I've read the CES letter and found that it details most of the things I discovered on my own over the last several years. But I get the feeling that many people don't want to take the time to read that 80+ page document. Could Jeremy Runnells or some other scholar come up with a condensed version of this letter? I think it would help those with a shorter attention span. No offense intended to anyone. It's a long document and something more concise would be quite valuable when a doubting TBM is cruising around on this forum.

Executive summary: Mormonism is a fraud.

(I mean the mormon church lies, not the CES letter.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2020 02:37PM by Lowpriest.

Any suggestions on what you'd condense? I found it long, but the content was so interesting to me that I read through it in about 2 hours... which wasn't bad at all (for me at least). If I recall correctly, I think that maybe some of the BoM section could be pared down. But I'm the kind of person who likes to know all of the details.

BTW, I saw on red*it /r/exm*rmon that Jeremy was looking for someone experienced in web programming. I think that he's planning to make the CES letter more interactive where you can skim through a summary and then drill down into the details if you want. I'm not sure if this is exactly what he had in mind, or something different. Or what the schedule is or if it will ever be released. But the discussion did happen a few weeks ago.

Lots of banned words around here :(

Yeah, it reminds me fondly of the old days of the board wars, which we really don't want to revisit.

Can we get the forum to at least highlight or mark the banned word. It is so frustrating trying to find which one is the problem.

Phazer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can we get the forum to at least highlight or mark
> the banned word. It is so frustrating trying to
> find which one is the problem.

I know. I posted a link the other day that included "bl**d atonement" in it, and got the dreaded "banned word included." Couldn't figure out what in my text was banned. Finally noticed that it might be the word in my link...that fixed it.
Frustrating. And why is that banned, anyway?

If someone needs something more condensed than the CES letter then I think they are way beyond help.

Half the pages of the CES letter are pictures and diagrams. It's hardly 80 pages of real text. Some pages are ONLY illustrations!

Just show someone the table of contents and say "pick one topic". Then have them start there.

Seriously, how much more condensed do you want?

I don't want it condensed, but I've noticed several posts that mention people who balk at taking the time to read it. You're probably right about them being beyond help.

"Eeeeww," said the TBM, "reading is HARD. And learning new things makes my brain hurt."

Just plain thinking makes some peoples' brains hurt. Happiness for a TBM is living in the bubble of TSCC where the thinking has already been done.

For me, NOT thinking through everything is problematic. I have to analyze everything after finding out I'd been lied to all my life.

The length is just fine. If a person can't get through 80 pages then please keep paying tithing to the fraud. Do something for yourselves TBMs turned truth seekers. The search feature helps too if you want to skip around in a PDF.

Good point. Think of it this way:

3 hours a week minimum for the regular church meetings to retain your testimony.

2-3 hours total for the CES letter to tell you the truth and set you free.

Any questions?

I agree. There already isn't a whole lot of detail on each topic. Most would probably dismiss it as anti-mormon lies if you removed any of the detail and sources...most TBM's will dismiss it either way.

here's the TL:DR version

It's not true for reasons.

I'm afraid that if you condense it any further you'd lose the convincing power of the document. What makes the document so remarkable is how its able to summarize so many of the problems in such a short amount of space. If you summarize it any further, you lose the details which is what a TBM needs to be convinced, otherwise they just see a bullet point list of anti-Mormon claims. Although its 80 pages, its a really easy, fast read.

I think the CES letter hits a sweet spot of thoroughness and concision. I looks to me like there's no fat to trim from the document; it makes a point, provides compelling evidence, then moves on. But it goes to the trouble to make point after point, and provide that crucial evidence so that they're not mere assertions. Well constructed, powerful document it is.

The scriptures are LONG and boring. A whole lot longer than 80 pages. Not nearly as gripping as the CES letter either.

I don't understand why someone who would read the Book of Mormon eight times would be intimidated by an 80-page long document.

If you read the Book of Mormon multiple times, you don't need the CS letter to get out ;)

This is the whole point, that if you only list one or two, then the apologists will say that they can be explained by this or that.

Its as short as it can be and convey the facts. Also, each topic is addressed separartely in few couple of pages. Why dumb it down. Only the lazy (i.e. kids with cell phones) need anything shorter.

Condensed version:

We believe in Adam God, and used to be trinitarian.

We believe that men will be punished for Cain's sins by being born black.

We believe in changing the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

We believe in repentenace, but not for the church. The church never apologises.

We believe that a man must be called of God, but we make it up years after the event: do not ask about melchisedech priesthood restoration.

We change the organisation as it suits us. E.g. Paul said that only Jesus was high priest, but we have thousands of them. But we are changing that again.

We no longer believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God as far as it correctly translated. References to Jesus as "the father", to "white and delightsome", to "the great and abominable church", to "principle ancestors", etc. are subject to change. And don't ask us about the Book of Abraham.

We do not believe all that God revealed to Joseph and Brigham. We believe less and less every year.

We do not believe in the literal gathering of Israel. It's just a metaphor now.

We claim the privilege of legislating morality for others in Utah. Let them do what we do.

We believe in religious exemptions from laws, and in defying the state if needed - see polygamy.

We believe in Joe Smith being dishonest, untrue, promiscuous, greedy, immoral, and in doing harm to all men; indeed, we may say that he followed the admonition of W.C.Fields - Never Give a Sucker an Even Break.

RockinhatJosephcouldn'tkeepitinhispantsTarandfeathersDanitesSpittoonsintempleAngryMasonsGovernorBoggshashaditSendMenonMissionsandscrewtheirwives,well,marrywivessprituallyfirst,trytosellBOMinCanadaforafewbucksHavewineandgunsinCarthageJail,Shootatthe door,Istherenohelpoforhtewidow'sson?Byefornow.

There you go.

Too clever by half.

This totally screws up the thread display on my tablet. Please don't post long lines with no blanks

My sincerest apologies BOJ. Well, sort of . . . :)

There is the one that Zelph on The Shelf created for the Millennials. https://zelphontheshelf.com/the-millennials-brief-guide-to-the-ces-letter/


Just use the essays (13-15) as a guide on which subjects to share, follow up on. They do cover the biggest issues on Church History guide, i.e. Blacks and the Priesthood, Stone in the Hat, Polygamy, etc...

If trying to share with others, it does help to know the audience. Polygamy may not mean or bother a depressed or suicidal LGBTQ member. But to find out that LDS Corp produced "Proclamation on the Family" which goes entirely against D&C 132 and was only produced to match other churches teachings and creeds to add to the Amicus Brief against same-sex marriage when Hawaii was trying to legalize SS Marriage in 1995.

A member who has been through the temple may be surprised by how the "never changing" Godly rites changed over and over and over (Washing/Anointing, Penalties, Vengence oath, Adam/God doctorine taught at the veil [so my oaths and covenants were different than my ancestors and mine were different/stiffer than those taken now days])

Members who believe that faith and testimony is just a warm feeling may find it hard to believe all of the "supernatural" history and miracles and Spiritual Visitaions that are promised.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2020 11:06AM by dydimus.

My second attempt at a condensed version:


"The Lord works in mysterious ways."

Yeah, a One Page INSERTION in ALL LDS publications and materials, and before ALL talks, baptisms, missionary unfair-whales, primary activities, etc.