Last week the in-laws came over to visit and watched our daughter and new baby so we could go to the store. (How nice! We haven't been out just the two of us in such a long time!)

But while we were at the store, my FIL snooped around the house and found a worksheet my wife did in marriage counseling. This was a deeply personal exercise where she was supposed to answer several questions and be completely honest, often saying the first thing that came to mind. I wasn't even supposed to (and didn't) read it, so she could be as candid as she'd like.

Well this pedantic, self-righteously pious CES director bishop doesn't think any rules apply to him because he's on a holy mission. So he read the whole thing. And told my MIL all about it. And then their caps blew.

A few evenings later I came home to find none other that my in-laws in my house, sitting on my couch, holding my children, demanding to talk. Here are some highlights:



FIL: What do you think about faith?

jackjoseph: I think faith is fine when there's no evidence either way, but --

MIL (arrogant and condescending): -- Oh, there's plenty of evidence! It just depends on where you look.

MIL: Let me explain. Imagine if YOUR daughter married somebody. And you THOUGHT he was a nice guy, but then he turned into somebody COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, and was dragging her down!

jackjoseph: [At this point I'd had it. I'm all about maintaining the peace in the family, but they had long since violated my boundaries.] Bringing her down? Mrs. jackjoseph is not 7 years old. You keep making her out to be a weak, spineless little girl that can't stand up for herself or think for herself or make her own decisions. This was just as much her decision as it was mine! It's something we came to together. I'm not forcing her to do anything.

FIL: Let me make this clear. I do not hate jackjoseph ... blah blah blah ... blah blah blah ... But you better do EVERYTHING you can to support her in going to church (any church). And if you don't then I will HATE YOU for the rest of my life. And if so, I hope you BURN IN HELL for it.

FIL: If she wants to go to church, don't you say "Oh, you want to go to that church where Joseph Smith fornicated with teenage girls!"

jackjoseph: I think Joseph Smith WAS a philanderer.

FIL: Don't say things you've said before, like "That church demeans women and I don't want it for my daughter."

jackjoseph: I do believe girls in the church grow up with a sense of inferiority, because blah blah blah. (I hadn't said that one to him previously, but TBM family gossip gets around fast ...)

jackjoseph: I've made up my mind that the church is false and I'm not going to change it.



And the rest is pretty obvious. They left with both sides angry and now visits are strained and awkward. So much for happy extended family relations ...

And it's all because of cult indoctrination. They can't accept that we're good, genuine people, much less that we're making good decisions for their grandchildren. To accept that would be to compromise the validity of the cult.

If they had that tantrum in front of children, they crossed a red line. Ban them seeing the kids for a while.

How did they get in? What does your wife think. It is really better in general to let her handle them - if she will.

Horrible.

My MIL took our daughter for the day so my wife could have time alone with the new baby. They were in my house because the two of them came over together to bring my daughter back home. (It's an hour-long round trip and my wife even offered to pick her up, but they declined because they wanted to "bring her home".)

They waited around the house for about 45 minutes before I got home and they could have their little conversation.

The whole thing was set up so they could have a serious talk with me. My wife tried to politely avoid it but they were too persistent.

Seriously.
If my in-laws ever snooped through our private papers they would never, ever be allowed to set foot in the house again.

Your "babysitters" are just too expensive emotionally.

This right here.
I know my mother in law AND my mother herself would both snoop, given the opportunity. Neither of them are allowed to be alone in my house.
My dad himself would not snoop, but also would not stop my mother.

This violation of boundaries needs to be addressed, and it looks like your wife has become used to this treatment after growing up with them. You may need to be the "bad guy" for your own sanity and enforce some boundaries, but expect no back up from your wife.
I would lay down the law about their snooping, and they have no authority in your house, much as they think FIL does... But it's easy to armchair quarterback when I have no skin in the game.

