I've talked with bc about this a bit, but everything is culminating now, and I thought I'd gather some more expert info.

I got a job offer that would amount to a 38% raise.
I let my boss know, and he is working on a counter offer, and seems confident that they will match this offer.

I like my current job, and it is at a large/reputable company with great name recognition. I'm being groomed to go into management, which is both exciting and frightening (I'm an excellent programmer, but I have no reason to believe that I would make an excellent manager).

The new job is one I would be very comfortable doing, and I'm convinced I would excel at it, but the company is smaller (not small, but smaller) and has far less name recognition. But, I would be exposed to more technologies, and opportunity to grow in a non-management path.

If I stay, the yearly lay-offs would be more likely to hit me. I also could be viewed as a money-grubbing traitor (especially since I just got a big raise/promotion, when most people on my team didn't... and now I'd be adding an additional 38% to that). But, I know the company is stable, and my stock I'm awarded each year could become very valuable. When/If they move me into management, my resume becomes more diverse, and would let me stay on a high-compensation career track. It also would hedge against the many predictions of programming outsourcing more and more. They also have lots of vacation time, but I end up working so much overtime, that I don't usually take much vacation time.

If I leave, the potential politics of the new job are unknown. The company seems very stable, but it will never be as stable as my current job. I'd learn new technologies, increasing my programming prowess. But I wouldn't really have the option to move into management (if I decide that is something I want to do, or if outsourcing becomes a problem). The company is considering going public, which could potentially give me enough money to retire and work on my side business full time (I'd probably get somewhere between a few hundred thousand and a couple million, if they go public and do well... or the business could fail and I could lose a few thousand [whatever the cost is to exercise my stock options]). They also have less vacation time, but they seem to be averse to making people work overtime.

So, assuming that the offers are 100% equivalent in salary & benefits, what's your advice?
Pros/Cons of experienced people here that I probably haven't considered?

P.S. 1 last tidbit, my current job is very liberal about internet use (hence why I can post here during the day), whereas the new job is VERY strict and tracks internet use thoroughly (as that is one of the products they make), so my RfM time would be only in the evenings.

you can always try this

https://www.freakonomicsexperiments.com/

My experience:

* Smaller companies = more opportunities to grow outside of your established skill set. In small companies, the pool for potential management promotions is smaller, so possibly more or faster opportunities for promotion, if you're interested in climbing up the ladder. At smaller companies, people tend to wear many hats.

* Larger companies tend to be more specialized within a given skill set. Growth and promotional opportunities take longer to make happen and are fewer and further between. Because there are enough people with diverse skill sets to work on a given project, if you're a programmer, you'll always be a programmer. Often the benefit packages are better, such as better medical plans that cover more but cost less because the pool of insured is larger.

Example:
I am an editor.
At smaller companies, I have been the copywriter, the editor, the graphic designer, the pre-press production lead, the accountant/budget girl, the HR girl, the supervisor, and the department representative, the idea pitcher. At the huge publishing company where I work now, I am a copyeditor and have pretty much ONLY been a copyeditor. No writing, designing, managing or budgeting has been necessary. They've got other people to do that stuff, so I end up being a specialist in my little niche. I don't get to diversify and learn other skill sets that could land me other jobs elsewhere later.

So, all things being equal, I think it's mostly about what you want. Make a list of pros and cons about each gig.

I dunno; good luck! That's a great problem to have, isn't it? Which awesome job should I take? :>)

Thanks for the input.
yeah, it is a great problem. I feel silly worrying over such a good thing. But, I've made the wrong choice about companies & career paths before, so I want to think through all the consequences I can fathom before I decide.

You likely have more opportunity for upward movement in the small company.

It's almost impossible to tell which is better job security wise. The big company is more likely to be more stable, but you never know if they will lay off an entire division without even considering how talented the employees are. Likewise there is that risk you are not overpaid relative to your peers.

Then there is also somewhat of that factor of - if I was already worth 34% more to you than you were paying me, why weren't you paying me that?

The other huge advantage of the small company is that you feel like what you are doing actually haves an impact. You aren't just a cog in a wheel where the only purpose is to make stockholders more money.

Also, I know talking to you that your boss isn't always the most appreciative of your work and you are treated like a slave laborer.

