their mission. Or at least that is what I seem to get the feeling of the effectiveness of their program.

On the other hand, these guys http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/education/a/dliarticle.htm seem to have a pretty effective program up and running that seems to be a lot better.

It's almost as if the church lies about how good they are at doing stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 04:04PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

They church uses the power of the priesthood. I have no idea how the sisters learn languages though. that is what I was told. They told story after story of anybody from the US Army to the CIA going to the MTC to learn about the great language program there. Only to be foiled because they just did not understand priesthood power. Queue the ahhhs now.

Most missionaries learn enough of the target language to function as a basic missionary. Any topics, even the most basic, outside of the core job, can't be handled. Over the course of the two years, if the missionary works at it, he may become fairly proficient. Most, though, have terrible accents. Hurts my ears to hear most missionaries or former missionairies speak German.

I have found, though, that most forget everything within a few years of returning home. Some may take some classes, and such, but it is quickly lost.

That's true. I went to Japan on my mission, and most missionaries could teach the discussions (mostly just from memory rather than fluency) and speak survival Japanese, and that was about it. Some became fairly proficient, as you say, but they had to work at it. Most ended up with modest language skills. In my mission, at least, language study was more or less discouraged. I was quite interested in learning Japanese, and had two native Japanese companions, but when I started learning kanji (Chinese characters used in Japanese written language) I was mocked as a "kanji bandit."

About the accent, I still remember a woman missionary in my district who came from the deep South of the United States. She spoke Japanese with the same distinct southern accent as her English. I used to make fun of her, until a Japanese member told me my accent was worse than hers. I ended up minoring in Japanese at BYU, marrying a Japanese woman, living in Japan for 10 years, and speaking Japanese at least some of every day for the more than 30 years since my mission. My accent is, I am told, still terrible.

Still, in the end, it is remarkable that so many Mormons speak another language as fluently as they do compared to the average American, who can speak only one language. American language learning is pitiful. That's a shame. I think you only learn your own language well when you learn another.

<<I think you only learn your own language well when you learn another.>>

This has been my experience as well. Love German as frustrating as it can be. I observed how English works, nuts and bolts, as I learned German. My accent is also horrible. Didn't learn it on a mission. :)

Went to Japan too way back in the mid seventies. I've not kept up the language at all. A lady just a few minutes ago walked passed my office door looking for the stairs to go up to her class. I'm not in one of the classroom buildings, so I thought it strange and asked her what class she was looking for. She said Japanese, and so we had a short introductory conversation in Japanese.

I still occasionally dream in Japanese. Very, very bad Japanese.

While most missionaries "figure out" their language eventually, even that is an exaggeration. They figure out a subset of their language (daily conversational language, & religious language).

Before I go on, I should note that I am probably a narcissist, but on the mission I spoke better Spanish than anyone else. As soon as I got my call, I began studying hard. By the time I got to the MTC I already knew more Spanish than many left the MTC knowing.

I studied hard everyday, and literally read the dictionary and memorized copious amounts of vocab.

At the time, I thought everyone was doing the same thing.

But the more I looked around, the more I realized that even the most language-praised missionaries only knew conversational Spanish.

So when the time came that we needed to draft a legal document to request permission to use public plazas for presentations, I was the one that drafted the letter (a few Elders who spoke Spanish natively even declined, but instead opted to spot check my letter).

Any time a missionary was thrust into a new situation that wasn't religious or mundane, they suddenly couldn't speak or understand spanish.

When I got home, I took a competency test at BYU-I. While I knew I spoke the best in my mission, I assumed there were many like me in other missions. But, the results of my test were that I was given the highest marks any of those professors had seen.

I only took 2 spanish classes, just to keep my spanish sharp, but I was underwhelmed by the fluency of the RMs. By and in large, they couldn't read a simple spanish novel for entertainment.

...of course everyone attributed it to "the gift of tongues" and I let them because I was a TBM prick who was trying to be humble, but the truth was that I slept less than most missionaries so I could study more, & I avidly studied Spanish, & I probably had a natural propensity for language.

I've strayed from the point.
My point is that I agree with the OP mostly... but even the limiting phrase "figuring out" stretches the truth.
Most missionaries IMO don't ever really "figure out" the language, not even with 2 years of their language in college after the mission.

I took Spanish from the time I was 12, so I tested out of a number of classes at BYU and found myself in 3rd year Spanish with all the RMs right off the bat. I'd only spent one summer living in Mexico so, needless to say I was quite intimidated by the way the RMs chattered with each other. I was a teenager in a class with guys (and a few women) who'd mostly lived abroad for two years.

