I was pretty upset yesterday so I wandered over to some Mormon message boards to call them on some of their bull. Naturally, I wasn't too successful.

I know it is hard to persuade Mormons to view their religion in a sensible manner, but what I wondered was, has anyone had any luck ever?

I mean people leave the church somehow, right? I don't know how most people do it though, because my brain did it for me by developing a trauma disorder and dissociating my Mormon tendencies. But that's probably not the route most people go.

Depends on how you define success.

If you mean have I ever had one say "Oh my, you're RIGHT!" then no, never.

But if you mean forcing them to say something like "Well, I know the church is true," "But the church does so many good things," or "We will understand these things in the next life," then yes, several times.

Sure, again it depends on what you consider success, but "left4good" gives a good definition. I have won many arguments,leaving the faithful to bear their testimony,or appeal to the old "we will have to put that on a shelf for now".

The best victory I ever had was with a man who is a very good friend of mine. A typical Jack Mormon who can argue Mormonism with the best of them between drags on his cigarette. We went to Iraq together with the Army, he was amazed that muslims actually believed that Mohammed ascended to the heavens on a winged horse. I replied "Well, you believe in Golden Plates so what is the difference?". I could literally see the color drain from his face as he pondered that...

When hardcore TBM's believe that Satan will do ANYTHING in his power to thwart the work then no, there is no way you can win any argument. No matter how valid or obvious the point, dumb ass Mormons have a built in excuse to ignore the obvious truth...

Sometimes TBMs own up to some minor aspects of Mormon nonsense. But the fall back position for TBMs, when confronted over the LDS Church's problems, is to just end the conversation with a declaration, "I know the church is true." In my opinion, bearing a testimony is the same thing as closing your eyes, covering your ears, and yelling "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!" at the top of your lungs. You can't debate someone who believes a "burning in the bosom" is evidence of truth.

You'll rarely win an argument with a mormon if you assume the burden of proof in proving the church is a fraud.

You'll win every argument with a mormon if you keep the burden of proof on them in trying to prove the church is true.

When they finally resort to testimony you have won. I take it a step further and make them try to demonstrate how they can distinguish a testimony from their brain/mind.

I once convinced a mormon missionary online that saying "I know the church is true" is dishonest since they can't prove they know. They agreed they only believed it.

Reading this post, I wasn't going to reply because everyone is right--arguing with a Mormon is as frustrating as pissing into the wind. But kolobian is onto something here. We know that Mormonism is a fraud...so shift the burden on them to show otherwise. I've had a few conversations where I did that...and you just disarm argument after argument.

Do an RfM search for "Stump the Mormon" -

you are in for a treat.

It worked to get me out in my case. But I already had some questions so I was open to what people had to say. I came here and asked some questions. I thought people here would be rude and mean to me so I didn't say anything for awhile. I was too fragile even to have strangers be rude. They weren't. They were gentle in my case as I worked to unravel ingrained beliefs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2014 10:36AM by snuckafoodberry.

I point out to my sister faults in the church all the time and she agrees with me sometimes. But for the most part she's just humoring me. She always has the same line, It's man that has made poor decisions but the gospel is true.

It's very difficult to point out the errors of someone's belief system without feeling like you are being attacked-just read some of these posts on this board - absolutely vicious. I think that a subtle approach (like talking about your own disaffection) will go farther in the long run. Nobody can fault you for having your own opinion.

strawberryshortcake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You get their
> testimony, we can't know everything in this life,
> we just need to have a little faith, or in my case
> I get to be accused of believing I am now a
> scholar, I think I'm God, I'm being contentious,
> and I am to respect my husband in his house.

Yes, isn't it interesting that you give verifiable facts and
they respond with personal attacks on your character as if it's
YOUR fault their religion is fake.

My daughter accussed me of undermining the testimony of her friend (an adult RM) by presenting him with facts and history.

"It isn't my fault that the church is not what it claims to be. It isn't my fault that it just isn't true."

I've been arguing with myself for years. I think I'm finally starting to win.

I know I have heard, from the pulpit, the "mustard seed" analogy used by Mormons. 'one day, yes one day it will take hold and they will know what you say is true.'
What they don't understand is that, while this "IS TRUE", it has the same truth on the ex-Mormon side.

Whether or not you believe Jesus is the Messiah (no
> scholar, including those that are atheists, doubt
He did
>walk on earth)...


Are you sure about that?

Actually I have seen such doubts. By people who think his teachings may have come from a group of "radical" rabbis who lived around that time.

Methinks strawberryshortcake wouldn't count those among her definition of "real scholars."

Avoiding the debate of whether or not he was a flesh and blood man and providing proof that he actually existed are two seperate things. You are contradicting yourself.

Really? Can you point me to one single contemporary account of the man jesus?

Don't worry. I'll wait...

Hmmm.Jesus is a myth. Look it up.

I'm not defending mormonism or saying that we shouldn't be using logical reasoning and thought.

But that being said, I feel that it is okay to accept some things on faith even if you can't prove it or it sounds "out of this world". That's the premise of faith, right? It's kinda like if I can prove that I can talk to animals and understand their language, then you may not hesitate believing that I am capable controlling the wind or something else. Bad example, but perhaps you get the idea. If someone can prove divinity and you can accept that, then after that why question every single step of the way. That's not to say you believe blindly and give up all logic. But debating on smaller issues of how it's possible for for a winged horse to exist or if the gold plates were really gold becomes negligible in a way. Because that should be believed on the premise of faith because you have already accepted something as divine and God is capable of performing the impossible. The question now becomes, can you accept the mormon proof of divinity, which is the bom? And no, personally I can't, bc it's been changed and altered and a bad piece of literature at best. So i guess, with that, I would rule mormonism out as the "true religion". And look for something else that has a real proof of "divinity". Accepting a religion as true is the first step. After that, I don't feel like it's illogical or wrong to accept some things on "faith".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2014 12:44PM by dumped99.

More than half of belief is emotional, so if you argue with someone they just dig in.

People leave the church because they are tired of it. It is not working for them. When they discover its history, they are done.

If someone is happy with the church, Tommy Monson could announce that JS was a fraud and they would still go and pay tithing. It's only those who are already seriously doubting who end up leaving because of what you can tell them.

When I was tbm at byu my non-mo friend and I were discussing prop 8 and I told him that I was against gay marriage. He asked me why and then he gave his reasons for supporting gay marriage. I was suddenly very aware of how weak my reasons were and how I was just parroting what the church wanted me to. That conversation, and me being open-minded enough was important for me changing my thinking.

Missionaries talk about planting seeds and how most converts have many contacts with the church before they actually convert. They're not often ready until they're going through a hard time...looking for friends, lost a loved one, etc...

I think the same applies to deconversion. You might plant seeds by discussing these things with TBM's, but they probably won't come to their senses all at once. They will retain that info though. At some point in the future, when they're feeling that the church is doing nothing for them (it's no longer useful), then they might really dig in and learn the truth for themselves.

No.

No, and I've had similar success talking to walls.