Seems like a no-brainer to me - but you already know I think that ;)

Possible cons -

If the environment and politics are bad or go bad in a small business they go really, really bad.

You are leaving a known quantity. You get along reasonably well with your boss - he is reasonably respectful. etc. You know you don't hate it.

...and I just finished reading the entire contract for the new job.
I would be forced to close my ZebraStrut business, and submit written documentation for each of my thousands of inventions otherwise they own them (I'm sure they don't enforce that, but it is very clearly stated in the contract).

That sucks. That mentality that they own all of you is definitely annoying and a concern. That is definitely more likely in a smaller company.

Sometimes such things are negotiable. Especially where you already have a business that doesn't compete.

Anything that keeps you from RFM is evil. Enough said.

Did you fast and pray about it?

haha, sadly that was one of the first things I thought when I got the first verbal offer.
I guess I'm not totally deprogrammed yet ;)

...and I did fast and pray about the 2 business ventures that ended up going very badly.

Adobe was the first job change after my apostasy, and it has been a very positive experience overall.

Oh, the church must be false then. Damn. I was holding out hope. ;)

I never prayed about a good decision. Most everything is a no brainer. God gave us brains to think and decide. JS told us not to read the apocrypha because that is found there, both in the wisdom books and in Judith.

What's the likelihood that you can bargain for a piece of the ownership in the smaller company? If that's a possibility I'd present that to them and see what they say. I don't recommend playing chess, rather just lay your cards on the table:

"my current employer is interested in keeping me. That want to meet your offering, plus they are placing me on a trajectory for management and career growth. I am willing to consider your offer, but you need to recognize the risk and opportunity cost associated with doing that. I am willing to purse an opportunity with a smaller company, but the forward potential is limiting outside of some potential for ownership."

Consider a vesting option, this may make that kind of offer more palatable in your offer. My personal opinion is that you shouldn't just be considering offers, you should also be making a few.

"I don't understand. You're an apostate, an enemy of Heavenly Father's one true church, and you're being offered promotions and raises and stock options when you should be weeping, wailing, and gnashing your teeth. I just don't get it. You don't even pay tithing."

- Random Mormon

Especially since I'm the only apostate in my entire extended family, and 90% or more of my faithful relatives are having money/employment problems.

Is your wife perplexed by this? Seriously - based on what you've told me of her perspective of things, this has to be a head scratcher for her.

I haven't discussed religion with her in quite a while.
I let her find that letter I wrote about how the church is false, and that seemed to have a negative effect on her depression... so I'm letting things simmer for now.

...but I too would be very curious to know the answer to that question. She definitely is grateful that I make a good living, and she definitely worries about her extended family struggling financially.

I remember my parents fed us meager meals of rice and beans for about 2 or 3 years when we lived in California. They would say, "the only reason we aren't starving is because we always pay our tithing, so mom always finds piano students & dad finds enough graphic design work."
I told that FPS on my mission a thousand times, and only discovered a few years ago that it was bull, and my Uncle had been lending them tons of money to support my father through his education.
(also fun to note that these faithful tithe-payers never accepted a dime from the church or anything from the bishops store-house [I don't know if they were offered assistance or not, but I know we never received any])

Based on my experience, I'd say never, ever, ever take a counteroffer. If you do, you'll be burning two bridges: the potential employer will view you as a traitor for backing down from their offer and your current company will view you as disloyal, making you vulnerable to layoff. (Ironically, employees who turn down counteroffers are rarely viewed as disloyal in my experience.)

No one I know who has taken a counteroffer has been happy that they've stayed. Just as one example, my current employer routinely extends counteroffers to everyone who gives notice. Five people have accepted and every one of them was fired (not laid off--FIRED) within a year. The last one was fired in December, while she was pregnant, because she didn't meet some trumped-up goal. Management kept these employees around until they had groomed a co-worker to take over the position or until they had found an outsider with connections.

Hmmm... disconcerting, but thanks for the useful information.

I have seen positive counter-offers here at Adobe... but I've only been here for 2 years, so it isn't a long term track record.

