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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 02:12PM

I've found the "Keys" to the Book of Mormon as a ciphered text. All those strange names found within the book are in fact complex ciphers, and when understood tell a story in and of their selves.

My paper entitled "The Mormon Cypher Keys" is simply a test run to see how some of these ciphers are excepted by the general public, and represents only a fraction of my work on the 1830 first ed. of the B of M.

These Ciphers can be authenticated in the realm of mathematical probability, in layman teams: "what are the chances".

The hardest part about presenting complex ciphers to the general public and the layman is drawing out the ciphers in such a way that people with no previous knowledge of cryptic writing can grasp the concept, connect the dots if you will.

What I really need from the reader is feed-back pertaining to how I can make these cyphers easier to read and more understandable, and or any other concerns readers might have.

This is, after all, a concerted effort, your opinion and comments matter!!! Together, the layman and the scholar will prevail, but first we need to find common ground in order to make these ciphers comprehensible to you the reader, the people who matter the most.

Together we can make a differences.

All feed back (good or bad) is helpful and greatly appreciated. Please read the following link (32 pages) and post your thoughts and concerns.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/116621045/The-Mormon-Cypher-Keys

Thank you

Alvie J.

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Posted by: newcatholic ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 02:49PM

Unable to open a readable page. Let me know how to view it correctly.

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 03:09PM

That's because you need a cypher key. ;-)

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 03:05PM

----

The last number found within the Book of Jarom
is 238. If we invert 180º (horizontal shift) the number then reads
832 and divide by we get the number 264.841.

832/3.1415=264.841

This leaves us with the number .841. If we follow our inverting sequence and 180º horizontal shift .841
shifts to read 148. It is noted that 148 is the page number that the rest of the numbers for the Omni Cipher Key canbe found, quite clever indeed.

----

So, what do you gain from switching 238 to 832? Why that decision? It seems to have no basis for anything at all. Secondly, you divided 832 by 3.1415, an abbreviated form of pi. First question, WHY? Where did pi come in, all of the sudden? Second, why 3.1415? Why not 3.14 or ..ok I guess it is the constant form of pi (according to wikipedia). So that makes more sense. But why switch it back again? What methodology is this? Are you a Qabbalist or Rosicrucian or something?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2012 03:08PM by greekgod.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 03:51PM

Good Question Mr Greekgod:

Inverting numerical or alphabetical data is standard fare in cryptic writing, also hiding cypher keys in two different books is also the norm. these two methods can be found throughout the hermetic realm.


The beauty in this cipher is the fact that the number 238 is a true mathematical statement if you read it as 2 exponent 3 equals 8.


The uses of mathematical equations within ciphers is also a well known ciphering technique. In this case, the use of Pi denotes the circle. Hence the circle and the square, male and female ect,,,

Note: The use of Pythagorean theorem (the square 345) is also used elsewhere within this system.

The rule of thumb in cryptic writing is:
1. find the keys
2. find the locks

Your question is a good one due to the fact that you started at the beginning, very important due to the fact that these ciphers are highly numerical and mathematical in nature. you must first learn addition if you ever expect to learn subtraction the same can be said for multiplication and subtraction.

I hope this helped...

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 04:56PM

"The hermetic realm"..interesting.

Do you have any association with modern day hermetic groups, Alvie? Can you also suggest some resources where I can, as you put it, start from the beginning and go from there? I noticed that in the more advanced, esoteric books and writings of the Qabbalah, it is the same; numbers, patterns, etc. that seem like complete nonsense but make sense to the acolytes. Unfortunately, most laymen such as myself are too busy trying to live their lives and understanding these ciphers and patterns seems to take a significant amount of study.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 07:01PM

Mr Greekgod,

The best place to start, in my opinion, would be C.G. Jung. He wrote a number of books on alchemy: Collected Works of C.G. Jung: Mysterium Coniunctionis; Vol.14, Alchemical Studies; Vol.13 just to name a few.

