One of the more common topics here on RfM seems to be masturbation. I have a tendency to write long post, but this time I'll get right to the point.

1. Masturbation is NOT on the temple recommend questions
2. Masturbation is NOT required to be asked about for temple recommend, for missionary recommendation or any other ecclesiastical interview within the Mormon Church. Church leaders that do so are doing so on their own.
3. Mormon parents should specifically tell their children NOT to discuss anything sexual with other adults including religious leaders. I prepared my children with the line, "I'm sorry but my father has instructed me not to discuss that topic with you and I choose to honor my father and mother". Fortunately, none of them were ever asked, because it's not a required topic.
4. Bishops or other church leaders that make Masturbation a talking point of an interview are likely to do so for their own prurient interest, it is NOT a required topic in any interview. There is not written instruction in the Handbook of Instruction or anywhere else that directs this line of questioning.
5. Virtually all teen aged boys and most adult men masturbate (including the bishop and the stake president). I believe Church leaders that make this a focus are in fact dealing with personal issues.
6. Many if not most teenaged girls and apparently from what I keep hearing most women masturbate.
7. You will not get sent home from a mission for masturbation (unless perhaps you do it with someone else mutually)
8. Masturbation is not a problem unless done to excess when it interferes with life and or healthy relationships
9. Mormon parents should specifically tell their bishop NOT to discuss sex or ask any specific or leading questions about sex with their underaged children.
10. Parents have the right to be present and may insist on their presence in any interview with any adult, including ecclesiastical leaders.

During my time as a mission president I got tired of hearing about this issue. Elder after elder and an occasional sister (pretty sure my face turned red every time a sister missionary confessed this to me) would feel the need to unburden themselves. I was astounded with the level of guilt instilled in these kids by Church leaders. It's gotta stop.

Finally, and please excuse this, but FUCK BOYD PACKER TO HELL.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 08:46PM by Susan I/S.

Good list, but I think I might change #6 to 'most women'

euphegenia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good list, but I think I might change #6 to 'most
> women'

I agree totally!

+1

I edited bullet point 6

Good onya SLDrone!!!I couldn't agree more!!

Yes, but there's that pesky idiot Spencer W. Kimball, who wrote some rather stupid things in a book, that Mormons like to treat as scripture, who mucks everything up.

I am really surprised that the church hasn't tried to round up every existing copy of "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and stuffed them into the vault yet. Hell, I am surprised it is still even in print.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, but there's that pesky idiot Spencer W.
> Kimball, who wrote some rather stupid things in a
> book, that Mormons like to treat as scripture, who
> mucks everything up.
>
> I am really surprised that the church hasn't tried
> to round up every existing copy of "The Miracle of
> Forgiveness" and stuffed them into the vault yet.
> Hell, I am surprised it is still even in print.


Fondly recalling the part when he says that wearing shorts above the knee is immodest and that women should only wear shorts when tending to their gardens. Oh I'm so glad to be free now.

My father the mormon pedophile gave me a copy of that once, I could never bring myself to read it. One of the best decisions of my life.

What amazes me is that the LDSC has not sent out an official announcement on this topic. Why is this not stated in any leadership manual? If the LDSC really cared about us, they would have had this issue solved long ago. I can't wait for the earthquake to hit salt lake so the GOD DAMN headquarters building will fall with every GA inside. I want to watch that city burn.

I wonder if it was partially my thread that caused you to post this. The temple recommend question I believe states "Do you follow the law of chastity?" So now for the million dollar question, is masturbation a violation of the law of chastity?

the Law of Chastity, and to put them under covenant to obey this law, which is, that the daughters of Eve, and the sons of Adam shall have no sexual intercourse except with their husbands or wives to whom they are legally and lawfully wedded,

So I guess prior to 1990 blow jobs were allowed. :)

I'm sure that without guidance from HQ on this topic, renegade Bishops are assuming that a 13 year old boy jizzing in a sock means he is having sex with his sock, without whom he is legally and lawfully wed. I laugh at this stuff, and then it just makes me sad and angry.

Aw, SLDrone, you've gotten so naughty. Naughty-naughty.

The reason this isn't announced is probably the same reason that the rescinding of that the stupid 1982 ban on oral sex wasn't announced...they're afraid. Afraid that once the faithful find out it's not a mortal sin, they'll start masturbating with abandon and discover they're not going to be hit by lightning if they do it. And maybe the TBM young men might not be in such a huge rush to get married, if they know they can get guilt-free relief on their own if need be.

Was the Mormon god mistaken to allow young people have a sex drive? If it's so awful, why didn't he program humans so desire didn't kick in until age 21 or something? Sheesh.

