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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 12:38PM

Does anyone know anything about the missing verses in the NIV of the Bible? On facebook there is a lot of talk today about this. One guy says 40 things were taken out of the KJV so are omitted from the NIV.

What do Mormons use ( kind of ) for themselves?

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Posted by: jan ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 01:02PM

Mormons use the KJV, to validate the Elizabethan English that Joey translated

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 02:04PM

I was just reading about translation of the NIV. (Not that that makes me an expert, just a novice when it comes to knowing much about the translation process, although I'm very interested in it).

But I haven't heard of anything being "taken out" of the NIV. Who is it discussing this - Mormons? I have found that many Mormons do not have a lot of knowledge about the Bible - they only "study" it formally every four years (for a year) but even then it's not necessarily taught by knowledgeable people with anything approaching a scholarly background.

People may have talking points about a particular Bible translation or contents but may have no deeper understanding or knowledge of it.

What do they mean about 40 things taken out of the KJV?

One thing that struck me about the NIV was that its translation committee was comprised of scholars from a variety of denominations, including Brethren, Mennonite Brethren, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Anglican, "to prevent a sectarian bias". I approve of that approach!

The foreword in the NIV speaks of "revision" and "correction" that the translation committee has undertaken (from its previous translation a few years earlier). Again, I find this to be transparent and reassuring in that they are open about their process and its results and to hearing opinions from other scholars about decisions they themselves have made in the translation process in producing their NIV and its various updates.

In the NIV, there are also added chapter headings (in italics) as well as bracketed portions with explanation for passages that may remain not completely clear (as translation is not an exact science). In addition, there are footnotes explaining further information or uncertainty re translation of some terms.

Some people may wish to regard these inevitabilities of a scholarly and transparent translation approach as "additions" or "subtractions" to or from the text.

Perhaps that is where these people get their "40" subtractions from the KJV re the NIV? I'd start by ascertaining that first and then try to answer from there. They should give examples of what exactly they are considering to be a subtraction. The NIV, for instance, changes "God of Hosts" to "God Almighty", as its translation committee explains they were seeking more clarity for the modern reader. If you counted that alone, it could easily add up to hundreds of "changes".

For me, a "change" would consist of a substantive difference from the original in meaning or content. Those, in my admittedly non-scholarly existence, are *very* few and far between, if any at all. A translation committee would hardly make wholesale inaccurate changes when outsiders would easily spot and decry and denounce the result. Unless you're talking The WatchTower Society - JWs - and their "New World Translation", that is - but that's another story - one famous example being John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God." (NIV). The WTS translates John 1:1 in their unique NWT as "...and the Word was ***a*** God", adding the article "a" to allow for their doctrine of God the Father and God the Son being two separate beings, hence, no Trinity. The entire mass of non-JW biblical scholars has called them out on this "translation" because they did not follow accepted translation protocol in arriving at their decision to insert an "a" in that verse. Instead, they considered their own settled doctrine first and translated the scripture accordingly - instead of the other way around - it should be translation first, interpretation/doctrine next, arising from the correctly translated passage of scripture. Famously, Raymond Franz, grandson of the WTS's presiding leader at the time, left the organization over the flawed translation process. He wrote a book about his experience as a JW i which he revealed the blatant dishonesty in the WT's translation of their own version of the Bible. Upon that one scripture alone they hooked not only their own people onto their own dogma (i.e., no Trinity, Jesus was created, not eternal) but a vast number of converts as well. (Which shows that the approach taken to translation is crucial, although not many adherents to any particular belief system take an interest in it or are knowledgeable about it, taking it on faith, so to speak). This revelation in Franz's book shocked me, even as an ex-JW. It is this type of dishonesty from leaders that sears the soul of the faithful, or previously faithful, adherent. It is difficult for honest believers to accept, or even see, that their leaders can be outright dishonest, for nefarious reasons, such as to keep the "sheep" in line for the gain of the organization and/or its leaders.

What I have found, with Mormons also, is that claims like these (that there have been 40 changes, etc) are usually found to be spurious in that no clearly scholarly, honest, and transparent translation effort purposely leaves out portions or adds to the text. However, it is perhaps inevitable that revisions and corrections are necessary even after a momentous effort at translation. Depending on what these are (such as a more accurate word choice or noun/verb usage or choice of tense) people may have their disagreements with some choices made by any translator or translation committee.

What prompted this FB discussion of the NIV in particular, at this time, I wonder.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2013 02:10PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 09:05AM

My auestion is how the KJV stands up against the Greek. Is it 100% accurate or were some things "enhanced" in order for it to conform to the orthodoxy of the 17th century?

And were the KJV and NIV translated from the same source documents?