C. G. Jung said that when he first started to study alchemy that it made absolutely no since at all, that it was just a bunch of gobbledegook. But he knew that there was something to it, after all some key men in history studied it to great extents and it had its own genera and was revered by many.

This is a great starting place. The alchemist of old created their own ciphers and language in an attempt to describe that which has no description.

"Strange names" and "epic places" not to mention systems that are nothing short of genus. Some start in the middle and work their way to the end while other start at the end and work their way to the beginning. But in the end they are all talking about the same mystery...

Here you will find the beginning of the Rosicrucians, Freemasons and the Theosophist just to name a few. And you will have years of study ahead of you, but in the end you will find that which you have already seemed to have found, its all about learning the patterns of day to day life and your own spiritually that matters...

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Posted by: LeRoy J. ( )
Date: February 06, 2013 08:54PM

I don't know much about this. Alvie J. is my son!

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Posted by: bar ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 03:43PM

For me (the layman) the cyphers look arbitrary

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 04:05PM

Mr Bar

I respect your view and thank you for your comment, as I'm sure your not alone.

however, I used the exact same sequencing within the whole of the work and this is how the system can be mathematically authenticated.

Not to mention that the "Bridge Cypher" is centuries old...

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Posted by: Concrete Zipper ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 04:25PM

To get any kind of mainstream interest in your thesis, you will need to demonstrate that the correlations you have found are not due to chance. This is not a quality that you can just claim because it seems that way to you. You will need to use accepted statistical methods.

If you don't have the requisite grounding in mathematics and statistics, you will need to get that first. If the services of your local university are out of your reach, there are a lot of good courses in mathematics and statistics available on the web, from the Khan Academy to Coursera to MIT's Open Courseware.

Good luck!

CZ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2012 05:04PM by Concrete Zipper.

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 05:02PM

One thing that also concerns me is the use of terms in your preface. You say "If were run our palindrome 26462 through our first numerical cipher (6 of diamonds)", and as a reader who has no previous knowledge of how a "6 of diamonds" cipher works, and why you need to run a palindrome through it, you pretty much lost me at that point.

I'm interested in what you are trying to show me, but I would need a basic knowledge of why these tools are used, where they came from, and what they mean.

Edit: I will say, the ending words/appendix is much more helpful. The "Rosicrucian" to "Rommecrucian" connection to Moriancumer was fascinating. It would explain a lot to assume that a vast library was available. I always felt this was the case, as the writings of Joseph Smith, combined with the stories in the Book of Mormon, seem to have been taken from various sources. It would also explain why Joseph Smith had a Jupiter Talisman in his pocket at the time of death. It explains why he used the Masonic rituals to create temple worship, and why he used to scry for gold. He was just like a miniature John Dee, heavily involved in magic and the occult. And if John Dee was a hero of his, or his fellows, then naturally sharing wives would be permissible in their new religious organization.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2012 05:32PM by greekgod.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 07:48PM

Mr Greekgod,

Yes, I actually thought about that myself.

What you are looking at in the 32 page document entitled "The Bridge Cyphering System" is an abridgment of this semesters work. It is actually quite longer with a lot more cyphers.

The Appendix in the original is "A" through "D" and there is much more that did not make it in this paper. Due to the fact that this is merely a peer review of sorts.

Truth be told, if the truth could be told, this is just a test run if you will, and you people are my editors. I've attempted peer reviews a number of different times throughout the writing of this paper but never on this scale.

Peer reviews help me fill in the gaps where people become lost, thustly making the paper more comprehensible to those who are unfamiliar with the nature of cryptic writing.

Thank you for your feed-back...

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 10:35PM

Something I have to wonder, Alvie: some of these cryptological moves you make seem to depend heavily on page numbers, and their symmetrical counterparts. I would assume that, since the BoM has gone through significant changes over the years, you would be forced to use ciphers and such on the original 1830 BoM, correct? Otherwise the results would not be the same, am I wrong? Any encoded messages would have been created by the original writers, before there were all of the grammatical changes and the superchapters included.

