For example - Elder Robert Bobby, 18, serves a mission and bears his testimony of what a swell guy Joseph Smith is. It's what he's always been taught and it's been confirmed by "feeling good." Is he lying or just brainwashed?

How about Bishop Jackwagon, 51, bearing the same testimony after a lot of life experience and opportunity to research his beliefs? Is he lying because he's not a deluded kid and should have learned by now?

Now say BJ instead, is visited by an adorable sister in the ward who annihilates his religious knowledge with well-researched questions and proof Joseph Smith is a liar. If he now doesn't research but continues to dig in on his position, is he lying or believing?

What if BJ is terrified at the articulate, well-researched arguments of his little apostate, and tells the whole ward she was offended and is refusing to allow her kids to participate at church. This is a flat-out lie by most standards but he's "protecting his flock." Lying? Or has he convinced himself that must be true because the only reason anyone ever leaves is because they are offended and it's sooo convenient to believe it.

And what about all the people in the ward who spread rumors about why someone left without even bothering to find out if it's true. Are they lying? Is "well, that's what I heard" a justified argument that it isn't, technically, a lie even though they are bearing false witness against their neighbor? Is it more of a lie if the person spreading the lie is nasty to an innocent individual whilst spreading untruths? What if they heard the lie straight from Bishop Jackwagon, who knows he's lying but they don't know he's lying and trust him as a "religious leader?"

Just wondering where everyone draws the line on Mormons taking responsibility for the lies they spread about apostates and non-LDS. I tend to be harsh, with my journalism background, because I d@mn well better be able to back up anything I print or it's my butt that will be in the witness chair, defending against possible lawsuits. I think you spread a harmful rumor about someone - something you wouldn't want spread about you - without being ABSOLUTELY sure it's true, you are a liar. What do you guys think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2014 08:36PM by CA girl.

Sadly, it took me the better part of a lifetime to understand the Mormon definition of truth. Anything useful is true. Useful for what? Useful for maintaining the status quo.

Mormon men have grown up with a strong sense of entitlement. They are entitled to priesthood power and dominance over women and children. They will lie all day long to preserve their status. The lies are all truthful, because they are doing what's best for all. Mere women and children can't look out for their own best interests, but priesthood men know. It's funny how the Holy Ghost will readily agree with any Mormon man's plans.

If any true fact is not useful, it needn't be known. If it's hurtful, it is moved into the lie category. The polarity of truth and untruth is reversed for Mormons. That's one reason I can't talk to them. Their circuits are backwards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2014 09:03PM by donbagley.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The polarity of truth and untruth is
> reversed for Mormons. That's one reason I can't
> talk to them. Their circuits are backwards.

I never really thought about it that way but you are right. It's true if it makes them feel good, preserves their status and keeps them special. Real truth that makes them feel bad or ordinary is evil to them. One thing I've wanted to say when someone cries "anti-Mormon lies" is "it doesn't matter if it's anti-Mormon or pro-Mormon. It only matters if it's TRUE." But I can see now, after your explanation, that it won't work because to them, pro-Mormon IS true whether it's technically true or not.

That after I wrote this I got on FB and one of my most Mormon friends posted this: "This scripture stood out to me tonight cause it is happening now! 2 Nephi 15:20 "Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That after I wrote this I got on FB and one of my
> most Mormon friends posted this: "This scripture
> stood out to me tonight cause it is happening now!
> 2 Nephi 15:20 "Wo unto them that call evil good,
> and good evil, that put darkness for light, and
> light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and
> sweet for bitter."

What a coincidence. Look what I found. lol

Isaiah 5:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I think you nailed it, CA Girl.

A. She left because she found out facts that the church is false. Then this means that I have been preaching a false church (this doesn't feel good.)

B. She left because she was not happy in the church and found another religion that makes her happy. But how could the one true church not make someone happy (this doesn't feel good).

C. She left because someone in the church offended her and it can be attributed to just a few bad apples. This means the church is still true and it's her fault for being offended. Its still true!!!! (those doubtful feelings are gone, no more cognitive dissonance).

BJ has to lie to himself first in order to lie to someone else.

Justified!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp39qSdyTc4

One of the most difficult things to offset is malicious gossip.
No matter how strong the offsetting proof is the words, once spoken, can never be recalled.

Even when legal action is taken and truth is forthcoming the damage is often done and not reversable.

Many times answering the lies only re-inforces them in the minds of those who want to believe them.

In a cult society truth will very often take the back seat to convient gossip.

So long as the cult envitonment exists malicious gossip will never end.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No matter how strong the offsetting proof is the
> words, once spoken, can never be recalled.