One day the teacher pulled me aside and pointed out that my grade was way lower than it should be, based on my test scores, because I never spoke up in class. I told him I was scared to speak up because all the RMs spoke better than I did and he showed me that even with my years of pitiful school Spanish, I was kicking the RM's butts on all the written work. He said the RMs he'd worked with over the years all had terrible spelling and grammar and tended to use the slang from their mission area instead of speaking the language properly. Most of them had lower grades than I did, despite they lived in Spanish speaking countries and despite my lack of exposure to native speakers.

I agree - Missionaries learn survival Spanish (or whatever language) which many of them promptly lose. Only the missionaries who go the extra mile learn the language well and retain their speaking ability for long post-mission.

My German professor said the same thing. I was over my head in a class full of RMs. I was the only one who hadn't spent 1-2 years in Germany. My professor pulled me aside one day to give me a pep talk. She told me that the RMs can talk in German until they're blue in the face, but they can't write. She told me that my writing is better than most in the class. I also, still do, assume that everyone is doing what I'm doing, taking everything so seriously that I do, but I'm finding out that is rarely the case.

That's funny. I was told in church that the MTC language program was unbelievable, and the military even tried to copy it but it didn't work for them because they didn't have the spirit!

... Then I went on a mission and realized there's nothing special about how well or quickly missionaries learn a language.

Why yes it does. Check my edit of the subject line closely though.

There is no foundation to claim excellence at teaching a foreign language other than self-importance and hubris. We had a nice RM with no training in teaching or Spanish (other than a mission) teach us Spanish. The materials were religious based and many of us came prepared with multiple years of Spanish in our school education.

The MTC is a brainwashing machine and a will breaker designed to create obedience-minded trail horses out of free-spirited playful young stallions. Now if the Church were to claim that the MTC is world-class at brainwashing, group think, and cult indoctrination.

Absolutely, world class at brainwashing.

I had an unfortunate occasion to be at the MTC in the late 80's, this was after my first person experience as a missionary, and also after I had walked away from Mormonism. For some reason this has stuck with me....

Two 60 plus year old men were walking past me, the much taller one said to the other "I hope he was obedient, and did as instructed". I took it as a sign and confirmation of my truthful analysis that the Mormon church is a brainwashing cult only concerned about compliance to authority (wink). Why else would I have overheard such a message at a time so new after my decision to leave Mormonism?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 05:38PM by gentlestrength.

LOL. Gotta give credit where credit is due!

I was told once that the Rosetta Stone method was based on the MTC program.....not true?

Ron Burr

I'll go with the Defense Language Institute in Monterey...

I had a friend who went through there in the '80s to learn arabic.

Besides, Monterey is a much nicer place to live than Provo... And he got paid!

I think that the church actually does a very good job of teaching foreign languages by immersion. I have a minor in German, which is not my Mission language and I am no where near as fluent in German. I was in a PHD program that required proficiency in German, and none of the people who had gone through normal language training were even close to basic missionary skill levels. I worked for a multinational company with many multilingual people, like it or not, Mormons are sought out for their language skills learned on missions. It's true many missionaries don't work very hard on their language skills but that certainly was not the case in my mission. I have traveled using my mission language and can get by talking with people from closely related language groups. Accents are hard to acquire especially after puberty, so don't judge language ability to communicate on just the accent. If you check into it you will find that the CIA, multinational companies etc hire lots of RMs, even to learn new languages. I'm not saying the church makes some bogus claims about this, but I don't think some of the criticism in above posts is not valid.

In large part the criticism is the church taking credit for the missionary's own hard work. I studied Spanish 5 years before leaving, and have kept it up informally (reading novels, etc.) since I got back. To hear people credit the church for this always makes me mad.

Why is it that God blessing me with things always feels like me WORKING MY ASS OFF for them?

Mormon God gets credit for your good works and you get credit for your shortcomings. You don't get confirmation Mormonism is true, that's your shortcoming, not His, keep praying, pay a little extra tithing, don't just fast once a month, go to a grove of trees. That's ExMormon 201, second year, first semester.

I am most confident hiring Mormons in the CIA and FBI is valued because of their affection for being sneaky, little brainwashed drones, with recordable moral drives.

If the language skill is functional all the better. Which is harder? Teaching someone to submit mindlessly to an institutional will or Spanish. With Mormons, you get a twofer!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 07:00PM by gentlestrength.

+1

I agree, BG. A large percentage of the Japanese-speaking Americans working as ex-patriots in Tokyo for foreign companies are former Mormon missionaries.

Some people have a talent for languages. Others don't. Most (like me) fall somewhere in between. The Mormon system of having missionaries cram for two months at the Missionary Training Center and then immersing them in the country appears to be an ideal training ground for the various types of learners. It works a lot better than other systems. The United States military language school in Monterey is good, but not unusually so.