Edit: Found this..

The 1830 ed. of The Book of Mormon contains 588 pages of cryptic writing. It utilizes a plethora of different ciphering techniques. This paper covers only a fraction of the books mysteries and it is noted that it is intended simply as a study guide to help others along the path to truth.

Question answered ;)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2012 10:40PM by greekgod.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 07:25PM

Mr Concrete Zipper,

Thank you for the info. One of my University connections is a Master Mason from MIT, he has told me the same thing.

Most of my feed-back comes from the Universities as the paper was written at the Universities library's. They seem to have a good grasp on the abstract.

Most of them, Mormon and none Mormon alike, say the same thing: Holly cr#@!!! There something there...

It gets a lot deeper, I mean a lot deeper, as this is only a fraction of my work.

Thank you for your feed-back and I will try to incorporate some alphabetical and numerical frequency charts to satisfy this request.

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Posted by: bar ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 06:15PM

here is some excessive reading to the topic.

-----
Joseph Smith:
America's Hermetic Prophet

http://gnosis.org/ahp.htm
-----

-----
Joseph Smith and Kabbalah:
The Occult Connection

http://gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm
-----

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 11:23PM

Read them both. Thanks for providing those. To be straightforward, I felt they were very eloquently written, with very little substance at all.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 06:33PM

Jacob Bohem started the "Friends of Jared" / shakers = "brother of Jared"? What do you other board members think?

Why not include the vowel cipher? You said it was not included for obvious reasons - I guess they weren't so obvious for me.

I would like to see everything spelled out - don't leave me hanging. Don't say there's a mystery there for those who will run the ciphers. I don't have time, and you already know the secret so just tell me, please. One example (among others that I don't remember and I haven't time to reread it):

"1612 Aurora: Die Morgenröte I'm Aufgang; read in context with The Bookof Jacob you will instantly make a connection."

Please make the connection for me. Yes I'd learn more if I did it myself but you made the claim, so you provide the goods, if you will.

Also some of the visuals weren't clearly labeled or explained, it seemed. Ie. the ms sloane 34v - 35r and Dee's alchemistical calendar. I wasn't seeing what you were trying to show.


I appreciated the D&C 133 and the conversion keys. That showed where Joseph Smith got his numbers from.

"Morian-ucmer" Was that the original spelling in the 1830 Book of Mormon? Or has it been changed here to get the desired outcome?

Thank you for sharing your work here. It has been most interesting. I'm not trying to nitpick, but you must realize that you are dealing with a bunch of skeptics here due to our past experience (I may only be speaking for myself, but probably not).

I agree with concrete zipper: you need to show that statistically, this is not just random stuff.

Could you document when each of these ciphers came into being?

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 10:43PM

Friends of Jared, yes that was my first instinctive thought. Brother of Jared.. hmm.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 10:48PM

Dear Dot,

I'm a bit tired from holiday travel and its getting late so please excuse me if I'm a bit brief.

1. Jacob Bohem: I'm not quite sure how to answer this or even if it needs an answer for that matter.

There are two ways in which to interpret the Jacob Bohme cypher:

1. Jacob "Bohme"
2. "Bohem" (Bohemia)

There both quit intriguing, if we follow the "Rosicrucian" cipher as a pattern we get 2."Bohem" (Bohemia and or Bohemian) wandering nomads which fits the passage rather well. I include both possibilities in the original paper tieing them together under the Rosicrucian Priesthood as they were trailing Priest who would gather once a year.

I am still of the opinion that these two tie together and are meant to be interpreted as a wandering Priesthood but I have been careful not to get in to deep as this would just leave the reader to confused. So i opted to interpret the cypher simply as Jacob Bohme, as this was the most logical.

