In a now-closed thread, RfM poster "inmyhappyplace" (aka, "imhp") appears to be in an ongoing and rather unhappy disagreement with me and therefore has ordered me to "give it up." Nonetheless, "imhp" keeps it up by asking me a question relating to the topic of the circumstances surrounding the death of Lynn Grosbeck, mother of Lily, the 18-month -ld baby who survived her plunge into the Spanish Fork River.

Before going there, however, I had asked "imhp" the following question regarding the claim of first responders who said they discovered baby Lily in a half-submerged car in the river after being directed to her by a human "voice":

"OK, then, where did this 'muffled human voice' come from?"

"imhp" refused to answer that question; instead unhappily replying:

"Give it up, Steve. There is a voice."

GONG. Non-answers don't count.

"imhp" has not verified that what was supposedly heard (by either "imhp" listening through a headset to the amplified soundtrack of the released rescue videotape or by the first responders) was, in demonstrated point of fact, "a voice" that directed the rescuing officers to the trapped occupants of the car. Nor has "imhp" identified the source of this supposedly direction-giving "voice." This particular "voice," the officers claimed, was emanating from "inside" the crashed car in the river. Whatever the case, some of the police officers involved in the rescue of Lily said that they "thought" or "felt" they heard was "voice." That is documented by their own words:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1538302,1538728#msg-1538728


In fact, a plausible explanation exists for both the identity and the source of that "muffled voice." RfM poster "Good grief" offers the following:

"There is a female rescuer [at the Spanish Fork River rescue scene]. Watch the full extended version of the video. You can hear the female speaking with the other rescuers throughout the video. No big mystery here. You indeed can hear a muffled woman's voice around the 2:00 mark. The key word here is 'muffled.' You've been told that it is saying 'help me,' so your mind is trying to match that description to what you are hearing. This is no different than the ghost EVP recordings I've heard that usually sound like muffled random noise, but those who are recording them swear it is a ghost saying a certain phrase. They rarely sound like what the recorder is claiming to have heard."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1539234,1539263#msg-1539263


Now, continuing, at "imhp's" request. to the next round:

"You are typically very diligent in documenting your posts. Where is your evidence that the mother died long before the rescuers arrived? Although I could have easily missed it, I haven't seen an official statement to that fact."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1538302,1539233#msg-1539233


As to how long the mother had been dead when she and the vehicle that she had been driving were discovered in the river, this seems to be a question that is relatively easy to determine logically, given the known circumstances and conditions at the time of, and involving, the accident.

Let's review what is known:

1. The car went off the bridge at 10:30 the night before (based on a "loud noise" heard in the immediate area of where the accident occurred).

2. The car (a red Dodge sedan) landed roof-down in the river.

3. The vehicle was discovered by a fisherman at about 12:20 p.m. the following day.

4. The deceased mother's body was found by first responders when they turned the vehilce on its side.

5. The deceased mother's body was still in the driver's seat and submerged below the waterline.

6. The baby was unconscious but still alive because she was dangling above the frigid waterline in her infant seat, in the back seat.

FACT CHECK: Given the above, it is reasonable to conclude that the mother very likely died when the car went into the water, upside down, trapping her underwater where she probably expired quickly, due to lack of oxygen (that is, if the impact of the crash itself did not kill her; or a combination of the two was responsible for her death).


7. CNN reports that, in fact, “[t]he car landed on its roof in the Spanish Fork River.”

8. CNN further reports that the car was “smashed.”

9. CNN explains how the baby (as opposed to the mother) survived the crash: "[The] car seat made the difference. Lily was in the proper car seat for her age, and the seat appears to have been properly attached. Even though the child was trapped and upside-down, her body remained in the seat and above the frigid water. Doctors say that such low temperatures are dangerous, but even more dangerous if the baby had gotten wet.”

10. In fact, as CNN reports, “the water was so cold that when the rescue was over, seven of the men involved had to be treated for hypothermia."