I think about cutting my mother off, but she will ride that pity pony to her grave, how she's always known I'm such a bad child. Well, treat me like a bad child my entire life and see how much I want to be around you!
Sorry, my own issues creeping in. Snooping like that is unforgivable to me, and it's been done to me too many times to count.

They definitely crossed the line and they were lucky not to be kicked out. You were right to point out that your wife is old enough to make decisions. It's difficult to always think of exactly the right thing to say on the spot but I suppose I'd emphasise the following if this continues:

* That they might indeed choose to hate you if she never goes back to church, but that's their own decision and it's hardly befitting of a Christian.
* It was poor that he chose to snoop around and read confidential information. Ask him when it would be ok for you to come and snoop in his private things, read his journal etc.
* Say you can understand his disappointment, but the way he has blown a fuse in this just reinforces your view of the church as a controlling organisation that pitches family members against each other.
* If they ever talk to you like that again, you'll reconsider just how much they'll see the two of you and their grandchildren (obviously only use this if in agreement with your wife).

Good luck.

I would not let people in my house who snoop through my private things and tell me I'm going to burn in hell. Period.

My parents, Inlaws, or anyone else that went through MY home and read MY private papers, then used my children as a barrier, would be thrown out on their ass. I wouldn't give a damn about keeping peace with them.

There would be no relationship to keep the peace in. They would be done and finished. Especially with my kids. The kids are better off with NO grand parents than to be subjected to that garbage.

Those people wouldn't be allowed to set foot in my life or my childrens lives ever again.

Bad family situation and you have a lot of things going on here.

One good thing I see is you have someone who is an active player in the Mormon disinformation game. Most will say find a way to make peace and co-exist, but if a war needs to be won. You have all the ammo on your side and they are sitting dead in the water. CES Director are trained to lie and misinform, members of their family are their most cruel victims as the source of their food and housing is from the Mormon Church.

Wish we could do a tag team on this guy, but I know this one is yours and your wife's to sort through.

I don't think there is any way to have a rational conversation about religion with them. When it comes up, say you refuse to discuss it and leave the room. Actions speak a lot louder than words with this sort.

I think your wife is in a worse position than you are. You are righteously and completely angry. You can vent here and raise our collective blood pressure. She has all the history, and far more to lose. She will get it from both sides and doesn't appear to have the skills to stand up to them - as most os us Mormon raised women don't.

What can you do for her? Does she have a support system? The angrier she sees you get, the worse she'll feel is my guess. Calming you down might become a higher priority for her than dealing with them. (been there, done that:)

Ironically, one of the very aspects of mormonism that they accused you have stating, i.e., "That church demeans women and I don't want it for my daughter...dragging her down", they themselves embodied in that very conversation. They viewed their daugher as unempowered, weak, etc. I sware these people are nucking futz.

What struck me was how blantantly insulting they were to you. It would have been tempting to have thrown it back in their faces,

"Let me explain. Imagine if YOUR In-laws were whom you THOUGHT were nice, but then he turned into somebody COMPLETELY DIFFERENT..boundaryless, coniving, hypocritcal..."

Dude, you need to have an adult conversation with your wife about setting boundaries with your in-laws. That is ridiculous.

Wow, that's way out of line particularly in front of your children.

If these were my parents, I admit I would have a pretty hard time wanting to maintain *any* sort of relationship with them out of fear for what they might do to meddle with my children's thinking.

I wish you and your wife well as you figure out how to set and enforce boundaries, even if it means far more limited contact or no contact.

I think at the minimum, as hard as it might be, no more unsupervised time with the kids, no more unfettered access to your home. They've already shown that they're willing to put your kids in the middle of it by throwing such a tantrum in their presence so they will be willing to do anything to indoctrinate and brainwash them about TSCC, and obviously that they have no respect whatsoever for your privacy.

I'm so sorry you have to cope with "family" like this.

I guess they absolutely do not believe in following the 11th Article of Faith:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

These people didn't just cross the line... they took a flying leap over it and crash landed on the other side. I hope you take some of the excellent advice on this thread!!

