Has anyone come up against this? My TBM wife wanted to know where I was with my beliefs on the church. Besides showing her the contradictions in the LDS scriptures, talks etc. Anything that I couldn't prove on LDS.com or through any existing modern church sanctioned literature, such as journal entries, newspaper clippings from Joseph Smith's time etc. I shouldn't believe unless I get the actual hard copy first to verify that it's authentic. Her point is that anyone could have made that up to discredit JS and the church and spread it on the internet. Satan is very clever and will create such writings to lead people like me astray. I'm supposed to start with the BOM, her great grandma has an original copy, next time we're there I'm supposed to go through it and show her where the changes are compared to the modern version. I told her that was a waste of time because people have already done that and posted the photo copies online. Oh but that's not good enough, again, someone probably went through and created the 4000+ changes to try to discredit the BOM. Bottom line is she won't believe unless she has proof. I said well doesn't that go against what the church teaches? They teach you that we don't need proof that the gold plates existed, just have faith. Discussion ended right there.

I think having her examine an original copy of the BofM is a fantastic idea. A lot of us here would love to have that chance.

When she reads what's actually there, (including the bad grammar, archaic language, and spelling mistakes), she will no longer be able to argue that "someone made it up." Doing research with original sources cuts off all those "anti-Mormon lit" defenses right at the head.

If you two live anywhere in the Morridor, your local public library will be full of juicy sources for her examination. Within ten miles of my home, I can lay my hands on early print editions of "The Church and the Negro," BY's Journal of Discourses, "Jesus the Christ," "Mormon Doctrine," "The Miracle of Forgiveness," and many other classics -- all free at Utah's public libraries.

BYU has an enormous collection of church documents available for perusal as well. Some are on microfilm, but since those are images of the originals and it's BYU, she'll probably be OK with those.

If there's a DI store in your area, check there, too. Sometimes copies of vintage books, scriptures, and church mags slip by the gatekeepers and end up on the sales floor. Pioneer Books is Orem has a lot of old church books for sale as well.

There's nothing like seeing all the damning evidence right there in the original documents, especially documents that have been printed and distributed by TSCC itself. You are going to have so much fun with this!

Good idea! No, don't live in morridor anymore... Next time I'm there I'll have to make a couple extra days for some research. I do know where I can get my hands on an original copy of JOD, that will be good too. It is so ironic though that I have to prove all of my sources and can't just believe what people say, but JS got away with that!

Optical scans of the entire JoD series:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/search/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3

Journal of Discourses - yes! The stuff that comes out of Brigham's mouth is vile.

Maybe what you can try is cite an example of an "anti-Mormon" claim, ask her if she believes the claim is true or an "anti-Mormon" lie. If she says its a lie, then go ahead and prove it to her through an LDS source proving her wrong. Then say, this "anti-Mormon" claim ended up being true, you can't simply assume the rest are lies too.

Do this with several "anti-Mormon" claims and maybe it will finally sink in that the anti's aren't actually lying.

The differing (and contradictory) First Vision accounts would be perfect for this since the church finally admitted they exist and posted them on their website.

The fact is most of these sources have been verified through current pro-LDS sources that you can verify for her. You just have to do a little digging to do so. The only thing different is that the "anti-Mormon" books and websites just bring all these critical parts together, less the spin.

Good idea. It works the opposite direction too.

Fasting and praying about it is OK for accepting church claims? Gee, I wonder why.

Exmos don't tell you to fast and pray. They tell you to go do research yourself.

Funny how the "anti-Mormon" claims are immediately questioned by Mormons, yet they don't think to dig deep and research the pro-Mormon claims they accept every day without question.

I was also very suspicious of deceptive sources and lies. So I got everything for my research at Deseret Book, written by people like Hugh Nibley, and other known defenders of the faith. If you do a bit of sifting through the bias, there's plenty of reliable dirt there, and copies of original sources.

You may even consider the old History of the Church in 7 volumes (I think). I got my complete set at DI for $12. Volume 5 discusses polygamy. Read the intro thoroughly, even though it's super long. It tells how the "revelation" about polygamy comes to be written down, and it makes JS look like a kid who's been caught with his pants down, and desperately tries to make up a lie to cover his tracks.