11. CNN reports that "they [the first responders] heaved the car onto its side and saw the mother, [Lynn] Groesbeck, in the driver's seat. It was clear to them that she was dead.” Hence, the conclusion that “Lily's mother . . . died in the crash that had landed their car on its roof in the Spanish Fork River.”

12. CNN reports that there were “no skid marks” at the scene of the accident where the car left the road; and that the car was "launched" into the river after first hitting a concrete barrier near a bridge. This could well have injured, if not killed, the mother.

FACT CHECK: Again, given the circumstances, it is logical to conclude that the mother either died instantly or soon after the car impacted, roof-down, on the bed or the river.

(Sources: “Rescue of Toddler Who Survived River Crash Caught on Video,” by Ray Sanchez, "CNN," 14 March 2015, at: http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/14/us/utah-baby-submerged-car/; and “Baby Who Survived Car Crash in Utah River is getting Better,” by Ben Brumfield, "CNN," at: http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/us/utah-baby-alive-submerged-car/)


13. The "Seattle Times," via the "Associated Press," reports that “[t]emperatures were near-freezing” and that, upon impact in the riverbed, “icy water rushed” into the car “just below [the baby's] head through the broken windows.”

14. The "Seattle Times' quotes a police officer as saying, in reference to the child, that “[s]he must have been just out of the water enough to be getting oxygen,” (The mother, one will recall, was trapped in the front seat below the waterline and, therefore, not getting oxygen).

(Source: “‘It’s heartbreaking’: Baby found dangling in overturned car in river shocks police,” by Bready McCombs, “Associated Press,” in “Seattle Times,” 10 March 2015, at: http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/baby-improving-after-14-hours-in-overturned-car-in-icy-river/)


15. The “New York Daily News“ declares that the “mother drown[ed]" in a “submerged car. . . . which had been submerged in near-freezing water for 14 hours--[where the] mother lay dead in the driver’s seat,” with the car positioned “upside down” in the river.

(Source: “'Mysterious Voice' Led Utah Cops to Discover Child Who Survived for 14 Hours in Submerged Car after Mom Drowned,” by Joel Landau, “New York Daily News,” 10 March 2015, at: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mysterious-voice-leads-police-baby-car-crash-article-1.2142732)
_____


FACT CHECK/CONCLUSION:

The physical factors surrounding the crash add up to the mother having been dead soon, if not immediately, after the the accident occurred, due to her being:

a) submerged below the river's frigid waterline;

b) in a smashed, upside-down car in the river; and

c) trapped without oxygen in the driver's seat, a condition in which her body was ultimately found in the river.

In a nutshell, the mother was found dead, the baby was found unconscious and, consequently, there was no voice found coming from within the car. The truth hurts, but if anyone believes the mother was able to (a) meaningfully move about; (b) communicate with others by yelling out locater directions; or (c) survive for any signficant length of time in those extremely hostile and, yes, deadly conditions, then that would indeed have been a “miracle.” In reality, it's a bridge too far to cross when it comes to credibility.



Edited 22 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 04:33PM by steve benson.

at the beginning. He said ONE guy THOUGHT he heard some one call for help. My friend heard nothing and seemed rather skeptical. The media goes crazy over stuff like this and as a non-believer you can't really be openly critical about these kind of claims because you'll get raked over the coals. Also, when they got the baby out my friend was confidant he saw the baby blink. The baby was NOT in the water! The car was upside down and the baby was suspended ABOVE the water in the passenger side car seat in the back. (The car was upside down, and the baby was in the carseat upside down. If the baby was in the water like the media says then it's head would have been in the water and it would have drowned.) BTW, my friend is an active member of the church. This isn't some anti mormon thing. And HE thought the whole thing was overhyped too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 10:08AM by Ihidmyself.

The reason why skeptics of these tall tales "get raked over the coals" is because of the insecurity of believers who can't or don't want to handle the heat that comes when their feel-good claims are put to the test and come up wanting.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 05:11PM by steve benson.