And that is very interesting about how the temple endowment uses the specific term "sexual intercourse" when referring to the law of chastity.

However, I know that growing up in the church, I was taught specifically (and officially) that masturbation is very much a violation of the law of chastity.

From the Aaronic Priesthood manual:

"The law of chastity means that a man must not have intimate physical relations with anyone except his own wife. The Lord has commanded, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Exodus 20:14). The law of chastity is not limited to just adultery, however. It extends to all improper uses of the divine power of procreation. Among the other ways man misuses this sacred power are fornication (including living together without marriage), homosexuality, abortion, and masturbation."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=f5beff3ff4c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=ba805f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD


So, whenever I was asked about my compliance to the law of chastity during any interview (even if masturbation wasn't specifically mentioned, although it usually was), I understood I was lying if I claimed I was obeying the law but practicing masturbation. That being said, the last time I talked to any church authority on the subject (about 15 years ago, with a bishop who was quoting the stake president) I was told that I should NOT confess masturbation, but that it was to be treated in the same way "impure thoughts" were--that is, just between the Lord and me.

So, needless to say, the status of the "confessability" of masturbation is quite confusing ... and maybe they want to keep it that way?

(Oh, and I can't agree more with your final point: "FB[KKK]PTH!")



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 02:46AM by Fetal Deity.

it doesn't matter what the questions are today. I was asked in every interview while I was single if I did the M thing. In fact, I didn't even know what it was until the bishop first explained what it was at age 12. That's inappropriate, and it was horribly embarrassing, even though I wasn't "guilty" of it. It shamed and violated me to even be asked the question.

In my teen years, I was most definitely taught that M was a serious sin.

I know that there are boys who have been kept home from missions because they were honest about this issue, some with disastrous shaming results.

I remember being pretty hard on one of my small children about this issue, because I thought it was THAT serious. I have since apologized, and I feel terrible about shaming a young child for something that came naturally.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't MATTER what's an official interview question NOW. It must have been standard at some point, and a whole generation was raised believing that it made you unworthy. They've never corrected it.

Also, I would dare say that if someone was not asked, but confessed to it, they would STILL be denied a temple recommend.

The biggest problem of ALL, is that people are grilled about their "worthiness" in private interviews. It's like a forced confession, and rather than being freely forgiven, they are shamed and denied forgiveness. Nobody should have to confess their faults to another person. If God forgives*, then He is the only one who needs to know.

*Not that I believe in God.

A bishop gave me the MoF in 2005. I had already thrown one out that was given to me in 1999.

I immediately recognized it as a book that did nothing more than re-victimize the victims.

The last time I was given that book I threw it out without ever opening it. I was being polite.

I'll never be polite about that again.

SLDrone, I appreciate your insights due to your MP experiences. I served a mission 30 years ago and even back during that time noticed that the "severity" of masturbation was subjective to the church leader.

Cases in point:
Home bishop - no big deal
Stake President - Big deal
MTC branch president - no big deal
1st MP - Big Deal
2nd MP - Didn't talk about it but other elders in the mission reported he asked them about it ( but not me, ironically).

And then there is BYU. The bishops of the BYU wards were pathologically fixated on the subject. Not a single interview with a BYU bishop or Stake presidency member that didn't include a question about masturbation.

In the post BYU/temple married years some bishops would inquire about it some wouldn't.

In other words, in a church that standardizes, correlates and controls all aspects of its message why does it not get its self straight on this particular topic? Especially when they are literally fuc*ing with the minds of tens of thousands of young men and women?

Perhaps from your experience with higher church leadership you have some insight into that?

Mission Presidents are "trained" at the MTC the end of every June and then sent to the field on July 1st (more or less)

This training consist of daily large meetings where each an every apostles eventually shows up to speak over the course of a week, culminating with the Prophet making an appearance and big send off on the last day. During the week there are multiple break out sessions conducted by members of the 1st quorum. It was in one of these break out sessions that someone specifically asked how to respond to confessions of masturbation. I don't remember the exact words but the gist of the answers from the seventy conducting was that too much has been made of that issue in the past and not to make a big deal about it. The question got sort of glossed over.

I agree with what has been said about the inconsistency of leadership responses. I'm not sure why TSCC isn't more clear on the matter because it indeed creates A LOT of mental anguish and suffering, especially on the youth trying to deal with the guilt. It's ridiculous.

I continue to suggest that local church leaders that focus on that as an issue have their own issues, either voyeurism or guilt, themselves. I speculate that church leaders who don't ever indulge themselves are very far and few between. Hypocrisy is an interesting beast with lots of interesting manifestations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 01:38PM by SLDrone.

Hi Everyone.