As far as the "Society of Friends" Jacob Bohem's writing gave birth to this sect, which would eventually become the Quakers, who would go on to settle Pennsylvania.

It is interesting to add that Jacob Bohme's direct descendents can be found in Pennsylvania at in the 1830's at the exact time the Book of Mormon was purportedly written.

As far as his writings, 1612 Aurora: Die Morgenröte I'm Aufgang and the book of Jacob they both deal with the philosophical story of the vineyard.

Lastly, Joseph Smith claimed that the "Brother of Jared's" real name was none other than "Morianucmer" which totally makes sense if you follow the cipher out to its fullest.

2. Why not include the vowel cipher?

It is written that the Vowels are of far more importance that any other letter in the alphabet, besides why place all your eggs in one basket?

In college I learned that the Architects will withhold key pages within their blueprints as a negotiations tool should they ever find a client behind in their payments on big jobs.

3. Question: I would like to see everything spelled out - don't leave me hanging.

Answer: Buy the book, heck your comments might even be in it.

4. Also some of the visuals weren't clearly labeled or explained.

Thank you for this comment, as I was thinking the something myself. Its little details like this that really need scrutinized, and your the person for that job. I ran out of time at the end of the semester and the paper "The Mormon Cypher keys" were poorly edited as a result of limited time.

I will place this as a priority one.

5. Dee's alchemistical calendar

Yes, the calender is impossible to make out in this form. The true calender follows the same pattern but is marked with the Months as well as the solstice and equinox. I was working on this at the very end of the semester. If you give me a place to send it I will email it to you and you can see for your self. It really is that cool.

6. I appreciated the D&C 133 and the conversion keys.

Its actually more than that. There are four equations each one odder than the next. They all work together as a formula. this is the part that I edited out as I was not satisfied and they just made the paper more confusing.

Sometimes less is more. Totally true in this case. I can also send you a copy of the four equations in question if you'd like they all work together to form a whole.

7. "Morian-ucmer" Was that the original spelling in the 1830 Book of Mormon?

Yes, I research this question to the fullest, as in the past this same question has been brought up. In all of the 1830 first ed. I have examined the word "Morian-ucmer" always appeared with a hyphen. Look for yourself.

Note: this is the second argument you brought up that I have seen in past peer-reviews. Not bad at all.

8. you need to show that statistically, this is not just random stuff.

"Mans Name Dr John Dee & Jacob Bohme, Rosicrusian" need I say more :)

P.S.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, If there are holes or anything of questionable content I want to know about it now. So please be scrutinize...

P.S.S.

Would you like an editing Job, pays little in the way of money, but I will give you credit as editor and you will get to read all the good stuff. Yes, there are secrets that need to be kept secret its that simple...

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 10:55PM

In the immortal words of every GA since JS, do you really think JS was smart enough to put in a cipher in the BOM? If there is one, it is entirely accidental, and thus meaningless.

Not that I want to be a spelling Nazi, but what is with the misspelling of cipher?

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Posted by: Xyandro ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 11:34PM

Thanks, Jacob; couldn't agree more. (Also, I believe both spellings are valid in cryptography.)

Most likely explanation for any "cypher" in the BOM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 11:42PM

Thanks, I always thought of a cypher as sort of a coat of arms or an insignia. I guess I should look it up.

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 11:46PM

I don't believe Joseph to have written the Book of Mormon, but that it was written by several authors in that century. There have been published recently some very interesting hand-writing analysis results which challenge the view that the Book of Mormon was written by either one man (Joseph Smith for example) or that each book was written by one man as claimed (I.E. the Book of Nephi had multiple authors, not one as it claims.)

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: December 27, 2012 11:49PM

I get that, I find each of the possible authors to be just as incapable of writing a cipher into the book. Have you ever read the BOM, it isn't something that sprang from the mind of an accomplished person.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 29, 2012 05:50PM

Mr Greekgod,

I couldn't agree more.