Steve--you are spot on. I don't believe this hype for one second. Below is the comment I made on the follow-up thread that I imagine won't receive comments because this thread will be the one that gains momentum.

"There is a female rescuer. Watch the full extended version of the video. You can hear the female speaking with the other resuers throughout the video. No big mystery here. You indeed can hear a muffled woman's voice around the 2:00 mark. The key word here is muffled. You've been told that it is saying help me so your mind is trying to match that description to what you are hearing. This is no different than the ghost EVP recordings I've heard that usually sound like muffled random noise but those who are recording them swear it is a ghost saying a certain phrase. They rarely sound like what the recorder is claiming to have heard."

. . . in this thread's OP and gave you proper credit. Thanks. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 02:52PM by steve benson.

Isn't it interesting how these "believers" in the Mormon myth grab onto every little shred to convince themselves that god is looking over them and protecting them.

I guess it never occurred to them that if that were the case, mommy would have been warned about the danger ahead and both could have been saved. But, of course, that may just be too logical for faith believers.

. . . that is, if one is inclined to believe such souped-up supernatural stories in the first place.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 03:08PM by steve benson.

Well I would think that someone who can believe in Mormonism with all its faults, lies, and misrepresentations is capable of believing damn near anything.

Well, I heard the woman's voice saying, "Help me" as well. If it's the voice of the female rescuer, it seems to me that it's easily cleared up by her.

I think it's logical to assume that the mother died on impact. As a former lifeguard, I take a great interest in hypothermia brought on by submersion in frigid water. I am well aware that it can set in quickly. In very cold water, people can get hypothermia in under 15 minutes, sometimes under 10 minutes. I believe that most people don't understand just how quickly hypothermia can happen. You don't play with frigid water.

I recall a television program that talked about being in a downed aircraft in the ocean. They discussed the use of "your seatback as a flotation device" per the flight attendant instructions. Due to the quick effects of hypothermia they stated that it would not be effective and gives passengers a very false sense of security.

So if you heard a voice you'd deny you heard anything?

Rats, I can't hear the voice and I have pretty good ears.

But.

If I did hear it, in person if it happened to me, or on the tape, I wouldn't deny hearing it - that wouldn't make any sense to me. However, I would look for every possible and even unlikely earthly explanation. I'm with summer that the presence of a female rescuer may be a gigantic clue as to the source of the voice and that she can easily clear up the mystery, you'd think.

I am skeptical of "miracles", unfortunately, and that is not my first go-to explanation for seemingly strange goings-on. I agree that most of the things people point to as "miracles" don't hold water, so to speak. I mean, they are usually not rational, such as in this case - yes, it's beyond great that the baby survived but why did the young mother die? It's a bit of a sloppy "miracle" at that point, in my estimation.

I would think "miracle" more if nobody knew the car was there but a rescuer heard a voice calling for help and found the vehicle and rescued its occupants, all alive. According to the information being given in this case, the rescuers were already on scene, after a fisherman saw the submerged car, and they were already trying to turn the car right side up when the voice supposedly called for help. It's not like the voice drew the rescuers to the accident scene. So really, what did hearing the voice accomplish? Nothing that wasn't already in place.

I don't get the "miracle" here. It is absolutely fortuitous and wonderful that the baby survived, of course. Seems like they got to her just in time and wow, what a hardy little girl she must be. She is so lucky to have had a caring mom that placed her in a proper car seat and buckled her in. For the babe, it was fortunate that the car overturned as she was not submerged in water. However, it was the opposite case for her mom.

It's hard to discuss current tragedies such as this. So much trauma and pain. It feels bad to be dissecting it like a science experiment. But we are nothing if not analytical on this board. Me too, so that is not a criticism. I understand our need to do it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 04:54PM by steve benson.

It sure as hell wasn't a ghost, Holy or otherwise.

