Ok, so the story is god tells Nephi to decapitate some random jewish dude "because plates." The plates are so super-duper important that it justifies murder. The plates are passed along through the generations, and eventually a small portion of the history is recorded on other plates to be translated by Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith doesn't even bring the plates with him when he does the bulk of the translation work --- using a stone and a hat. God instead beams the information directly into his brain and it is transcribed. Later, when Joseph is asked to translate other ancient documents, he gets it completely wrong, but that's ok because (as the apologist explains) the documents were being used as a medium to gather inspiration, not being translated literally.

Finally, Joseph makes some adjustments to the new testament because the original translators got stuff wrong. Again, the information does not require Joseph to do any actual translating; the info he needs is beamed into his mind by the holy spirit.

So, we've established that a prophet, seer, and revelator does not actually need the original document in order to translate it or correct it. A much, much more efficient and effective method already exists - beaming the information directly into the prophet's head. Presumably, if god can do it once, he can do it an infinite number of times without breaking a sweat, so there is never any risk of corruption of the important information.

So, we go back to the beginning again. Why did Nephi need to commit cold-blooded murder to get these plates, when there were not one, but two prophets of the Lard on the journey? All Nephi *really* needed to do was get some parchment made, or if he is really crazy about plate records get some plates made, and get the info beamed into his brain. There is bound to be enough downtime between the two prophets to get it written down while they travel. By the time their civilization is gaining momentum, Lehi is dead, and Nephi is dying, the plates will probably have been reproduced. Furthermore, even if Nephi can't finish the job, there were other prophets contemporary to him to continue the job.

Hell, if he did it this way, we would have an explanation for how the Nephites obtained prophetic record that should not have been available to Lehi before he left. Also, Nephi wouldn't have had such a guilt complex going into 2 Nephi (there is a part in 2 Nephi where he laments how screwed up he is / sinner / blah blah blah, that always sounded to me like he was still shouldering the guilt for murdering Laban, which is literally the only thing Nephi ever does in the narrative that approaches "wrong" in the least degree--- the rest of the time he is way too "perfect").

I noticed this conundrum the first time I tried to read the Book of Mormon after I left the church. I didn't go any further into the book than 1 Nephi because the absurdities piled up faster than I could keep track. I was left wondering how I had ever, in any version of reality, thought that this book could have been legit in the first place.

While you are correct about the lack of use of plates by Joseph, keep in mind he translated the "golden plates". Nephi decapitated Laban for the "brass plates", without which he wouldn't have been able to use Isaiah as filler.

According to soju's theory, Nephi did not need the brass plates anymore than Joseph Smith needed the gold ones. God could have simply "beamed" the Isaiah filler directly into Nephi's brain.

Exactly this. I know the plates were different, but if Joseph can use magic to get the information from the gold plates, Nephi and/or Lehi should be able to do the same with the brass plates.

Since the plates weren't there, god wasn't giving Joseph the power to translate ancient languages, he was giving Joseph the power to directly access the contents of documents that were not physically in his possession *and* which were written in an ancient language.

With *that* prophetic superpower, the physical possession of *any* document becomes irrelevant. Joseph also wouldn't have needed to jump through any hoops to be told the location of the plates --- he could just have had the information magic'd into his hat.

Duh, you people are idiots!

He obviously couldn't do the rock-hat-mind-beam with the brass plates, that only works for golden plates! It's a bit like taking a beta-max, and trying to shove a copy of moby dick in there!

First off, it probably wouldn't fit, and if it did, the picture would be all grainy, and you probably couldn't make out any of the actors (Remember trying to watch Cinimax at your friends house where the signal was scrambled, and so every now and then you could make out a color-negative boob).

Secondly, golden plate rock-hat-mind-beam hadn't been invented yet, it was the bronze age for hell's sake! Maybe it was the steel age, I don't know, but it sure as hell wasn't the rock-hat-mind-beam age!

And lastly, if you started a novel out with some guy getting drunk, and some other guy just taking off his clothes.. well..

Apologies, I must have skipped a paragraph on my tiny cellphone screen.

There's also the question of why a decapitation was needed for the plates, but god was willing to poof the liahona outside Lehi's tent in the night.

I hadn't thought of the liahona... Wasn't that thing supposed to show writing on it that could change? If so... Pow, they even had the magic means needed to receive the scriptures. Better than a rock and a hat!

Spaulding was still working on the Manuscript when it was stolen. He had all kinds of ideas about how things were gonna play out.

I would give him a C- in story telling.....

My questions are: Did they belong to Lehi? Did they belong to Laban? Did Laban steal them Lehi? Did he win them in a card game or in repayment for debt from Lehi? Was Laban's treasury actually a Rent-a-Space that Lehi kept them in? Why would an angel say he would help Nephi get the plates, when the plan included drunkenness and murder, and deception? If Lehi was an important man, why did he not have his own plates, or keep his own plates in his own house instead Laban's treasury? If they were so important, why did God forget and not make sure he provided a way to get them to Lehi when they fled Jerusalem? If they were actually Laban's property, were they stolen on God's command? Who was Laban? Was he a religious authority? If he wasn't, why would he have such an important Jewish record? How many sets of these plates were made? Who else had them? Why didn't Lehi know his own history from oral tradition? Why were the plates so important if they were incorrect regarding things that we know are Creation myths like Adam & Eve?

I forgot perhaps the most important question I have about the Brass Plates: If they were so damn important that someone was murdered by a commandment from God to get them to the "right people", why were they not protected in an "ark of the plates" and venerated by the Nephites so they could handed down through the generations, instead of disappearing completely (and being sidestepped by apologists when asked that same question)??