Tell them this is how it works~this is your home and family. They will never snoop again or they will never be allowed to enter your home again. They will respect that your wife and you are adults who can and will make decisions that are best for your family even if they don't agree with them. If they ever disrespect either your wife or you again in front of your kids, they will not see their grandchildren again for a long time.

Too late for saying, "This happens one more time and there'll be consequences!"

Telling someone to their face in their home in front of their children that if they don't please you in their religious practice and belief they will hate you forever and wish you burn in hell is so completely out of line, your FIL may as well have spit on you.

No one needs to have anyone point out that that behavior is unacceptable. It was way unacceptable and that was the point. You comply, or you don't. You submit or you don't. I certainly wouldn't submit. There would absolutely be no next time: no coming in my house, no seeing my children. Period. Until there was an apology.

Make a blanket prohibition against further contact. The apology, or at least a "mistakes were made" non-apology will be coming soon. TSSC will release a memo saying make nicey-nice with the doubters and apostates in your families, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar after all. All these "eternal families" shattering with each tiny bump in the road is going to start causing a major headache for the church, if it hasn't already. When lots of parents with gay children started looking around and realized they weren't the only ones, and the church had better come up with a better solution than forcing them to ostracize their own kids, the church started waffling. The same thing will happen with your situation. This much brittleness withing supposedly eternal families will have to be addressed by the powers that be. Veils don't stay over people's eyes when they're standing in high winds. The church'll have to start stepping in to settle this stuff down.

She may need help seeing that their behavior is seriously toxic.

I agree that they shouldn't be allowed back in your home or alowed alone with your children again. However, unless she agrees as well, it's not going to work. And it's a huge step that some people have a hard time taking.

Communication (between you and your wife) is going to be the key to turning this into a more positive situation. Good luck.

Wow - that totally stinks!

I can definitely empathize with this in a FIL:
"Well this pedantic, self-righteously pious CES director bishop doesn't think any rules apply to him because he's on a holy mission"
because mine is exactly the same way! I am concerned about how it will play out with our daughter as she gets older if they spend time with her when we're not around. Are you concerned what the in-laws will be saying to your children?

The truth is I'm not too concerned about that aspect. This may be unfounded, by here's how I see it: If I raise them up with the freedom to think for themselves, clearly and critically, they'll have no issue seeing through the smoke and mirrors. Especially since I'll make sure they are aware of all the available information.

Ever notice how christian fundamentalists are scared to death of their children learning evolution, but scientifically-minded parents don't mind if their kids are exposed to the adam and eve myth?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 04:14PM by jackjoseph.

Great point. Have you ever read Richard Dawkin's letter to his daughter?

Good point!

she can. She may need you to take point or work as a team on this one if she is not strong enough yet. For women that have been raised in LDSInc learning to stand up for themselves takes time and practice.

I would put my foot down big time about spending ANY alone time with the kids. The new baby isn't really an issue yet but if you think they are not working on your older daughter you are crazy. Teaching her to pray their way, learning songs, temple talk. I have seen it first hand, I was used as a tool against my non believing family members and it is not a nice position to be in. I was even told it was my responsibility to get family members to the temple so that we could all be together in Heaven. MAJOR guilt to drop on a kid. And your in-laws will feel 100% justified. You know they have ZERO normal boundaries, you can expect that to carry over to the kids.

If they ever do this again I would consider this response:

Do you want to have any access to your grandchildren?

Yes (or whatever they say)

Then I highly recommend you change the subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 05:14PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

+

They are undermining you as parents, in front of your young children. This crosses the line. They were using the grandchildren as bait, and ammo.

I'd stand for none of it. This ends, now. The kids aren't ammo, for either of you, however, they also are innocent and YOUR children. Any interference or inference that you and your wife are mislead or evil or wrong or bad parents leaves them with no unsupervised access.