The book appears to me to have been written by a Hermetic Lodge (not necessarily Masonic). The men who wrote the book were well to do men of society, as some of the ciphers deal with subject matters that is only evident in higher degrees.

It's as if an adept from each society, (a Mason, a Rosicrucian, a Templar, a Theosophist, an Illuminati, ect..) came together and formed a lodge of Hermetic Masters. Note: cyphers very from society to society but they have a common element within them all.

That is why the book's cipher has stood for so long. The authors created within the pages a "catch 22" if you will. The ciphers themselves are not really that hard but the subject matter is revered by Hermetic Masters and adepts. To revile the ciphers would mean to revile their own systems.

And, it is noted that it was common practice in the days of ole to write books (and plays) in committee. Albert Pike is said to have plagiarized, but truth is he was following a common practice. Paracelsus published 20 books or so, but in truth he himself only wrote a few book. William Shakespeare is believed to be a lodge of theatrical writers. The list could go on and on. Same with the Book of Mormon.

I've extracted a few names from the book who I believe to be some of the authors. But I don't feel comfortable publishing them due to the fact that I just don't know for sure who the name belong to and why there even there.

For instance the name "Norah Rae" comes up over and over again. Who is it? Is it the name of a ship, someones Mom, girlfriend, daughter, sister, a horse, a phrase, a concept, I simply don't know. So I just sit on the cipher like some many others I have.

In ending I have to agree with you, the book simply could not have been written by J.S. as the purported history and the book's ciphers just don't add up.

And the fact that I have a little bit more to go on, as always.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 29, 2012 08:09PM

Dot,

Your questions are worth their weight in gold, as your the person this MS is intended for.

1. Not sure how to answer this question, I have to go back and try to find what your talking about. I simply don't see it, "Morian-cumer" is always spelled the same way. And always occurs hyphenated in the 1830 first ed.

2. I thought I covered this in the paper. I shared it with a P.H.D. and he ask the same questions so I went back and tryed to better explain it.

264 132 (26 letters in the alphabet) (start on 4 [D]) this is 26-4 or 264.

The next numbers in the sequence is 132 (13 is equil to M) (we start with skip 2)

or if you will (perhaps you might see the pattern better):

26-4
13-2

26 letters
4 equals D

13 equals M
2 skip 2

This pattern is how I established the alphabetical sequence:

26-4
13-2

264 132

Does that help? This is why writing about cryptic texts is so hard. I am always asking myself "how do I draw this out so that others can understand it?"


Skip 2 [sequence] Skip 8 (238)

2 exponent 3 equals 8 is a mathematically true statement, therefore 238 (skip 2 [exponent 3] skip 8) the 3 is an exponent therefore its not a number but rather a function.

There is another way to look at it, but it deals with "frequency" and is a little bit harder to understand. Therefore I choose to draw it out as simply as possible.

And to be quite truthful with you, what your actually looking at is a cipher wheel (see Sloane 3188) but in order to display this I would have to write a whole chapter if not a book on how any why, when and where...


3. The early Mormons were prolific writers, this is quite evident in and of itself. The Mormons wrote their own history, from beginning to end. It seems like very little of what you read regarding Mormon history is authentic historically, as there are to many historical accounts of this or that claiming the exact opposite. It is often hard to distinguish fact from fiction when one group is totally "secret" and the other group is "anti".

4. Remember the Mormons wrote their own history, so is the story of the 116 pages true or is it some type of code, or a distraction designed to mislead? I simply don't know, but I know enough about the Mormons to know you have to keep an open mind to all possibilities. I personally think it ties into the cipher somehow.

And as far as the book being originally translated from the plates all I have found to date is the first few pages written by "Emma Smith" published in the Joseph Smith Papers. They tell me that these pages are all that are left of the original MS. They say that the original MS is long sense gone, lost to the abyss of time. If you know where I can find the Whole of the MS please let me know...