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 11:58AM

You raise two important questions. I'll take the them in reverse order.

1) Did they use the same source documents?

Definitely not. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus, which was the critical text that was produced in the 1500s. The Textus Receptus is based primarily on later manuscripts that had a number of innovations from the more ancient ones. The NIV uses much older and reliable manuscripts, some dating as early as the 2nd century. You can see my other post on this thread for some examples of where the KJV makes major departures from the accepted original text.

2) How do they stand up against the Greek?

So, the two definitely use different Greek texts, and so the King James is going to have some stuff that doesn't belong. That having been said, the KJV is actually a pretty good translation of the Textus Receptus. There are some errors in translation due to imperfect knowledge of Koine Greek, but these are rather minor and not really done to conform to orthodoxy. Moreover, the King James tend to be a very literal translation of the Greek, often sacrificing intelligibility to convey a precise translation of the Greek. The NIV, on the other hand, aims to be more of a dynamic translation that captures the essence of what is being said even if, at times, it departs from a literal translation.

Hope that helps!

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Posted by: Jools ( )
Date: August 30, 2013 06:36PM

Hey guys, I perceive that you are all of the most intelligent, by reading the NIV, and in this bible format, you can learn the Bible in the most excellent time.
It will take you 10 minutes to memorise all of these most excellent scriptures that define the Lordship of our Saviour, and thou shalt be the utmost, audacious Bible expert.

Matthew 17:21
Matthew 18:11
Matthew 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46 Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37 Acts 15:34
Acts 24:7
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24
1 John 5:7
How did you do? Wasn't that easy? Now memorize the following verses from the Authorized King James.
May the Lord enlighten the eyes of those who beleive, and therewith also darken the heart of the unbeleivers who are taken in mischief.
Most Excellent is our Gracious loving Father
who did shed his blood for us...........
ACTS 20:28

It is an Amazingly Benevolant Gracious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ to exact such a plan of Salvation, with His Blood.
May the Lord Jesus Christ be praised, world without end.
Jools

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Posted by: Jools ( )
Date: August 30, 2013 06:40PM

Hi folks,
I know too well, that brillian minds need a little bit of encouragement to attain to higher counsel.
this is a reminder to encourage you to perfection and pure memorisation of the following texts....

Matthew 17:21
Matthew 18:11
Matthew 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46 Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37 Acts 15:34
Acts 24:7
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24
1 John 5:7
How did you do? Wasn't that easy? Now memorize the following verses from the Authorized King James.
May the Lord enlighten the eyes of those who beleive, and therewith also darken the heart of the unbeleivers who are taken in mischief.
Most Excellent is our Gracious loving Father
who did shed his blood for us...........
ACTS 20:28

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Posted by: Jools ( )
Date: August 30, 2013 06:51PM

Hi Folks,
well meaning and ambivalent,
there are
way
too
many
memory verses
to
list
here
for
you.
But if you would quite refrain from the teachings of men, your
ambivalence will surely be requited with wisdom
and
Recovery from Mormonism will surely come to pass.
Refresh yourself away from the teachings of any man,
as that is where Mormonism and others have strayed,
Psalm 12:6 ( read it!)
Stand apart from the teachings of men.
oh, and learn a secret.
Arguing, distrusting the KJV and emotional outbursts indicate a lack of
wisdom,
and cause havok in the beleivers mind and heart.
(See any article on "Amygdala Hijack")
Please make yourself accountable to the Lord, not to man.
Ciao

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Posted by: snowowl ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 02:11PM

Can you post the link to Facebook or copy the list and paste on this thread? I don't actually do Facebook but would find the information interesting.

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Posted by: StoneInHat ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 02:19PM

This might give some insight, it's written by a Christian Pastor:

http://aarondailey.net/2008/07/12/niv-non-inspired-version/

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 02:36PM

I am sure the pastor here is well meaning, but he is completely ignorant of textual critical issues and why certain things don't appear in the NIV. Instead, he sees a conspiracy to weaken Jesus where people just willy-nilly deleted things that they didn't like. This is definitely not how modern Bible translations are made.

The first example that he gives his Luke 9:56, where the King James adds "You do not know of what Spirit you are. For the Son of Man is not come destroy men's lives . . .". All of the early manuscripts that we have from Luke omit this phrase. The original reading is rather abrupt, which is why people wanted to flesh things out a bit more. It turns out that there are two variants to this verse. The first is the King James one, the other leaves the ". . . do not know of what spirit" comment while not having the destruction phrase. All of the old manuscripts that we have from Luke simply abruptly with Jesus' rebuke. The versions that have the additional text start to appear much later in history.

