can be very good for a person.
It encourages altruism.
Compassion and forgiveness.
Has set rules for positive behavior.
Lets people know independent thought is ok.

Jesus was unconventional.
Jesus didn't always did what was expected of him.
Jesus cared for the sick the dying and the poor.

Even if a Christian has serious doubts about the existence of God or Jesus they can gain benefit from the teachings and example set. Belief or blind obedience to a set doctrine or dogma is not crucial.

This makes it a self evolving belief system which can mesh with almost any culture and is inherently pro the individual.

I would argue with this and say that humans can do this without religion or god. To say that we have no inherent morals without religion is offensive (not that this is what you said, just making a point). I would also say that altruism can be just as harmful as militant objectivism.

Here is a good debate about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality

To those who say they HAVE to believe, or hope to believe, or want to believe there is something else out here...

My answer to that would be: just because you hope for something and wish for it, it doesn't make it true.

This is why I not only DON'T believe, and CAN'T believe, but why I don't WANT to. I simply can't let what I HOPE taint what I can PROVE. CLEAR thinking is more important to ME as an individual than WISH thinking.

I would concur with many other atheists (Hitchens and Dawkins and Sam Harris) who have postulated that it is unlikely that we as humans will "get over" our need for god, until we can get over our fear of death.

I don't fear death, and have no need to be told a fairly tale about an afterlife, therefor, religion and god holds no sway for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2012 07:39PM by intjsegry.

I know I'm probably not the target audience for this thread but I'm atheist for one simple reason: I put the Bible through the same scrutiny I applied to the Book of Mormon.

You can do that yourself and see how you come out believing. Yes, while the Bible does have references to real places, it has a lot of references to made up places and people too. Do a real critical reading of the Bible (including all the parts that most people skip over) and see how you believe then.

At least then you'll be able to be honest with yourself and have a better conviction on what you believe.

+1
Exactly. Though the Bible refences some real places, people and perhaps alluds to some real events, its not considered a reliable historical document. Its moral parables are very ancient and basic, and many of them are seriously screwed up. If people want to learn how to be a good person, they should listen to their own humanity. Empathy and things that make you a good person are natural. Except for psycopaths who are born with out it. No on needs religion to be a good person.

+ another 1

You need more information, before you make any major religious decisions. The Mormon versions of God and Jesus are very different than the Christian versions. After comparing Joseph Smith's ideas with those of Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Jefferson, Thomas Moore, Nietzsche, Wesley, and other Christian thinkers, Mormonism now looks like a nether-world Sesame Street.

Mormons think it is super-swell that Joseph Smith didn't have a good education--but I think a more educated, less evil man would have come up with a better religion to begin with. The Mormon cult is the bottom of the barrel.

I know in my heart that God and Jesus would not approve of the Mormon cult, its temples, its tithing money being spent on real estate, its hierarchies, its hatred of women and minorities and gays and non-Mormons. Mormons even hate on the Christians. When I was a little girl, I was taught in Primary that the Catholic church was the "Great and Abominable Church."

When I found out Mormonism is a lie, and my parents, friends, and TBM family were all lying to me, my world was turned upside down. There were other betrayals--and physical abuse--as well. I decided to keep Jesus and God in my life for a while, until I sorted out all the cult garbage. It took me years to deal with my brainwashed family, and set proper boundaries, and sort out fact from fiction. I prayed only in private for those years.

I was bored with religion when I left, so I mostly studied science, literature, poetry, psychology, philosophy, history.

No matter if you believe in Jesus Christ, or God, or not, I do believe with all my heart that the Mormon religion is NOT OF GOD.

Good responses here. Aaaand, here's my .02--

I attempted to convert to Mormonism from a fairly mainline-midwestern Protestant (United Methodist & Baptist) background. I nearly wound up busting my family with my decision ("Family Church", hmm), but when I went away to college, it was only a few weeks before I went back to the faith I was trying to reject (in the name of a "restored Gospel"!)

I simply found Mormon teachings required a lot more "spiritual energy" to validate than the Protestant Christian teachings with which I grew up. I also found those teachings much more comforting at gut level than Mormon teachings about becoming a god, constant adherence to very minute rules, etc. So--very subjective. But I think everyone approaches faith in a unique series of steps.

Here's a last "parting shot"--have you ever read anything by Phillip Yancey? I firmly reccomend "Disappointment with God" (1988), and "What's So Amazing About Grace?" (1987). He discusses his own struggles with belief in a very candid and helpful way, as well as the implications of a faith-based perspective, and what that perspective does to how we live out our lives. Best wishes to you, and if I've only made things tougher for you, I'm truly sorry.

To be clear, I'm not saying that because Jerusalem is a real place, the Bible must be true. I'm just saying that Mormonism was easy to reject, because it can be 100% proven to be absolute BS in an hour or two of honest research.

The Bible is a bit more hazy. It has some parts that are certainly bizarre (The witch of Endor, Balaam's talking donkey, the whole Song of Solomon, etc.) so initially, I just rejected it along with Mormonism. But none of that stuff is really important to Christianity, so maybe it can be ignored? But then how can I accept the Bible as "God's word" if parts of it are probably BS?