As far as the Books page numbers and the lay-out I have a lot more that deal with this topic as the book is highly numerical. I mean what are the chances 35 million to 1 that these numbers would aline with this system. Its a huge number. I have more regarding page number, perhaps I might show you one day...

5. "Sidney Rigdon" I'm going to answer this question a bit to the left.

Food for thought: there where two religious organizations started in 1830 called the "Church of Christ". One followed the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith) and the other followed the Bible (Campbell and Stone). Both were of the Restoration. But get this, the Church of Christ (Campbell and Stone) share their buildings (churches) with the I.O.O.F. lodges (Odd Fellows) and many leading member of the church where (and still are) Odd Fellows.

I believe that Sidney Rigdon was involved in both churches. And there seems to be some kind of Odd Fellow connection---I AM ODD? (the plot thickens).

6. The numbers don't convert (264 is the circle and 132 is the square), what your looking at is the circle and the square, male and female, left and right, its a type of contrast... their actually colored (264 blue and 132 red) and where originally in the shape of a "diamond" and there is another set of numbers that make up the original cipher, but then again, I tried to make this paper short and easy to read and comprehend. Could you imagine if I was to write it all in one short paper how much more confusing it would be?

I should entitle the paper: "What if there was a cipher in the book of Mormon, what would it look like?"

I hope this answered some of your questions. I will try to edit the paper with these questions in mind. Thanks for helping me, this type of feed-back is invaluable to the Morgenrote Project as the paper is intended for ordinary people like you...

P.S.

I am neither Mormon nor Anti-Mormon, I am just a college student interested in hermetic ciphers. Please treat the Mormons, and all other people for that mater, with kindness...

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: December 30, 2012 01:05AM

Thanks for replying. This really is quite interesting.

Anyway, to answer your confusion, it may just be a typo at this spot and it doesn't affect anything because it was spelled correctly when applying the cipher (I think):



Morian-ucmer ciphers to reads

“Rosicrucian Cones”


You've got "-ucmer" instead of "cumer"





What was this part about? I don't remember it being explained - I always pay close attention to weird animals...

MA is to IO As Cureloms are to Cumoms

Is that from Mosiah / Moroni? The M (1st letter of Mosiah) and the A (2nd last letter): then the moroni gets flipped, and I (1st letter) and O (2nd last letter)?

Then how does that relate to cureloms and cumoms code-wise?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2012 01:06AM by dot.

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Posted by: Alvie J. ( )
Date: December 30, 2012 03:43PM

Dot,

Okay I see it, "Morian-ucmer" should read "Morian-cumer" good eye! I almost missed it.

The cipher works, I've tried it a hundred times to make sure. Then in the end I misspelled it, this is why I ran it through you guys for editing "scrutinizing" good thing to.

This will be the first thing I fix!



"Cureloms are to Cumoms"

I had been braking cipher for about 11 years or so when I was paging through the book of Mormon and ran across "Cureloms and Cumoms" This is when I started looking for the keys to the cipher and I found them shortly there after--in Omni no doubt...

The cipher is actually not that hard, its the alchemical content that makes it so hard to translate.

Review: "Big deal, he found the cone snail in the Book of Mormon, I don't get it".

Truth is, it is a big deal once you figure out what the cone snail is actually used for...

The first four letters read "CURE" and the last four letters read "MOMS" CURE---- and --MOMS... (the antidote)

The actual cipher reads "CURE MOMS PSYCHE" (loms-cu ciphers to read "psyche") it is the age old mythical story of Mercury and Psyche.

Note: Mercury, the winged shoe, is a representation of the "io" and the "cone". The men who wrote the book were highly educated and well read!

The mystery of the cone is ancient and is known by many names by many different societies.