I mentioned some nice books in my earlier post, but wanted to mention one other. Phillip Comfort's "New Testament Text and Translation Commentary" is excellent and runs through every single New Testament variant that we know of. It lists all of the manuscript evidence for each variant and discusses how scholars arrived at the current critical text. There are some murky passages still out there, but most are a slam dunk once all of the evidence is presented.

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 02:19PM

I would be interested in seeing specific examples of what this person feels are the issues but, in general, it is well known that the NIV represents a much cleaner text of the Bible than what is found in the King James. This comes down, primarily, to the translators of the NIV having far superior manuscripts of the Bible to work with than what the King James translators had.

I'll try to give some background and hopefully won't be too verbose. We obviously don't have the original writings of the Bible, but instead have to rely on various manuscripts of the OT and NT written in various places at various times. The earliest Bible manuscripts likely date to the second century. We have complete codices of the Bible starting around the 4th century.All of these are copies from earlier manuscripts, and when you have copies you start to accumulate errors in the text. Most of these errors are minor things like misspellings or skipping words/lines of text. There are handful of errors, however, that were quite deliberate. These errors are made by scribes who are trying to harmonize the text of the Bible. They might do things like change a passage in Matthew to better agree with Luke, scrub a passage that conflicted with Orthodoxy, or add verbiage to support a pet dogma. Oftentimes scribes would be faced with a situation where they had two Bible manuscripts for the same passage but where each had a different reading. In this case, scribes would often try to blend the two variants together.

As a result, by the time the 1500s roll around you have a very large number of Bible manuscripts that can potentially have numerous differences. In an attempt to remedy this, scholars started trying to produce critical editions -- texts of the Bible in the original languages that they felt best represented the original text. One of the most famous is a manuscript called the Textus Receptus ("Received Text") which was composed by a Dutch scholar named Deiderus Erasmus. Erasmus' text generally (though not always) makes the assumption that the best reading is the one that occurs most frequently across manuscripts. In general, however, this method tends to favor manuscripts produced later in history that also tend to be further removed from the earlier manuscripts.

The Textus Receptus is what the King James translators used. As such, there is a lot of accumulated junk in the KJV that is NOT part of what the original Bible manuscripts had. Here are some big examples:

The Story of the Woman Taken in Adultery (John 8): This entire story is not originally part of the Gospel of John. It is missing in all of the early manuscripts, uses vocabulary that is starkly different from the rest of John's Gospel, and actually breaks up a story that flows together beautifully otherwise. The NIV still includes this story, but notes that it is not found in the important ancient manuscripts.

The Doxology to the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 5): This the "for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory" part of the Lord's prayer. It is also absent in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts. Various versions of the Doxology start to creep into the manuscript tradition starting in the second century. The full blown version in the King James finally comes into existence around 400 AD.

The Longer Ending to Mark (Mark 16): Mark's gospel originally ended in verse 8, with the woman at the tomb being "very afraid". The ending was super abrupt, and nobody liked it, so folks started coming up with smoother endings as time went on. The full version with Jesus talking about handling snakes and so on is of much later date than the earliest copies of Mark that we have.

Interestingly enough for RFM readers, Joseph Smith never got any of these things right when making the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Additionally, the last two examples show up in the Book of Mormon, showing how the author of Book of Mormon is quite dependent on the King James version of the Bible when writing the Book of Mormon.

After the King James, scholars realized that the way that they were arriving at the most authentic text of the Bible was incorrect and began to develop better methods for coming through manuscripts and getting at the most original reading. There is an entire branch of scholarship called Biblical textual criticism that aims to answer these questions. Since the late 1800s we have a much better idea of how the original OT and NT look and modern translations of the Bible reflect this.

The NIV (also the NRSV, ESV, etc) is, without a doubt, a much more faithful representation of the what the original authors of the Bible said than what the King James gives us. Still, you have many groups like the LDS and certain strains of fundamentalist Christianity that have deified the King James and feel that any departure from the KJV is tantamount to heresy. In the case of the LDS, much of their doctrine is based on bogus King James verses, and so they really are trapped. By accepting modern scholarship they would throw their own doctrine under a bus.

If anyone is interested in learning more about this, there are some excellent books that are perfect for lay people. My favorite is "The Text of the New Testament" by Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman. Ehrman's "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" is also quite good, though a bit sensational at some points.

Let me know if you have any questions. I read Greek and love New Testament textual critical issues and love talking about this stuff.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 09:57AM

Ed (not logged in) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Doxology to the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 5):
> This the "for thine is the kingdom, the power, and
> the glory" part of the Lord's prayer. It is also
> absent in the earliest and most reliable
> manuscripts. Various versions of the Doxology
> start to creep into the manuscript tradition
> starting in the second century. The full blown
> version in the King James finally comes into
> existence around 400 AD.