This is one reason I think that the original person, who knows they are telling a lie, is a liar BUT the person who repeats the lie without checking on it is a liar as well. If I heard something damaging about a person, I'd probably not repeat it because it's just a nasty habit but also, if I don't know for sure it's the truth, then I gamble on becoming a liar.

Funny because with what Mormons teach about lying being such a sin - yet they don't even worry about accidentally sinning. They'd freak if they accidentally drank something with alcohol but if they accidentally lie, a much worse sin by their own doctrine, they shrug it off with "well, that's what I HEARD."

I'll tell you what else:

It's a d@mned LIE to say, "I KNOW Joseph Smith was a prophet, blah, blah, blah," because outside of CULTS, that is not the meaning of "to know" and nobody gets to make up new meanings to commonly understood words. Doing so any way just weirds other people out. Ask anyone who's not in a cult.

For any Mormon lurkers, I'm sorry, but that's really how it is, folks. Giving that "testimony" is straight up LYING. Deal with it. That's what should be on your mind should someone ever ask you if you are "honest in all your dealings." Welcome to integrity, eh?

When I hear someone say "I KNOW the church is true" I want to reply "No, you know it makes you feel good to believe it's true and that's very different."

And maybe that's the bottom line with Mormons. Feeling good about believing something is true is, to them, the same as it being true. Another reason why using feelings to determine truth is so damaging.

I think it's mostly brainwashing. It's easy for us as exmos to see that they are brainwashed, but when you are in it, you are just mostly repeating what you've been taught. There are some evil members that know exactly what they're doing, but I think the majority have no clue.

The redefinition of the word "know" by Mormon culture was one of those things that got my wheels turning and helped me realize something was really wrong. JRH's talk in GC where the kid tells him, I believe but I don't know yet, drove me up the wall, even as I fought hard to believe. Believing really hard does not equal knowing.

The most succint yet all encompassing way to put it is this:

Mormons lie.

Testimonies are used for Scams! I lost this weight on ultrapill look at my body in only 10 day's. Seriously question any item that is being sold with testimonies. If it was true there would be no need for it.

I got pissed going to so called BBQ at some long lost family members. Sure know how screw up BBQ. No beer, no drinks, no meat, no poker this sucks. They wanted to try teach little kiddies about faith lol! Just believe about BOM and have faith. For get that, brainwashed souls. But yeah Testimonies only used SCAMS. Yeah sure maybe your long lost friend who you can seriously trust say's trust me this is great ice cream (Ben and Jerry's) go ahead and believe.

I'm guessing no cigars either, huh? Stupid Mormons...

A "testimony" in a court of (secular) law is by definition and prerequisite all "the truth and nothing but the truth". In my opinion religion has co-opted the word "testimony" so that when they "bear" one, the seculars are supposed to take it as a fact. It's really for all intents and purposes a "testimonial" for a product like in the ad for the above-mentioned Ultrapill! Believers cannot fathom for one nanosecond how and why a listener wouldn't take a "testimony" as fact...you can't change their minds because the more they testify the same thing over and over in court, the harder it is to deny the product. And the more reason to want others to use that product. Well played on TSCC's part, eh?

And I may add the said "testimony" is the lie perpuated with impunity.

They're all lies. They just start small. Mormon teens are taught by the Church to say that they "know" the Church is true. They know no such thing, but they don't have any reason to think otherwise in most cases. I knew full well that I didn't "know" the Church is true. I knew what that word meant, and it didn't apply to my faith in Mormonism. I lied, and I knew it. Later, as the contrary evidence mounts, the lie becomes bigger and bigger while the investment of time and money also grows. By the time Mormons reaches their 50s, it's a huge lie with a lifetime of comfort in telling it. BTW, doesn't this seem like the exact intent of "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

Exactly - Mormonism is like liars training camp, starting with the little things and making your whole life a big lie in the end. Making your life one big "false witness." What they say about people who are different than them also is just bearing false witness against their neighbor: people only leave the church because they are offended, angry or want to sin - people who aren't Mormons aren't REALLY happy, they just think they are happy - certain families (mom/dad/kids) are better than others (single parents/singles).

And these are the same people who learn things like "Satan is the father of lies" and "wo unto the liar for they will be thrust down to hell." I really think what some people said, that Mormons believe truth makes you feel good and if it feels good, it must be true is their definition of truth. If I were Satan and I KNEW God considered lying a big sin, I'd find a way to mess with the definition of truth and get people to lie. It's so much easier to get people to lie than to get people to steal or murder or commit adultery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2014 12:27PM by CA girl.