All of my children could speak quite well at 18 months and would have be capable of saying what this "voice" said. Wasn't the baby upside down? That would have made vocal sounds sound different, even deeper perhaps.

The babe seemed unresponsive at the scene. I can't quite picture her vocalizing at that point. But it is certainly one possibility, even if a distant one. However, would an 18-month old have enough understanding of the situation to utter a cogent phrase about it like "help me"? I can't remember the developmental stages well enough to know but the parents around here could no doubt say.

That kinda limits the explanatory options.

They heard the voice with their spiritual ears?

If you listen to the video, at the 2:00 point in, someone said something and they were far enough away from the mic that I can't really make out what they said, to which the officer responded "We're helping. We're coming." Why are people assuming that the sound was coming from inside the car? There's no evidence of that. And whatever the officer heard, may or may not have been what was actually said.

What we do know is that the mother was dead and the baby was unconscious. Why then, does anyone assume the sound came from these two most unlikely candidates? That's illogical.

"'The four of us heard a distinct voice coming from the car,' [Officer Jared] Warner told CNN. 'To me, it didn't sound like a child's voice.'"
_____

"Tyler Beddoes, a third officer at the scene, said [the following to CNN's 'Anderson Cooper 360']:

"All I know is that it was there, we all heard it, and that just helped us to push us harder, like I say, and do what we could to rescue anyone inside the car."
_____

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2015%2F03%2F09%2Fus%2Futah-baby-alive-submerged-car%2F&ei=R5EIVenECcmwggSs1IGQBA&usg=AFQjCNG89jK6Ix774Fy3muuiECc54LkmeQ&bvm=bv.88198703,d.eXY

(P.S.: The above link is also in the OP)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 04:51PM by steve benson.

It appeared to me, viewing the tape, that there was a lot of confusion and effort going to getting at the people trapped in the car. Under those circumstances, the eye (or ear) witnesses can get things mixed up. It happens all the time and there are many studies to prove that eye witness evidence is the most unreliable of evidence.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 05:13PM by steve benson.

Maybe there is no logical, scientific explanation.
Maybe we just don't know all there is to know about everything.
Maybe there are realms that are not within our understanding.

Resistance is futile, unless one is stubbornly faithful to the wonderful world of woo-woo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 04:52PM by steve benson.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Resistance is futile, unless one is stubbornly
> faithful to the wonderful world of woo-woo.

I only ask the questions. I have no answers. Those are your words not mine. I did not say anything about "woo-woo" -- never assume, you know the answer to that! :-)

If I'm god I get credit for allowing "a voice" to save a baby, but no one is blaming me for allowing the mother to die. I'm god, I can do anything or save anybody. I just chose to not allow the mother to live since I needed her here with me more than that little baby needed her. God is so great, he always wins.

Does anyone who thinks that voice was a "miracle" even think for a second that god was a jerk to kill the mom?

Maybe there is no god that can exercise such power??

There are good reasons to seriously doubt the "hearing voices'" story.

In another thread, poster "just browsing" declared the following:

"For all the non believers in an afterlife. Comments [requested].

"LINK FROM DESERET NEWS--4 police officers heard an adult woman's voice pleading to be helped coming from a partially submerged car--Only occupants inside were a deceased woman and an unconscious 2 year old. SPOOKY !!!!

"What think you?"

("For All the Non-Believers in an Afterlife, Comments," at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1532848,1532848#msg-1532848)
_____


As the saying goes, dead women tell no tales--but believers in non-deadism do.

All of the following are "proof" of an "afterlife," of "God," of the "supernatural"? Not so fast, folks:

"'II FELT LIKE I COULD HEAR someone telling me, "I need help,' [Officer Bryan] DeWitt told CNN affiliate KSL. 'It was very surreal, something that I felt like I could hear.'" [emphasis added]

"Tyler Beddoes, a third officer at the scene, said the same.

"'Someone said "help me" inside that car,' he said.