Great topic and thread. I served my mission 1979-1981 and yes the M question was always present with ervy interview over most of my life.. I was even delayed going until I had gone a month without an M event, LOL. My son was kept from passing the sacrament long ago because of it. The MofF is one of the worst , most harmful books ever written. Think about it Kimbal was an insurance salesman!! Anyweays, just had to vent. Hell yes M happens to everyone and I agree with you. BTW my son is out of TSCC and is an atheist, Also graduated with a degree in Physics. I am very proud of him. I wish more therapist would come out and say how harmful all the shaming and guilt is over this. Wish TSCC would continue to be exposed for the tyrannical and harmful way it rules over its members. BTW i have been out for 12 years.

In my interviews with the bishop, I was never asked directly about masturbation. Only asked about keeping the law of chastity. But I've always been over honest, sharing too mu h personal info with anyone who would listen I guess trying to prove that I'm trustworthy (Im working on not doing that anymore!). So when asked about the law of chastity, I'd always give more info than needed, or I felt like I was lying. I never felt worthy enough.

I think we can probably all agree that people are troubled by the accusation and the shame that LDS Inc publicly puts people through about a natural human process.

I think it is wrong to to water this down. The problem is not that it is an 'official' question. The problem is that unvetted old men are having sexual conversations behind closed doors with children. These guys belong in JAIL.

Young people are publicly shamed. Everyone in the congregation knows why Bryce and Nephi are not passing the sacrament today.

And, FWIW, I think an argument could be made that Boyd KKK Packers 'For Young Men Only' is LDS scripture.

TSCC is absolutely remiss in their failure to control this conversation and the result is that countless people of been severely traumatized an subjected to self recrimination and agony.

To paraphrase a line from one of my favorite classics, "what I'm going to do on BKP's grave won't pass for flowers".

I've been excoriated on here for mentioning that masturbation isn't as big of a focus as it used to be and that it is only a problem depending on the poor kid's bishop.

You sound a lot like my mission president who told me the chill the hell out for the exact same reasons :)

BKP's "For young mem only" is still published by the Church
This says to me that in TSCC doctrine the big "M" is still a sin

http://www.lds.org/manual/to-young-men-only/to-young-men-only

Next in line and pres of the 12. No one dares defy him. That piece of garbage speech will be swept under the rug about 5 minutes after his dark heart pumps out it's last milliliter of venom.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 04:35PM by SLDrone.

Definition of "@sshole"

The hole they bury Packer in.

I went 3 and 1/2 years without masturbating, it was torcher, I thought its what I needed to do to be spiritually in tune on my mission. One week on my mission I had 3 wet dreams in one week.

Mesa West Stake President added it to the temple recommend questions in the late 90's. They also asked in minor interviews.

Oh look that stake was closed last year. Good riddance. There seemed to be a rush of people moving out of there about this time.

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2012/08/stake-discontinued-in-arizona.html

SLDrone !!!
I bow to you.

The fear I felt over this topic of sex consumed my single life and single-handedly motivated me to marry without any real understanding of how to pick a compatible partner -- or more importantly if I should even marry.

all of those memories rushed back in two of your sentences.
""I was astounded with the level of guilt instilled in these kids by Church leaders. It's gotta stop.""


I was single in the era of Kimball who preached that it didn't matter who you married just as long as you got married? (paraphrasing.)
I have trouble forgiving him.

It DOES matter who you marry.

I think the times are changin'.
From what I see many of the single age lds people are affected by their environment differently and the guilt card doesn't seem to have quite the same hold on many of them as it did in my era.

I thought of this a few weeks ago as I watched the Bachelorette tv show. (yeah I know I'm watching the bachelorette) The main bachelor in the running is an lds guy from SLC. Right at the beginning his opening hand gesture symbol attention grabber was the 2 finger pistol. Clearly this good mormon knew exactly what that meant which was why he used it. The other guys on the show laughed at it. From all accounts he and his family consider themselves staunch mormons, and it seems that the definition these days of what constitutes a staunch mormon -- or a ""good"" mormon is very broad and vague.

All I could think is that it's a different era and if a "good" lds boy goes on the show to find love AND use the 2 finger pistol as his catch symbol then the mormon sexual guilt machine surely hasn't got as much grasp on the single-aged people as it once did a few decades ago.
I always thought that guilt was a very inferior way of trying to get (train) people not to have pre-marital sex. Apparently it's not working on a large number of current singles and I hope Packers crap dies with him. I'm not sure many of the lds youth are even familiar with Packers more racier dogma (hopefully.)

But I sure do know what you mean about Packer and hopefully healthier options will prevail for the young lds of tomorrow.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2013 08:42PM by joan.