The "elephant" (it has a snorkel like an elephant).
The "foot" (the shoe) (it walks on a foot).
the "furry darts" (it expels darts or a tooth if you will).

elephants, curlums, cumoms, ass, mule, horse all code words for the same thing.

This is where I am having the most difficulties. How to write the cipher out with out getting the alchemical formulas entangled. That's their big secret and their big worry. publish the formulas and religious cults will start pooping up every where.

This is also their "catch 22" as no one in their right minds would publish the formula. Most all the worlds priesthoods know of its existence...

It would take "The God Makers" to a whole new level, and that's not a good thing...

I have a lot more...

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: December 30, 2012 01:28AM

Good insight on the nature of mormon written history - what's to be believed when they aren't honest?

On Sidney Rigdon, have you investigated the possible use of ciphers in the text he purportedly wrote for the Campbellites? It was a book of scripture called The Third Epistle of Peter (in 1824). If you could show the ciphers' usage in more than one book, that would be even more amazing and crack open a whole new can of worms.

For that matter, what are some other books of that era that use some the same ciphers? If you knew who wrote them (and their connections, where they lived, etc), might that not give you leads for who wrote the book of mormon and the ciphers contained therein?

On the subject of Norah Rae, and the other loose ends that you'd like to make known but aren't sure of their relevance or prove-ability yet, maybe you just have to lay your cards on the table in order to get more feedback from other sources.

For example: I've been reading a newly released book about the sources for the book of mormon and it shows pretty clearly that a bunch of stuff came directly from the 1811 version of Marco Polo. The book is called "Book of Mormon, Book of Lies". It's an inflammatory title which I wish had not been used, but I didn't write it. Some non-mormons wrote it. And while their research is invaluable, I feel they kind of missed the boat on some points simply because they aren't aware of all the connections between early mormon players, or the nuances of mormonism. They could have tied up some of their loose ends or fixed some small misunderstood details in their narrative had they communicated with other mormon historians. There is so much to research and learn and no-one can do it all.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: December 28, 2012 05:26PM

Okay, I re-read it and have more questions.

1. You said it was "Morian-ucmer" in the 1830 version but in the paper the 1830 BoM (1830 version, I'm assuming) scan shows "Morian-cumer". Which is it?

2. The "why" of what you do isn't clearly explained and seems arbitrary; why start on the 8th or 4th letter of the alphabet (depending on the instance), why skip 8 or 2 (again, depending on the instance)?

3. How is it possible to work a cipher using page numbers when the whole thing was written first by hand and then put to a printing press - wouldn't the page numbers change?

4. This question is also a continuation of the last one - Smith lost the first 116 pages and had to re-write them, presumably he paraphrased or reworked it so the two versions wouldn't be compared and shown to be faulty translations. Again, that would mess up the page numbering system, wouldn't it, and therefore the cipher?

5. Like you already said, there needs to be more research done to fill in the gaps. Who had access to such books? The circumference of the earth (24,842 miles) was a rather exact number. Was that distance printed in books of the time - which ones? Was that book in the private library of Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery or...?

6. Order of odd fellows in manchester 1806 (if I remember the date correctly); yes, ideally you'd need more info on them and their connections. In that area and time frame, people were more connected than we think - almost everyone was related or knew someone's cousin, etc. (Like in mormonism in Alberta, if you're a southern Alberta mormon, you have links to about all of the mormons in Alberta, BC, Saskatchewan, etc.)

7. man's name cipher; I did not understand how 276 converts to 143 and 282 converts to 151. This is just one instance, there are more where the conversions are not explained and we're left confused about the methodology.

2 6 4 1 3 2
2 7 6 1 4 3
2 8 2 1 5 1

In your desire to be brief, I think too much is lost in translation. For the laymen like me, everything has to be spelled out. But I've already said that and am sounding like a broken record now. I hope you get more feedback and are able to get your paper to where you want it. Is this a master's thesis or just your own hobby project?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2012 05:47PM by dot.

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