Members of the Mormon church believe in fabricated golden plates, a whole nonexistent civilization, magical underwear, ghosts, and spirit people in the sky. They believe this weird stuff without evidence, only because they do what they're told and the fairy tales make them feel good.

Yet, these same people want ironclad proof that their strange beliefs are strange.

+100

This could actually work to your advantage. Research and find the actual proof - it will be a huge wake up call for her.

bvd,

Here is some of the legwork done for you. It will still be up to you to do some searching and showing, but there is enough information here that you should be able to do it without too much of a problem.

lds.org discusses 1000 changes from the 1830 to 1837 printing (click on "Additional Information). This at least shows that the church acknowledges that changes were made. They spin the reasons why, of course. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=b10cd75ccbae7110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Here is the official website from the LDS church (go to the bottom of the page to verify that it is indeed copyrighted to the LDS Church) with the entire 1830 edition online: http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/book-of-mormon-1830?p=7

The following webpages list changes - it will be up to you to find these changes in the original 1830 BOM and compare it to an open copy of printed scriptures. If I were you, I would find only the most significant/damaging passages, since the bulk of the changes are insignificant. You will notice that a lot of these sites tend to duplicate, so after the first couple, you can probably scan through the others more quickly.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm (has a lot of background info for the first third of the page, then gets into changes in the remainder)

http://mit.irr.org/changes-latter-day-scripture

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/5000-changes-to-the-book-of-mormon.html

http://richkelsey.org/book_of_mormon_changes__the_fal.htm

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/did-joseph-smiths-doctrine-of-god-change/

http://www.mazeministry.com/machine/index.htm (use the links of the two inside columns to find significant changes highlighted in red)

http://signaturebooks.com/2013/06/excerpts-significant-textual-changes-in-the-book-of-mormon/

http://www.bible.ca/mor-1830-changes.htm

May be of interest - SLTrib article: "Church removes racial references in Book of Mormon headings" http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50882900-76/mormon-book-church-lamanites.html.csp


Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 11:39AM by Satan Claus.

Thanks Satan! (never thought I'd ever say that) I've got my work cut out for me, but I think it will be fun and well worth it!

Tell her you also need to handle the golden plates for yourself

+100!

Is the original BoM her great grandma has really an original copy? Because that's actually pretty cool.

They sell replicas at certain church bookstores.

http://deseretbook.com/Book-Mormon-Replica-1830-Edition-Herald-House/i/2609476

I bought one a couple of weeks after getting home from my mission and it was one of the things that helped lead me out. They have a rather beat up original copy of the BoM in the MTC under glass. When I saw that I really wanted to compare it word-for-word to see if there really were over 4,000 changes. I figured TSCC wouldn't want people doing that so they kept any original copies under wraps.

Boy was I surprised that they sell replicas. I then figured that they would have made changes to the replicas, but nope! It really is an exact copy. (it even has some of the printing errors like misaligned pages and words that didn't print completely because of globby ink)

I'm not sure, the word in the family is that it was passed down from her grandparents. She's 91 so it's possible it's not a copy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 07:04PM by bvd.

Thanks for the link. It's in my shopping cart.

With my wife truth and facts are second or third tier issues. Her emotional attachment to the church overrides everything else. As long as that emotional "testimony" is in place she doesn't really care about facts or sources.

"That's an ant-mormon lie!" really means "I'm uncomfortable with anything that isn't correlated". Every time I try to pursue an issue beyond that initial defense of the faith, I get shot down with "We'll just have to agree to disagree".

+1, for wife and mother-in-law

You're are in a tough spot. I really hope some of the above excellent suggestions work for you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. She has the ultimate trump card: No matter what you throw out there, she labels it the work of the devil and says, "next?"

My father was like that. Well, the whole family is like that. He was not interested in facts, documentation, or research. Anything that contradicted his precious Mormon doctrine was of the devil. Period. End of discussion.