In particular, I've found that I learned spoken Japanese by making mistakes. I've learned the most when I've felt like a fool. The Mormon system gave me plenty of chance to do that once I left Provo and got to Japan. The best feature of the Missionary Training Center study was that it gave me the basics of the language, which I did not understand much at the time but I could draw on once I was out in the field.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 07:25PM by johnsmithson.

(Speaking in the tongue of another land to a native of that country):

"I see that we are three seconds away from a huge asteroid crashing into and destroying the Earth. Would you be willing to take the Word of Wisdom promise?"

I attended DLI-Monterey in the mid 80's and graduated from their 47 week Basic Russian course.

I thought I was pretty smart until I found myself there with people that were truly gifted in language. It was harder than any other college classes I've taken, and I have a MA.

There was no power of the priesthood. The power of beer, maybe. There was a little bar/tavern across the street, and some of the students would get so nervous before the oral exams that they would go tip a few just to loosen up.

Mostly, just tons of hard work and studying.

This is true. It is the best. I studied in the mtc in Brazil and could hold my own in 4 mon the in portuguese and then went on to a language sschool in china.how to studstudy a language helped me learn the hardest language in the world Chinese. I graduated from my Chinese course with the highest grade in my school.

My mission president copied the mtc and made the language school in Brazil called the wizard. He was just in forbes for becoming a billionare and now his school the wizard rivals with brazil public education system.

So yeah the MTC is the best.

Yay a billionaire, must be a great guy!
Yay a Mormon leader, must be a great guy!

He's a Wizard too!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerenblankfeld/2011/04/05/can-teaching-brazilians-new-languages-turn-wizard-into-a-billionaire/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 03:39PM by gentlestrength.

That wasn't my experience. I finally started getting the language about 6 months into my experience and most of the other white guys in the mission I was in were much better at the language than I was.

Since then I've gone on to study language acquisition as well as learn other languages. The reason why the MTC is good is because of the situation and context it is in, as well as the high-brainwashed/quality of the students that go there. The techniques they use aren't amazing or even progressive, but the semi-forced dedication of the students, the quasi-immersive atmosphere, as well as the fact that after the schooling there happens they immediately go on to practice the language in a fully immersive atmosphere, is what makes the MTC a more effective school than many others. I don't think any other language school in the world could truly compete with those circumstances.

As others have pointed out though, the language that missionaries learn isn't always complete. It is heavily skewed towards religious topics, and when missionaries talk about religious topics it can seem like they speak the language better. It isn't that they can't talk about other things, because they can and most of them are just fine at it, but they are just much better at discussing religious topics.

The MTC teaches almost nothing. We learned to pray, introduce ourselves, teach part of the first discussion, and basic conversational skills that anyone that took one high school class would know. My friends that were learning Korean and Chinese couldn't even properly introduce themselves after 9 weeks of language training.

I could speak better than anyone in my MTC district, but I arrived in my first area and I could barely understand anything. I carried a pad around and wrote down every word that I heard or saw that I didn't understand to look up later. I did that for several months, and I was conversationally fluent after about 6 months. Many missionaries didn't try very hard and struggled their entire missions...I bear testimony that there was no "gift of tongues".

However, even those that really worked at it, like me, never became fluent. I realized after my mission that I probably didn't even have a 5th grade reading level. I tried reading the news and every article would have dozens and dozens of words I'd never heard before. I'd run into natives and try having normal conversations about non-church-related stuff and I heard many words I'd never heard. I'd say that ANYBODY that spends 2 years in a country working or going to school will leave with FAR better language skills than 99% of the missionaries that supposedly have god helping them.

A career of foreign language talking here:

The MTC is always looked at by the media as some sort of miracle-working foreign language school. The Mormons take it as evidence the church is true. But foreign language skills learned in the MTC, while not totally worthless, are poor. Even with the languages that are not considered more difficult*--Spanish, French, Italian, for example--the skills acquired at the MTC will only take you through the most elementary of situations. Every now and then there are news articles extolling the great language training at the MTC, but I'm convinced that it's all just the usual PR ploy by LDS, Inc. to polish the turd.

Although I've never been impressed with the MTC, it's not entirely the MTC's fault. I am loathe to defend the Mormon method of teaching language, but it is fair to say that some people have no talent for language much like I have no talent for engineering. Send me through a EE curriculum for a semester, and what comes out on the other end is disappointing. Enthusiasm for learning a foreign language is also a huge barrier. I had three stints at the Defense Language Institute and well remember that some of the young military people felt they were not only being coerced into learning German, but coerced into going abroad to Germany. Where they would live. Where they would eat German food. Drink German beer. See German sights. Get laid by German women. I couldn't understand their resistance to learn and just could not sympathize with their need to stay at home, but some people are like that. The MTC is full of these kinds of people. Add them to the list of those who have actual acquisition problems and you will have a large percentage of boys and girls coming out on the other side with really bad language skills.

