I'm doing an academic presentation later this week on how masculinity is defined/depicted/taught in TSCC. I will include info from the Miracle of Forgiveness, the BKP little factory pamphlet, etc. and then include a couple of stories from (gay) guys whose lives were affected by all this because they deviated from what they were supposed to be as LDS men.
But I'm curious -- gay or straight, what did you think the church was telling you about what men are supposed to be? In what ways did you feel you didn't meet their ideal? How did it affect your sense of being a man?
Funny you should mention that! For my power point slides I've downloaded those images and zoomed in on all the muscles. I'm sure the audience will love it.
Righteous priesthood holders (tools of the Church or God)
Tools do what they are told.
Mormonism trains men to be tools.
That's my answer just wanted to work through the nice spin to get to the truth. Tools is a fun word that can be used in a multiple of ways except in the capacity to discern and create.
The users and the used, the Alpha males and the Beta males they exploit. With a few exceptions, LDS Alpha males aren't even that masculine. They're Alphas by being more delusional and/or less principled than the rest of the Betas. (See Joseph Smith.)
Mormonism is a self-filtering institution. Men with what the rest of the world usually considers masculine qualities tend to leave the church. They're less likely to put up with the church's crap.
Even though earlier Mormonism was populated with tough, work-with-their-hands guys -- farmers, tradesmen, etc. -- modern Mormonism favors white collar men with soft hands and soft voices. Executives, not carpenters.
Mormonism promises the Beta males that if they kiss Alpha male butt well enough, they will one day get to be the ultimate Alpha males: gods. With lots of hot wives. And endless power and glory. Woot! So LDS masculinity is sold as being a really good servant -- to the Alphas.
Hi Inverso. This sounds so cool. I'd love to chat with you about your research sometime as it sounds like we have overlapping interests. Also, I'm coordinating a new section on gender, sexuality and socialization for MormonThink and would love to possibly share resources with you. You could remain completely anonymous.
If you're interested, please drop me line: darkfem.now@gmail.com
Thanks! And enjoy your presentation! Return and report :)
It's hard to pinpoint. You have to be a strong, alpha breadwinner who can survive in the wilderness with nothing but a knife while simultaneously being moved to crocodile tears anytime some utters the words "I know."
I never was, but I think I tolerated those that disagreed with me too much anwas too analytical. Both of these set me apart and made sure I wasn't ever what was wanted in a man. Also, when it came to the women, I never lorded my priesthood over them, I think that made me seem less masculine to the average BYU girl.
This is an interesting topic. I think it probably depends on your own father to large extent.
I actually always associated mormon men with being skinny guys in suits who couldn't/didn't do anything cool. These were my friends fathers. My father, who I absolutely did and do think the world of was jack mormon, but also a body builder, loved to hunt and fish, could build/fix anything and was a soldier in the Guard. Every kid in the neighborhood wished they had my dad. He owned kick-ass 4x4's rather than vans and cars. He was scout leader for years and actually took the scouts to real, remote places to camp and knew how to actually do things like orienteering, knots and real first aid based on his training with the military where he was a medic and later an engineer.
Needless to say I grew up trying to be my dad, not the "mormon" dads I was surrounded by at church every week.
MENTALLY, I think they really mess boys up. I was raised to be a weak, subservient beta male, and didn't even realize it until I left in my mid 20's. They constantly drilled it into me to be humble, meek, softspoken, quickly driven to tears, and to follow all the rules with exactness. I grew up thinking my ideal self was a bland, unsure-of-himself "nice guy" who submits to authority and is humbly aware of his low value compared to others (especially mormon women -- I was to raise them up on a pedestal and grovel at their feet). Since leaving I've realized that real masculinity is to be confident and assertive. Not submissive, humble, meek, timid, and/or prone to tears.
Physically I didn't feel like the the church itself encouraged or discouraged much strength or manliness. The nephites were definitely all juicing up on roids, but that same image is idealized in action movies outside the mormon church. When I was 18 I did a bodybuilding competition and the bishop told me that sculpting your body all day is unbecoming of a melchizedek priesthood holder. There was also a huge personal trainer in the ward who wanted to compete but didn't because of this bishop.
I'm dealing with this too. I won't get into lengthy explanations, but the short version is that most straight guys associate this beta-male behavior with gay guys. The real story is that, as a rule, gay guys are into masculinity, so the attention goes to the alphas. Bad for me, and difficult to re-wire at my age.