My ex FIL had a key to our place once while they were staying with us while they were moving. We didn't take it back, didn't think i needed to.

One day, i come home to find a note my FIL had on our computer, "I needed to take a memory card out of your computer, will bring it back later..." my ex, could not understand why I was livid.

This same person would call and leave 10-15 messages on our phones asking random questions, wanting us to come over for dinner, wondering why we hadn't called him back about hiking... etc.... the WHOLE family was this way....

Then, 2 days later, my ex hadn't, of course said anything to his father... so.... I go out to MY living room (luckily dressed) for a cup of water at 6 am. Ex FIL is sitting in my living room playing his guitar and waiting for us to get up so he could take us to breakfast and chat (about nothing.).... my ex still didn't get it.

We moved to Oregon. It got a little better... 6 months later... they followed us.

Things like this make me SO happy I am out of a cult which teaches in-laws especially to ignore normal social, and healthy family boundaries...

What did your wife think about all of this? I would be seriously pissed. I have zero trust for my mother, which is why I never leave her alone in my home. Is your wife equally angry about her personal writings being violated? Here she is allowing them in her home to badger you. She needs to step up and tell them they were completely out of line and possibly bar contact. It sucks. I have been on the ass end of a rumor started by my mother, so babysitting ended pretty quickly at that point, and other trust issues disallowed leaving the children alone in her home as well for a long time. You got ganged up on and your wife seemed complacent with it or unable to say no.

Whoa... 'HATE YOU' .... 'BURN IN HELL' ....


Some kinda Christian fella there, eh?


This guy is a wack job...


Typical Cult Member

Are you financially dependent on you in-laws? If you are, you may need to tread lightly or become financially independent of them and quick!!

This kind of crap blows me away. My son is 19 and a freshman in college and I've realized that he is an adult and even though I'm not thrilled about all of his decisions, they are HIS decisions and dh and i have no choice but to accept that.

The way your in-laws are treating you and your wife is like you are being naughty little kids. You need to tell CES/Douchebag/fil/bishop/whatever title he has that he needs to butt out of your lives and until he can be respectful, any contact will be very limited. Also tell him that he has lost priviliges to be in your home without supervision. Also tell him that he doesn't get to dictate what kind of conversations you and your wife have. His behavior is really bad and over the top.

No. We don't have any financial ties with any family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2013 11:30PM by jackjoseph.

I think you need to take the high road with your FIL and tell him to go fuck himself.

jackjoseph,

I believe it's time to change the locks on your house.

And, don't give your in-laws new keys.

As others have said, there is no way that they would be allowed in my house again, after snooping through personal papers. That was so out-of-line that I can't even express it in words. You'd have to see the look on my face right now.

I would have let them have it. It would be, "How dare they come into my house and decide that they can dictate what I can and can't do with my own life?"

I would tell them that they have crossed a line and that it would be a very long time before I ever trusted them again. They would have to earn that trust and until then, the house would be off-limits to them.

Turn it right around on them and call them on their horrid behaviour.

Alot of things going on here indeed and I think you need to prioritize.

I'd forget the church thing for a while and make it clear to them (probably your wife that should do it, a letter might be best so no response from in-laws is required, just their compliance) that their snooping was a major, major, boundry violation and they are no longer welcome in your house.

If you see them at all, or they see the grand kids at all, it will be in neutral territory, I wouldn't even set foot in their house.

Again, don't let then boundry violation and the church thing get mixed up. There will be plenty of time to deal with the church later.

Wow. I had an ex-JW girlfriend for a few years, and I had a number of conversations with her parents that are very similar to this one.

These people were just as committed to their society as mormons are to "the church."

It's also funny... okay, it's sad, that in both of these cases, somehow it's the MAN that has ruined the woman. It's the man's job to keep the woman in line. Women are subservient, and not responsible for themselves.

These two religions have overstayed their welcome.

A line I recently chuckled at from a Law & Order rerun.... "You better check your watch, you're running a few decades behind."