When LDS missionaries make it to the field and are thrust into linguistically and culturally challenging situations, they fall on their noses. There have been many good-natured jokes made about ridiculous things missionaries have mistakenly said in their mission languages, but in the end it is a question of LDS church credibility. Do Mormon missionaries have credibility in the first place? No. How does it look when you pile a foreign language onto the problem? Worse. If you pile on cultural ignorance and insensitivity? Abysmal. LDS missionaries in foreign countries basically look more ridiculous than they do on the domestic scene, but I see no real solution unless Monson & Co. were to add on a couple of months of host nation cultural sensitivity training. Not trying to appear too cynical, but we all know how much the LDS church cares about cultural sensitivity.

Anyway, I also think that the MTC truly, truly sux. I'm only trying to say that there is mitigating stuff to consider that is out of their control.

*No one language is intrinsically more difficult than any other. So-called "difficult languages" are those that are considerably outside one's own language family and really present more difficult challenges to the learner. For English speakers, examples might be Japanese or Arabic. This is why the Dutch and the Scandinavians seem to acquire such good English skills, whereas the Japanese, no matter how long they live in an English-speaking environment, seldom acquire similarly good speaking or writing skills. It's tough for an 18 year-old missionary to go through 2 months of Korean or Japanese and be expected to know anything. And then there is the reading challenge. Missionaries I knew who learned Chinese were never taught characters and went into the field totally-totally illiterate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2015 08:24AM by cludgie.

I would agree with this. I did not have issues learning German. Took to it like a duck to water. But I wanted to learn it, and learn it well. So I did. It wasn't done via the power of the holy ghost or whatever.

I did pretty well with German on my mission. But I studied daily. My tools were the green non-mormon German book (some college text they gave me at the MTC), and a Duden I picked up. Also, my first companion was Austrian, and spoke no English. East Germans did not commonly speak English. So it was sink or swim. I always looked for tips from native speakers, and by the latter half of my mission could be mistaken for a Swede, or maybe a platt-deutsch speaker.

Regarding the culture - that was definitely a rude awakening. The church teaches missionaries that there is only this one truth, very matter-of-fact. When you approach Germans with this attitude, they are very turned off. People think Germans would resonate with this, that they are arrogant. I found this to be the opposite. Germans just don't have a filter in the same way we do. Germans just tell you what they think. Once I stopped trying to tell Germans I was right, and everything they had done was wrong, I had a much better experience with them.

Quite a few of my fellow missionaries did not every get very proficient with German. They could talk about church and that's it. Though that wasn't the case all over. There were a bunch who worked hard on language and culture skills. I think the ones who didn't were just there to convert people, and didn't care about the language. They had enough to proselyte.

Fast forward 25 years and I can still read and write with minimal difficulty. Speaking is not as natural as it used to be, takes me about a day being in-country before I'm comfortable. But ability to speak tech-German is weak. But lucky for me a bunch of those words are English ;-)

I am of French ancestry, and took 4 years of French in high school. Got called to France/Paris on my mission (no surprise why, and it didn't involve "inspiration").

When I got to the MTC (1979), I was way ahead of the early lessons they were teaching. After two months, not a one of the mishies in my group were anywhere near my language fluency. I felt really superior.

Landing in France, I got hit with *real* spoken French for the first time. It was fast, full of shortcuts and slang, and I hardly understood a thing. Still, I was praised by the MP and my early companions for how well I had mastered the language. I spoke it better than probably 90% of the missionaries in the mission, even those who'd been there 2 years -- and I could barely hold an intelligent conversation. Of course, I knew the discussions by heart in French, and could rattle them off with a terrific accent -- but I couldn't intelligently discuss them.

Since the MTC lessons were so "basic," and I'd mastered "basic" years before, all I got from the MTC was time to memorize the discussions in another language. I learned *nothing* about the language itself.

I think the MTC did a stellar job prepping me for spanish. Especially considering I was stateside.

when theoretically we learned the language "on the job" during the first six months. Fortunately, I had had two years of German in college before the mission so I had a running start. But we were actively encouraged to study the language, so some of us, at least, acquired a decent command of the language. Most, of course, learned to converse about religion and not much else. Plenty of funny stories about misunderstandings. But my love of the German language, and a good command of it, is about the only worthwhile thing I brought back from my mission.

Don't-ask-me-about-Swiss-dialect-that's-another-story-ly yrs,

S