I felt the exact same way. I was taught that being a man was to serve a mission and submit yourself to the church. Luckily for me I did not submit to a mission and have left the church.
Just take it. Whatever the abuses you just take it. Unless someone criticizes the church then you should leap to it's defense. (Criticism of your wife who works or your children who didn't sign up for seminary, no leaping to their defense.)
I guess my experience growing up was different than a lot of what's expressed here. Of the three bishops I can recall growing up, two were tradesmen (one worked in the oil business, the other owned a tar business); the other was a pharmaceutical rep. This is about 15 years ago.
My ward was somewhat bifurcated between the softies and the guys who were really interested in helping the boys take responsibility; the latter group won out. We did 50 and 100-mile backpacking trips in the summer, had Wednesday night activities that covered meaningful auto repair and other skills, and a bunch of other nifty activities. I can honestly say that, truth claims of the church aside, some of the members who taught me growing up were fantastic individuals who taught me a good deal not only about trades but about self-reliance and responsibility.
That's not what I see in the Utah wards, however. An active Mo used to sit in the next cubicle over where I work in Utah county; he'd been called as an assistant scoutmaster and was grumping about parents who were unhappy with his proposal for a 5-mile round-trip overnighter somewhere. The parents were apparently unhappy with any backpacking at all. We remenisced about how things used to be, and how now, like everything else, the YM activities seem to be getting the correlation treatment.
In any case, where I lived growing up was about 1 or 2% Mormon, tops. The Mormons had a good rep in most quarters; with the exception of perhaps one, nobody would really accuse them of being 'soft.' Mormon masculinity, at least in the culture I was in, was defined largely as being hard-working and self-reliant.
Utah's just... different. The pressure on becoming fathers, I think, leads men to neglect the usual predicates for parents: a stable job, a career path, a means to provide, etc. In its push to encourage fatherhood, I think the church pushed the need to develop independence and self-reliance to the side, which is a tragedy for the members who took on the mantle of fatherhood long before they were ready to.
In fairness, I feel I must deliver my lecture. As jobs like "secretary" and "clerk" are demeaned because they are typically seen as "women's work," a lot of people have lost track of what the words actually mean.
"Clerk" is derived from the word cleric. The cleric was usually the only educated person in a village or fief. The cleric was the one who could read, write and do sums. The cleric was a very important person as a result.
"Secretary" means "keeper of the secrets." Also an educated person, the secretary was privy to every bit of business that the castle- or fief-holder had.
Please don't demean this work. The only reason that it's seen as "lowly" is the "women's work" business.
I would say the church defines the masculine as (1) moral (2) a good soldier and (3) a minister to the needy. Sins for a guy in LDS culture are to indulge in taboo vices, not doing your assigned duty, and to not be working to save those around you. It trains guys to be good workers, useful servants, and capable managers. that is the ideal lds man. After all what is the lds god if not a manager bringing glory to the god above him?
Mormons seem to be fine with the effeminate sort of man. In the church I know many more effeminate guys than seemingly normal men. I hope I wasn't that way, too.
Real men don't obey at the expense of their own families and selves.
Real men don't obey as their own minds and self esteem shrivel.
Real men don't obey some old fools living in the dark ages while a nation around them progresses and grows.
Real men don't pay tithing to build a mall when their kids need braces, medical, or even tango lessons.
Real men don't wear magic underwear that might as well be considered the equivalent of holy handcuffs.
The Mormon church is no man's land.
When I was in the church I did what I was told when I was told how I was told. I was told that's what men do. I was praised for it. So, by their standards I was man enough, but not by mine--not anymore.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2013 10:26AM by blueorchid.
What worries me most (and I see it in many of the comments here) is the rigid idea of gender roles. Some people, men and women, are naturally soft spoken. Some are outspoken. Some excel at leading, and others going along with leaders.
Physical differences aside, why can't we simply allow people to develop their best natural self without all of the "shoulds". Gender roles and attributes are still very contrived. We don't live in caves where we need to send the man out to hunt. Physical strength, mental strength, and emotional sensitivity can all be good attributes for both genders.
TSCC perpetuates gender roles and defines now people "should" be according to their gonads. Looks like most (?) people are not past the idea of "should."
moonbeam Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ...why can't we simply > allow people to develop their best natural self > without all of the "shoulds".
The natural self is the enemy of God, according to Mormonism. ;-)