Sorry, the third cup of coffee is REALLY kicking in, and I'm sinning and full of contention!

See my analysis of the Brass Plates story at http://packham.n4m.org/brassplates.htm

Not to sound like an apologist, but the brass ates weren't about what Latter-day Saints would need, they were about what the Lehites would need.

But it's still all a pile of baloney.

Holy shit! I just realized where I went wrong!

Nephi didn't have access to a hat. And never thought to pick up a rock.

So obviously he HAD to murder someone.

Best Explanation yet!

The response I received on this one was that God obviously knew that Laban wouldn't turnaround, remember, his Heavenly Father knew from the beggining of the world all of us perfectly. Oh, and that's not predestination, BTW.

Wasn't the Book of Isaiah written hundreds of years after Nephi supposedly left Jerusalem?

No Lehi and Nephi needed the physical brass plates to prove that they weren't phony prophets. Uh, wait. Hmmm.

The whole point of mormonism is obedience for its own sake. Everything is an exercise. Gawd could restore everything at anytime but he deliberately makes you show-you-want-it by jumping through hoops. Nephi had to slay Laban to prove his obedience. Apparently gawd rigged the plates as an excuse. There are any number of alternative nonviolent means to have acquired the plates or their information, but gawd WANTED nephi to kill laban so he set it up. That was the sacrifice nephi had to make to get the plates from gawd.
The hint for me is that Laban is just too gratuitous a bad guy. The development of his character is such a transparent setup. Hes all bad...a whoremonger, a thief, a murderer, a drunk...ripe for destruction and the lard is just saving him for a spectacular demise. Heart attack? Naw. Killed by rival badguy? Naw. Die of syphilis? Naw. War? Naw. Natural disaster? Naw...gawd has something speshul planned...beheaded by nephi (and as it turns out labans sword was more used than the plates).
THAT made me go hmmm even as a TBM. Sure they couldnt replicate the plates from memory but they needed a prototype SWORD to make more? And from this rose armaments rivaling the romans?

Good point, amos2--Abraham was following God's command to kill his OWN SON, but an angel showed up in the nick of time and congratulated him on his obedience. No such deus ex machine for Nephi, though, no angel showing up and saying: "Dude, put down the sword! This guy is TOTALLY wasted and won't wake up, so grab his clothes and do the ol' switcheroo thingy!"

Of course, OTOH, God commanded lots of killing in the OT, and Lehi & Nephi were soooo happy that they followed God, so it's a great lesson for kids: (scroll all the way down)

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=7c787befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e36d5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Well what happened was that the Angel was on his way but there was this great big 40+ donkey pileup on the Assyrian Expressway and between the Donkey wreckers, ambulances and the Assyrian Highway Patrol it was just this big huge mess and well, The Angel just didn't show up in time.

Lets look at what this "spirit" says to Nephi for a moment. "its better for one man to perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief." The Nephites or Lehites or Lamanites didn't exist yet. So we have to assume that the spirit dude in Nephi's head is talking about the Israelites. The Israelites already had a bunch of scrolls that eventually made their way into a good portion of the Old Testamant. Then they all went to Babylon for a few years, made up more stories, and came back to Jerusalem with what we now call the Old Testament.

So, yeah, the plates were worthless. Especially because they didn't exist in the first place.

But didn't the eventual nation set up by Lehi and his family essentially dwindle in unbelief, even with the plates? Wasn't that why Joe's eventual role was necessary, to show those remnants of what was left of the unbelieving Lamanites about God and their inglorious heritage?

So yeah, it seems that the brass plates were worthless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 06:37PM by Devoted Exmo.

Yeah, isn't that funny, both the Israelite and nephite nations perished anyway, even though both nations had books.

Ah, it was all a test. Nephi was told to kill Laban, but that was just to get him to start thinking about how to do it. See, he was supposed to pick up a rock, so he can wack Laban in in head like David did to Goliath.

As soon as Nephi showed his obedience by picking up the rock, God would have stepped in and said 'that'senuf, Nephi. I see you are obedient. Now that you have a rock in your hand, i'll show you this really neat trick. But you'll also have to get a hat. Then you stick your rock in the hat and i'll give you the brass plates by revelation.

problem was, was that Nephi saw that sword of Laban and never thot of getting a stone. By the time God noticed what was up, Nephi had already hacked half the guy's head off. No point in telling him to stop, now. Might as well let him steal the plates. After murder, what's a little robbery, in the grand scheme of things, anyway?

And don't forget a little kidnapping! Poor Zoram!

I think things turned out pretty well for Zoram. He went from being Laban's slave to Nephi's Lackey (next to Sam) ended up with a wife, perhaps even wives, and got a group of descendants named after him.
If he had stayed behind he may have taken the fall for letting the plates get stolen.

... I wonder what people thought though... Plates missing, the servant with the key missing, Laban dead in the street. "Hey has anyone seen Zoram lately?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2013 03:45AM by nonsequiter.

You realize Laban's only crime was that he didn't want to give his family bible away to a bunch of crazy hippies who were telling him the world was going to end.

And drinking before the word of wisdom was written 2000 years later.

And dont forget Laman and Lemuel. Their only crimes were not listening to their Dad, not wanting to participate in a theft, and not wanting to leave home. But somehow, Gawd decided to curse them and their prodigy with a black skin.

It was just a test of Nephi's obedience. You know, like our favorite sister mishie, Kylee, reminds us, God needs to know if we're a head chopper-offer or merely a second-rate throat slitter.

Norma Rae, that was good!

Nephi: there were several felony's …. breaking and entering, grand theft, impersonating an officer, murder and kidnaping!
sound like a holy man?