("Baby who survived car crash in Utah river is getting better," at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2015%2F03%2F09%2Fus%2Futah-baby-alive-submerged-car%2F&ei=xv_9VLqKKYinNoeUgKgH&usg=AFQjCNG89jK6Ix774Fy3muuiECc54LkmeQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY


"'I remember hearing a voice that didn't sound like a child just say, "Help me," one of the rescuers, Officer Jared Warner, told NBC affiliate KSL. 'TO ME, it was plain as day,' he added." [emphasis added]

("Lily Groesbeck Rescue: Utah Cops Recall Pulling Toddler From Overturned Car in River," at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Futah-rescuers-recall-pulling-toddler-overturned-car-river-n319831&ei=xv_9VLqKKYinNoeUgKgH&usg=AFQjCNGvigvAVw3yJy_pB8ceeb7ilbVdVw&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)


"Four Spanish Fork police officers all said they heard it.

"'We've gotten together and just talkin' about it, and all four of us can swear that we heard somebody inside the car saying, "Help,"' officer Jared Warner recalled Sunday. . . .

"Dewitt was one of the first officers to arrive. The incident was originally reported as a possible abandoned vehicle in the river. But as he got closer, he said he could see the mother inside. Three more officers arrived almost simultaneously at the river.

"'We were down on the car and a distinct voice says, "Help me, help me,"' Dewitt recalled.

"'It wasn't just something that was just in our heads. TO ME it was plain as day cause I remember hearing a voice,' officer Tyler Beddoes said. [emphasis added] 'I think it was Dewitt who said, "We're trying. We're trying our best to get in there."

"'How do you explain that? I don't know,' he said, adding that the voice didn't sound like a child."

("Rescuers Recall 'Distinct Voice' that Spurred Them to Rescue Trapped Toddler," at; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ksl.com%2F%3Fnid%3D148%26sid%3D33747089&ei=tw3-VMnEM5PcgwTq4IKQDw&usg=AFQjCNEcswSKOgntjbIRws-eEkC6IBFd8Q&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)


"The officers who rescued a Utah toddler from death’s doorstep in a submerged car on Sunday said their adrenaline-fueled heroics were triggered by a mysterious plea. . . .

"The vehicle crashed into the river around 10:30 p.m., according to a witness who told police he heard the accident. The car was not visible from the roadway, and was not discovered until 14 hours later, when a fisherman spotted it at 12:24 p.m. Saturday and called police.

"That’s when Beddoes and his partners arrived. The witness told them that he could see an arm through the window, and the four men plunged into the freezing rapids to see if they could find any survivors.

"Then, suddenly, they started hearing the distinct sound of a woman’s voice, calling to them to help.

"'We heard a voice saying "help me, WE'RE in here." [emphasis added. [NOTE: Now the voice is claimed to have been speaking for both mother and child, as opposed to just "me".] It was clear as day. We replied back 'hang in there, we're trying what we can.'

"The voice motivated them to push harder because they believed there may be someone inside who was still alive. With their adrenaline pumping they pulled the heavy, water-filled car onto its side and discovered the driver was dead.

"The officers had no explanation for the mysterious voice that appeared to come from inside the car. Beddoes said he said he wouldn’t believe it really happened JAD NOT THE OTHER OFFICERS HEARD IT AS WELL. [emphasis added]

“'I don’t know what I THOUGHT I HEARD,' he said. 'I’m not a typically religious guy. It’s hard to explain--it was definitely something. Where and why it came from, I’m not sure.'"

("'Mysterious Voice' Led Utah Officers to Child Who Survived for 14 Hours in Submerged Car," at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fmysterious-voice-leads-police-baby-car-crash-article-1.2142732&ei=kg7-VLvcDsamggTDooAY&usg=AFQjCNEtOY5a8jodSrBJb8caoz_3eHKSSQ&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)


"As four Utah police officers approached an overturned car discovered below a bridge in an icy river, they heard a woman's voice asking softly for help. . . .