What they are really doing is admitting that Satan is more powerful, more clever, and better at getting things done than Mormon God.

I left the cult on a gut feeling--knowing no "anti" stuff at all. It was so exciting some thirty five years later when I came across No Man Knows My History and read Joseph's biography with actual footnotes full of historical facts, court records, letters, journal entries, newspaper clippings, whatever. They all exist somewhere. But at the end of the day, my own family would say they are half-truths being used by the devil. You can't win sometimes.

It's not a bad idea, I felt a need to look up a few things myself before I left mormonism. So if you can procure better evidence, more original sources e.t.c., then more power to you. It's not like you are going to regret becoming even more certain that mormonism is false.

It's just that it is really your wife that should present some proof that the ridiculous claims of mormonism is true. The burden of proof is upon HER to present evidence of pre-columbian horse domestication in america, to explain how a hill can teleport from south america to new york (cumorah), and get genetic evidence that american natives really are jews. And she is asking for original source documents. Well unless she can produce the golden plates, which she can't, you have he very same argument against her when it comes to the BoM!

"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior ... " (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, page 32)

In the 1964 edition it reads as follows:

"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior ..." (Book of Mormon, 1964 edition, 1 Nephi 13:40)

Another important change was made in 1 Nephi 11:18; this is page 25 of the 1830 edition. In the 1830 edition it read: "... Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh." In modern editions it has been changed to read, "... Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." The words, the Son of, were inserted in the middle of the sentence. Verse 21 of the same chapter originally read: "And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!" It was changed to read: "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!" Verse 32 of the same chapter, which is on page 26 of the original edition, was also changed. In the 1830 edition it reads: "... the Everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." It was changed to read: "... the Son of the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." Joseph Smith apparently made these changes to support his doctrine of a plurality of Gods.

In Mosiah 21:28 the name of the king has been changed from Benjamin to Mosiah. In the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon we read as follows:

"... king Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings ..." (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, page 200)

In modern editions of the Book of Mormon this verse has been changed to read:

"... king Mosiah had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings ..." (Book of Mormon, 1964 edition, Mosiah 21:28)

""... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior ... " (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, page 32)

In the 1964 edition it reads as follows:

"... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior ..." (Book of Mormon, 1964 edition, 1 Nephi 13:40)

Another important change was made in 1 Nephi 11:18; this is page 25 of the 1830 edition. In the 1830 edition it read: "... Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh." In modern editions it has been changed to read, "... Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." The words, the Son of, were inserted in the middle of the sentence.

Verse 21 of the same chapter originally read: "And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!" It was changed to read: "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!"

Verse 32 of the same chapter, which is on page 26 of the original edition, was also changed. In the 1830 edition it reads: "... the Everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." It was changed to read: "... the Son of the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record."

Joseph Smith apparently made these changes to support his doctrine of a plurality of Gods."

Exactly, these changes were necessary because the BOM originally taught one God, a trinity.

I don't have proof that the "golden plates" did NOT exist, true. I just have proof published by the Mormon church itself over time of all the nasty untruths, lies, obfuscations, and contradictions. I have never used anything but LDS-published information to prove that the church is dishonest and fraudulent.

As I have said many times you "CANNOT DEAL RATIONALLY WITH AN IRRATIONAL PERSON"
not MAY NOT but CAN NOT

I have wondered if there would be anything to wake up an irrational person, but my feeling is, in most cases the answer is no. The willingness to wake up must come from the person her/himself. And in most cases that willingness is buried very deep because it in many cases forms the basis of the identity of the person. The idea of wiping all that away is too scary for many such people to even consider.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 09:08PM by Facing Tao.

"but my feeling is, in most cases the answer is no."

I agree. I haven't seen much evidence of it in my life. I have seen someone wake up - or so it seems. But I've never been a participant. To me, it seems like I've never said anything to anyone that had a significant impact. Whether I was whispering or screaming at the top of my lungs. So, I'm mostly trying to navigate through the insanity, including my own, without being pulled under too often or too far.

Am on holidays. Have plenty for you next week. (Bump this)