I also got my friend at Novell a job offer that they countered, and he stayed there (that was 4.5 years ago, and he is still at Novell)

Does it change anything that I'm kind of their golden boy?
I make the reports that make the VP and Director look good (once even saving them from possibly getting fired: CEO was coming on Monday to lay the smack down, Thurs night they asked me to make an app to track these issues, so I pulled all nighters for a whole weekend to make a new tool that they told the CEO had been around for months, so obviously they were on top of this issue [when asking me to do it, they said "make sure it looks really polished, because we need him to think that we've had this for about 8 months"])

Your being their golden boy could continue to be a major plus or it could backfire now that you've shown a willingness to leave. Squeebee and Jacob bring up a good point below; they'll expect a great deal more from you now. If you're comfortable with that, and have a plan to prove to them that you plan to stay around for awhile, then things will probably be fine.

There must reasons why you were contemplating leaving in the first place. Will those reasons go away if you stay?

Also, if you do stay, do whatever you can to mend fences with the company who made you the offer you're rejecting. You never know when their hiring manager or your potential co-workers will turn up in your life again.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2013 06:07PM by stbleaving.

I didn't seek out a new job opportunity, but a former co-worker shows a guy my side-projects, and this guy then wooed me with a big offer.

I told my boss before I even had the offer than a guy was trying to woo me, and made it clear that I hadn't sought out this opportunity, but that the bump was big enough that I felt like I couldn't just ignore it out of loyalty.

So I didn't "want" to leave, but I was "willing" to leave for a bigger carrot (which does show a level of disloyalty).

While I'm sure I could do more, I honestly don't think I could do 38% more (I already work a decent amount of overtime). My boss and his boss when giving me the counter offer did say "you were at the bottom of your pay range, and now you'd be at the top, so we would expect your high performance to continue." ...but saying that doesn't mean they aren't hoping for 38% more, and will be disappointed when I don't deliver that much more.

Sorry, I'm rambling as I think out loud.
Good input though, thanks.

If you take a counter offer you must continue to provide value. For an employer to go out of their way to keep an employee it demonstrates that the employer has been more than satisfied. You just can't give them reason to rethink the counter offer.

I think that many times the relationship sours not because of the counter offer in and of its self, but because of the increased expectations that the offer brings with it. One of the parties not meeting the expectations i.e. employer doesn't provided promised benefits or employee doesn't provide increased value, can 86 the whole relationship.

Justrob, I can't read the situation clearly but it seems to me that the entrepreneurial restrictions are an indication of a highly competitive atmosphere. If that is your thing I would jump on it. If however you prefer the relative stability that you are in right now I would negotiate the counter offer and stay where you are at.

That is a good point. The new employer is offering you X for what you currently have to offer. The old employer will expect 38% more from you.

I can only give you advice based on my own experience, so you can take this all with a big grain of salt.

I have worked for the federal government (biggest of the big), for non-profits, and for a company that, when I started, consisted of 3 people (and had 20 employees at the time I retired two years ago).

Each had its pluses and minuses, but in many ways the small company was the best. I learned more there in 10 years than the previous 30. I advanced rapidly and got a lot of pats on the back along the way. There was no bureaucracy (YAY!). Big bonuses and raises. It was in the construction industry so it had its ups and downs, but my bosses were way smart and rode out the 2008 crash without too much difficulty.

Like you, I am not management material. I would be totally miserable with a management job. My feeling is, you have to work every day for years and years -- you better like what you're doing.

As a manager I'd say it's a tough call.

As a hiring manager, I always have to worry that the candidate I'm looking at is just fishing for counter-offer material. I give my best, he goes off for a counter, I can't match it because I already offered my best. As I got close to a good candidate I narrow my focus, now I find myself having to go back and start again on the next most promising candidate. Will I ever offer to that guy again? No.

As a manager of an employee, I generally don't even try to counter, I wish them well. The reason is that in my mind you're in or you're out. Would you call your spouse, say someone sexy is offering to sleep with you, and ask what she has to offer? Now that's not always the same with every manager, but I also look at move-ups as something to celebrate, and I stay friends with my team after.

That said, where are you located if you don't mind my asking? We're always hiring good programmers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2013 05:30PM by squeebee.

Your true security is your talent which you will always have. I'd go with the smaller company; more oportunity for you to grow and expand. The potential payoff if they go public would also be like winning the lottery. So, jump in and be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

...there are more potential people in the company (perhaps being paid less) who could replace you if the company goes through more downsizing. And there are probably more people above you on the ladder who would need to leave/retire/die before you could move up.