"And that voice? Beddoes said he and the three officers talked later and concurred they all heard the same thing. They can't explain it, but have no doubt they heard it.

"'That's the part that really sends me for a whirl,' Beddoes said. 'I'm not really religious, BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK OF.' [emphasis added] . . .

"Beddoes said the family has thanked him and the other officers for helping to save little Lily. As he recalls the events of those chaotic moments, on a frigid but sunny day, Beddoes still can't believe the girl survived--and still can't make sense of that undeniable voice coming from the car.

"'We all got together and we all heard the same type of thing,' Beddoes said. 'We just can't grasp what we were hearing.'"

("Toddler Improving After 14 Hours in Upside-Down Car in River," at: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2Faponline%2F2015%2F03%2F09%2Fus%2Fap-us-car-in-river-infant-found.html&ei=TBD-VLzrNYiUNtPXgfAI&usg=AFQjCNG2EhHZv2Seclmct1X61ugZ54vWaw&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY)


Whoa. Take a deep breath.

Did the officers perhaps also "FEEL" they heard someone say, "help me"? Were they subliminally predisposed to "hear" a voice because another said he "FELT" he had heard a voice? Or that, as one of the officers officer stated, "TO ME," [that voice] was as plain as day"? Were the officers affected by what one responding officer said "I THOUGHT I heard"?

"Hear" we go again. A supernatural spin being put on an event that doesn't automatically or necessarily require "GOD" as the explanation.


*Critical reaction to the supposedly mystical aspect of the story:

--"I'm skeptical. People claim to see UFOs, be abducted, see heaven when they pass away, see dead relatives etc. People as witnesses often believe they correctly identify suspects in a lineup. I think human minds are really easily swayed into creating memories that may or may not be based on real events. It wouldn't surprise me if someone told her about the event and she reconstructed it in her head, and now believes she vividly remembers it."

--"That's . . . true. Either way, that's all I'm willing to go into on that one. There's not much point to trying to prove a personal story."

("Baby Found Alive 13 Hours after Car Plunges into a River in Utah"


For those willing to swallow tales of the "sacred," superstitious and sensational, the following article is recommended, "Child’s Rescue Swirls with Supernatural":

"An 18-month-old child survives a tragic car crash into a river, a crash that likely instantly killed her mother. She is rescued 14 hours later, alive, still strapped into her car seat. Rescuers then tell the media that they were prompted by an adult female voice that called “Help” from the overturned vehicle. What are we to think of this? Miracle? Guardian angel? Or misinterpretation? The dramatic story has commentators arguing about God and supernatural intervention.

"'Rescuers Claim Mystery Voice Called to Them to Save Toddler Trapped in Car That Overturned in Utah River'

"'Lily wasn’t moving when rescuers found her, hanging upside down in her mother’s smashed car. It had flipped over into a frigid Utah river half a day before, and the baby was still strapped in her seat.

"'Lily’s mother, Lynn Jennifer Groesbeck, died in the crash that had landed their car on its roof in the Spanish Fork River. She was 25 years old. . . .

"'A mystery arose from the rescue: The police officers who entered the water say they heard a voice calling for help.

"'The mother was dead, but the officers said that they heard an adult’s voice calling to them.

“'The four of us heard a distinct voice coming from the car,' Warner told CNN. 'To me, it didn’t sound like a child’s voice.'

"'The voice gave the rescuers a surge of adrenaline needed to push the vehicle upright, he said.'

A local heard the crash the night before but could not see anything strange. A fisherman spotted the vehicle. So, this was not an isolated area. Could there have been someone else around? As suggested on Group of Fort, perhaps a homeless woman was there. Or, the story notes that all the rescuers “discussed” the event. Could it be that one heard what he thought was a cry for help (but instead was an echo or other noise misperceived) and the others agreed? Or, shall we assume that after 14 hours, now was the time that God or the guardian angel chose to act? That’s confusing.