This is of interest to Mormonism because the Doxology is
included in the Book-of-Mormon version of the Lord's Prayer.
In other words, the Book of Mormon follows something that was
added later to the New Testament manuscripts and was not in
the original. Further proof it is not what it claims to be.

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 12:01PM

There are a few others in the Sermon at the Temple that are definitely bad King James copies as well. It is almost comical watching the Book of Mormon author screw things up so badly.

Also, Mormon 7 copies several items copied from Mark 16, which is also a later addition to the New Testament.

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Posted by: Hervey Willets ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 11:07PM

nor in the 1630 "Director's Cut" edition. It was added in the 18th Century (1730?) although it had appeared in earlier translations (e.g. Geneva, Tyndale). But the KJV was a revision of the Bishops Bible, which was a revision of the Great Bible, ad infinitum.

You know what they say about the camel being a horse designed by a committee.

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: August 13, 2013 07:48AM

I don't much about the various KJV editions (other than the famous "thou shalt commit adultery" error). I checked around a bit, though, and I am seeing in this in the 1611 edition. I couldn't find anything on the other editions so couldn't check those.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Matthew-Chapter-6/

http://printkjv.ifbweb.com/

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Posted by: Hervey Willets ( )
Date: August 13, 2013 03:29PM

It is in Matthew, it is not in Luke. I think I was thinking of the Book of Common Prayer. Whether it was from an early source of scripture, or the Didache, or crept in sometime in the first century will cause academics to squabble forever.

I wouldn't trust wikipedia, but here are some links if you want to check the citations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Prayer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

Please not the Mormon point of view:

They believe that Jesus gave it as an inspired example for correct prayer and not as a set text to be repeated using "vain repetitions".[43]

The Book of Mormon[44] includes a version of the Lord's Prayer in an account of Jesus' sermon to a people in the Western Hemisphere shortly after his Resurrection. The English phraseology strongly resembles the text of Matthew in the Authorized King James Version of the New Testament.[45] It includes the doxological ending, generally considered by critical scholars to be a later interpolation to Matthew from The Didache of the Twelve Apostles.[46] The Book of Mormon account records that Jesus taught the entire Sermon on the Mount, with several slight differences to the version contained in Matthew.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: August 30, 2013 08:08PM

You may find codexsinaiticus.org of interest.
The Codex is one of the oldest copies of scripture.
The provide photos of the manuscript as well as a translation.

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Posted by: kativicky ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 05:24PM

Sounds like someone is trying to cause some trouble and push the KJV only agenda by causing doubt against the NIV version. I can't speak for the LDS but I know that many in the Fundamentalist Christianity community would consider it a sin and a heresy to read any English version of the Bible other than the KJV.

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Posted by: NeverBeenaMormon ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 09:02PM

I know New Testament Greek. The NIV is the better translation as it accpets both textual criticism and arguments based on the Greek used to take out certain verses. An example of each: the last 12 verses of Mark (16.9-20) are written in a Greek style that doesn't match the rest of the book. It is therefore an addition. Secondly the tale of the woman about to be stoned (John 7.53-8.11) is not found in any of the early manuscripts and so is also a later addition (this is actually true of the Mark example as well but the Greek changing seals the deal there).
All this is known because of better manuscript evidence and better knowledge of Greek than in the 17th century. Modern translations are therefore much better for understanding the text. I love the KJV and read it often, but in some places the translation is just plain wrong! Now if only God had revealed a correct translation to his American prophet that TSCC could use instead of the KJV....

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: August 10, 2013 09:59PM

Thank you all for your replies. The man who made this statement I do not know but I know a very devout Christian who like you said above will only accept KJV. I learned a lot by these responses and will take you up on that reading Ed. The person who was telling this did not give examples so that is why I asked here. Perhaps as their conversation went on he did. Thanks again. YOU all are so smart.

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: August 12, 2013 09:22PM

I have several issues with the NIV because it tends to over-simplify and has certain errors. However, leaving out some verses is not one of the errors. My preferred reading is the New American Bible which has superior footnotes as well as excellent explanations at the beginning of each book of the Bible. Though Catholic, it does not base the translation on Catholic doctrines but on as close as it can come to being a readible and accurate translation.

BTW, I find the translations in general to have erred , in a couple of passages, by translating the Greek as referring to "the evil one" instead of "evil" or "wickedness", and thereby leading people into the error that Satan is the god of this world.

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Posted by: ck ( )
Date: August 13, 2013 01:11AM

I second one of Ed's recommendations. I am currently reading Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" and am finding it fascinating and incredibly enlightening.

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