And who was Jesus? Did he actually claim to be God? If so, then that complicates things. Because he was undoubtedly a person of high moral standards, so I have to doubt that he was lying. However, that only leaves the options of him being crazy (which can't be discounted) or he was telling the truth. Of course, he might not have claimed to be God. It is rather ambiguous in the Bible, and the Bible is not a first-hand account, anyway. At best, some parts of it might be 3rd or 4th hand (copies of copies of letters from someone who heard someone who heard Jesus say...)

The Bible is unreliable as a historical document. The Bible is the basis or Christianity just like the Book of Mormon is the basis of Mormonism. But does historical unreliability necessarily mean incorrect doctrine? Must I accept the whole Bible as word for word correct in order to accept Christianity? Because I cannot do that.

Hi Nickname,

Firstly, I sincerely hope you find some sort of closure. I mean it. You've taken a consious decision to reject the framework that previously defined you and your life, and I have no doubt it's sometimes lonely, confusing and scary. So, all the best to you in your search.

I have no definite answers for you, only more observations.

Even among the various Christian groups and denominations, there's disagreement as to the "inerrancy" of the Bible. Some believe that God dictated it, word for word. Others say the writers were inspired by God.

You might want to look up the Nicene Creed. Most Christian denominations accept this as the fundamentals of Christian belief.

Once again, all the best with your search.

Condorstrikes

I stopped believing in the Old Testament long before I stopped believing in God. I think it's fairly easy to just decide that the Old Testament is just mythology of a ancient people.

In fact arguably the role of Christ was to tell them why they were so of course.

Of course, it's a slippery slope to also deciding that Christ is a mythology just like all of the other mythologies out there.

Yeah, that premise isn't entirely correct. It's a well known argument, commonly called "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord" known as "Lewis's trilemma" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma). It basically states that Jesus was either a liar, he was crazy, or he actually is the Son of God.

The problem is that these aren't the only three possibilities. Jesus could not have existed at all. Or - the one I tend to believe in - Jesus existed but his existence was so puffed up by people writing long after he died that he has become almost a caricature of himself.

Additionally, as you said, how can the Bible be God’s word if you have to discount parts of it? How do you absolutely KNOW which parts to discount?

These are questions you have to ask yourself. Again, I would strongly suggest you go about studying the Bible – ALL of it – and then see where you find yourself. Read what respected New Testament scholars have to say about Jesus and when the Gospels were actually written. Read the Bible with the same scrutiny you’d give the Book of Mormon; it can be done and it’s not as hard as you might think.

This was written in reply to nickname's post, not bc's :)

This is a great question. I have personally only been out of the Morg for 6 months or so. I don't know whether I believe in God or not anymore. I am aware of the scientific argument that God can not be proven. I, however, believe that things that can't be proven(yet) may still indeed be real or true. But to limit the possibilities to a singular God, or Trinity or whatever seems like a cop-out. There can be infinitely more possibilities than that right? Just use your imagination. We could all be "God's" who in our recreation time come down to this random planet and live out a mortal life before having to resume out duties. Or we could be a technologically advanced race that downloads our consciousness into a vast computer simulation and when we die here we resume our live's there. The possibilities are truly endless. Unfortunately , in my opinion, there is also the chance that it all ends after this. Our consciousness simply ceases to exist. To me that would be the least preferred option, as it implies none of our decisions, or lessons learned would truly have any purpose or meaning. Dunno, hard to know where to go with this one. I still think there is a God or at least a "higher power", but beyond that, your guess is as good as mine.

Lots of people argue about whether believing in God fosters good behavior or bad behavior. The truth is that people often do very good and very bad things for the sake of religion.

But I don't think we can honestly make ourselves believe in God or in anything else because we think it will make us behave well. The only reason that people believe something is because it appears to be true.

With that as preface, there are two reasons that I believe in God. First, there's rationality. There are logical philosophical arguments for the existence of God which seem to me to be more persuasive than the arguments against the existence of God. I've read Dawkins et al, but their arguments seem to be more about polemics and evasion than logic and step-by-step rational thought. A good question to use in approaching God from a purely rational perspective is "Why does anything exist? What began the chain of causation that we see around us?"

Second, there's perception. Some things appear to have a transcendent meaning -- i.e., a meaning that goes beyond strict materialism, or the propagation of DNA. For example, like most people, I sense that love, beauty, kindness, conscience, and courage are important and desirable in some way that goes far beyond the material. It seems reasonable to suppose that this importance is rooted in an intelligence that is more than human.

This is also related to our shared perception that people are more important than other living and non-living things. A good question to use in approaching God from a perceptual perspective is "Why and how are human beings deserving of different treatment than non-human beings?" While I don't begrudge atheists or anyone else their beliefs, I have never heard a good atheist argument about why people shouldn't treat other people like they treat any other living things: cows, insects, microbes, etc.

Beyond my belief in a God who cares about love, beauty, kindness, conscience, courage, and human beings, things get awfully murky. I freely admit that I am specifically Christian because I was raised Christian. It is essentially the language that I have learned to use for articulating my response to God. And since it seems to work well for me in that way, and because it is consistent with my rational and perceptual bases for belief in God, I don't see any reason to change it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2012 09:57PM by oddcouplet.