"The mysterious voice did not actually save the child since rescuers were already on the scene and checking for survivors. What saved this child was the car seat, the person who called emergency services, and the rescuers who got her out. No miracle here."


*Attached reader commentary on the above:

-"Not surprising. Religious opportunists will exploit any occasion to put a religious spin on any feel-good story. Isn’t it near Easter enough to call it an Easter Miracle?"


-"Riversides can be quite noisy, depending on what the water is interacting with as it passes by, rocks, trees, etc. And in that circumstance, the ‘cry’ could have been caused by rushing water interacting with parts of the half-submerged car. Also, the rescuers would have been trained and primed to listen for calls for help as part of their job, so perhaps they erred on the side of caution when interpreting the sound as human caused."


-"Heard this story on the 'Today Show' and, naturally, everyone had to chime in on what a ‘miracle’ it was. It seems that anytime someone escapes death or serious injury in any sort of accident it’s a ‘miracle’ to everyone working on television. Wouldn’t it be more of a miracle if everyone in the accident or tragedy walked away without injury rather than one or two? To me the 'miracle' is that some of these folks throwing the term around actually have jobs in journalism."


-"So, it was a miracle the child lived (and to be clear I’m happy the child survived)--but what about the mother who died? She didn’t deserve a miracle? Where is HER miracle? And wouldn’t the child be happier with a living mother?"


-"I was born and raised not far from where this story happened. And from my personal experience, I can say these sort of faith-promoting rumors have a long-standing tradition. Most active members of the pre-dominant religion [Mormon] are always on the lookout for divine interventions, personal revelations and anything that supports their beliefs. Almost every family has some kind of story of a relative that was saved by a vision or a voice. Chance occurrences never seem to happen--always there is some divine purpose. These stories are pretty much a dime a dozen throughout the region. My comment does not mean I think the men involved are liars. Far from it. They probably sincerely believe they were guided. Its just when you are raised to see and expect miracles, you are very likely to experience one–or assume what you see is one."

("Child’s Rescue Swirls with Supernatural Commentary," by "idoubtit," 11 March 2015, on "Doubtful News: Belief/Superstition, Paranormal, Perception, Unsolved Mystery,"at: http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/03/childs-rescue-swirls-with-supernatural-commentary/)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 04:57PM by steve benson.

Each of the four officers distinctly heard a woman's voice calling for help from the direction of the vehicle. The woman who died in the accident, Jennifer Groesbeck, was already dead; they could see her body upside down where the car was overturned, and under water based on reports. So if she didn't die from the impact of the collision, then she did from drowning. The baby was unconscious but otherwise alive and stable all things considered, when found.

You don't have to believe in supernatural occurrences for there to be explanations not rationally proven to science. I believe there could have been an angel or the spirit of the mother calling for help while her infant baby still strapped inside the submerged automobile. Some things belie logical explanation, and this is one of them. One of the officers at the scene told reporters he isn't a particularly religious man, but this had him scratching his head because there was no one else there who could've made the pleas for help.

One of my cousins told me her children were good friends of the young lady who lost her life that day in that tragedy. And that Jennifer Groesbeck's mother had died when she was a young girl, in a house fire. But love never dies. And a mother's love knows no bounds not time or death can overcome. We each will believe what we will.

There are those who believe in an afterlife, and those who don't. We won't know for sure until we're called to our eternal destinations, wherever or whatever that may be.

I cannot discount the four officers observations - and the fact they were each [ear] witness to the same event only confirms it wasn't imaginary but very real. It wasn't a woman on a radio either. The woman's voice came from the direction of the car, according to each of the officers present. The only two people in that submerged car was the already deceased mom and her infant daughter. The exact words being called out to the officers were: ‘Help me, we’re in here.’ And was as clear as day, according to the officers on the scene.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mysterious-voice-leads-police-baby-car-crash-article-1.2142732

"You don't have to believe in supernatural occurrences for there to be explanations not rationally proven to science. I believe there could have been an angel or the spirit of the mother calling for help while her infant baby still strapped inside the submerged automobile. Some things belie logical explanation, and this is one of them. One of the officers at the scene told reporters he isn't a particularly religious man, but this had him scratching his head because there was no one else there who could've made the pleas for help."

To what end, would this supernatural voice call out? The rescuers were already there, helping as fast as they could. What possible purpose would it serve? I can't think of how a disembodied voice calling from inside the car would have changed anything at all....

It doesn't negate the event or what the officers were witness to.

Not everything in life has an explanation. Life in itself is a great mystery, and especially so the afterlife - assuming there is one. We don't have to see it for it to be real. We don't have to believe for it to exist. If it does.

We don't have to assign a supernatural explanation to that which cannot be easily explained either. The reason a supernatural explanation is inferior is because it has no basis in known facts.

Explanations of experiences vary. Some explanations are more persuasive and compelling than others. I go for the ones that are most empirically and demonstrably dissected and demonstrated. You talk as if this river event cannot be scientifically explained. This is where unreasoned faith gets in the way of observational, testable scientific investigation.

The Spanish Fork River Rescue is not "a great mystery," so may I suggest that you think about stop trying to make it one.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 05:30PM by steve benson.

. . . should be to search for the empirically-proveable ones, particularly when the evidence for them can be discovered and/or reasonable deduced based on available data. That is what forensic science is all about--and that science certainly is relevant in this case when it comes to seeking an understanding of what happened and why.

The Spanish Fork River Rescue doesn't require the invention and intervention of an angel in order to be understood, so the magical invocation of one doesn't really help us toward elucidation.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 05:31PM by steve benson.

amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Each of the four officers distinctly heard a
> woman's voice calling for help from the direction
> of the vehicle.

Actually, no -- read the quotes Steve posted.

> You don't have to believe in supernatural
> occurrences for there to be explanations not
> rationally proven to science. I believe there
> could have been an angel or the spirit of the
> mother calling for help...

And then you jump, without any evidence whatsoever, to the supernatural.
Not knowing how to explain something means not knowing how to explain something (although in this case, there are plenty of reasonable explanations). It doesn't mean it was angels or spirits.

Science doesn't presume to have all the answers. Asking questions is the nature of science. Coming up with explanations where possible. Not everything is so neatly packaged; which science only confirms that there aren't rational explanations for the greatest miracle of all and that is existence itself. We can't presume to know what we don't know about our place in the Cosmos. Doesn't mean we should succumb to anything goes. But neither should we rely too much on empirical evidence for the unseen forces that surround our world.

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." ~ Albert Einstein (a Deist)

My late cousin Max Born was close friends of Einstein's. They would get embroiled sometimes in heated arguments over the nature of God. Both men were Deists. But Einstein believed that God was a God of order, and that everything under the sun was not coincidence. Born argued that God throws the dice and they land where they may in the affairs of humankind. But agreed the Universe is a perfect order, and that God exists - just at a distance. He doesn't concern himself too much in what goes on here. Einstein emphatically said that yes, He does.

So it's a great debate, is it not? But not being able to see what we cannot see does not mean it doesn't exist. Our eyes and minds are finite. The Universe is infinite.

And infinitely maddening so I don't overwhelm myself by contemplating it too much!

Trying to answer your assertion of empirical evidence to establish an event that is beyond the realm of empirical evidence to do so. Guess I'm just trying to say it will remain a mystery, including and especially to the four officers who witnessed that event when rescuing the baby from the car.

That's why they invoke magical angels and spirits when science is clearly out of their league, beyond their working comprehension and contrary to their supernatural impulses.

Science does not have all the answers but it has a tested and reliable, self-correctging methodology for arriving at answers that are far more compelling than those provided by the fairy-tale spinners of religious belief.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2015 05:37PM by steve benson.

I didn't get that sense from the news article. It was just something no one had or has a logical explanation for!

Embracing the mystery! That's what it is and will remain.

Give in to the bright side. Try science for a change.