I posted most of this at the end of one of the mormon/gay threads earlier. As I was writing it, it seemed (to me) important enough to get its own thread...

There is a fundamental principle of mormon doctrine that is ignored in the gay debate. By the church's own definition, it is executing Satan's plan, by its own actions with respect to laws preventing gay marriage.

Mormonism says that there was a great council in heaven. During that council meeting, Jesus and Satan both had a powerpoint that they showed to elohim. Jesus' said, "Dad, we need to let people be free. They'll screw up, and I'll help them come back here if they choose to accept me." Satan said, "No way. They will all come back, and they won't have a choice. We'll pass laws to make them comply, and it'll be like the yet to be written george orwell novel, 1984."

God tossed Satan, his laptop and his projector into outer darkness, along with everyone who voted to follow his plan. He said, "Damn you Satan. We will NOT impose our will on anyone, ever. Freedom will reign."

The ONLY DIFFERENCE IN THE JESUS/SATAN PLANS WAS "FREE WILL."

So, now the church has said, "Gay marriage is evil. We will deny the free will for same sex individuals to marry by passing laws against it. We will impose our will on everyone in the world."

So, the new temple movie script is re-written. "Today, the part of Satan will be played by 15 old men who pretend to know the will of God. They will go down...and return and report, etc."

See?

So, the main problem with the church's legal actions is that it contradicts the very foundation of Mormonism's gospel...that people are free to choose!

New church name: The Church of Satan Christ of Latter Day Saints. :).

what would Momonism be anyway - without Satan to scare the customers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2010 03:20PM by sisterexmo.

Not any different than any organized crime racket.

First create a problem (sin) and then be the only one that can solve it (religion).

Bob, that's why Mormonism is a CULT! It is disguised as a "protestant" religion!

My daughter is TBM and she has stated this exact thing--that by denying them the right to marry, we are taking away their free agency. Thanks for pointing it out.

Let's get all of the big (INSANE) details of this grand MORmON screw up.

Just as you noted, Free Agency was the selected & prescribed plan for mortality. God has so much preference for it that he tossed Satan out. THEN God sat flat on His divine butt out of respect for Free Agency as he allowed 1/3 of his spirit children to freely wander off to eternal condemnation as they followed nasty control freak Satan.

God was not going to coerce anyone to follow his plan or to do
right, no matter how many spirit children would be lost!
(ALTHOUGH those with less enthusiasm for God's plan would be marked with darker skin while going through the process)

FREE AGENCY REIGNS SUPREME IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS !

Mortality began & rolled on, out to its last grand dispensation. The greatest prophet ever,Joseph Smith, was in charge.
THEN God was so concerned about things that God resorted to the evil coercion of Satan's plan -to make sure that Joe had more than one wife. An Angel of destruction was sent by the God of Free Agency .....to enforce compliance!

FREE AGENCY IS SECONDARY TO JOE SMITH HAVING MULTIPLE SEX PARTNERS (TOO BAD FOR ALL YOU PRE MORTAL EXISTENCE SPIRIT CHILD IDIOTS WHO UNWITTINGLY FOLLOWED SATAN.... and everyone else who was lost!) IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!

It all makes sense..... to MORmONS! (MORmONS!)

the freedom to do whatever you chose, as long as the SCC tells you what you want to choose.

He cites “free agency”, but takes it away with black and white thinking, and mental arm twisting:

“Lehi taught that men are free and must be “free . . . to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day.”6

The old saying “The Lord is voting for me, and Lucifer is voting against me, but it is my vote that counts” describes a doctrinal certainty that our agency is more powerful than the adversary’s will. Agency is precious. We can foolishly, blindly give it away, but it cannot be forcibly taken from us.

There is also an age-old excuse: “The devil made me do it.” Not so! He can deceive you and mislead you, but he does not have the power to force you or anyone else to transgress or to keep you in transgression.”


Of course Packer can force you with indoctrination from birth, family and community coercion and shunning, threats of damnation, etc. Your vote counts only if it is cast where he tells you to cast it.

He cites his own "authority" with circular reasoning:

“Having been warned through the revelations that it would be this way, the prophets and apostles have always been shown what to do.”


Then tries to scare people:

“This general conference was convened at a time when there is such confusion and such danger that our young people hardly know which way they can walk.”


In other words: be scared, and do what I say, just because I say so, or you will be damned if you don't. Members think they are valiant for "choosing the right", but are having their choices (instructions), dictated to them.

SHEEPLE=SUCKERS!

But while the things you say are important and correct, you are still talking about Packer working inside the world of the church to convince people that they have to follow the will of God as given by prophets and apostles. Belief in the church makes one subject to those ideas.

The big issue is passing laws. This forces the will of the church on people who do not believe in the church. The coercion is co-opting the government to enforce your religious beliefs. They enforce it with guns and handcuffs and jail.

According to the church's own doctrine, this is Satan's plan.

So it is a contradiction that reaches beyond those that choose to believe.

is free will either, considering the brand of heavy indoctrination from birth in LD$ Inc., and genuine lack of choice. TSCC does not believe in free will for anyone, not even its membership. It is a dictatorship.

I agree that they are following “satan’s plan” by their own definition, but they think they can do whatever they want, because they like to pretend they represent an imaginary being so they can order people around, collect a lot of money, and live easy off the labor of working people. It is a pyramid scheme.

They also see this as religious persecution. Yes, in light of the horrible treatment of gays, LD$ Inc. think they are the ones being persecuted. They are on the wrong side of separation of church and state, and think they are being valiant in defending their views. Some of the talk below explains the twisted mindset. It also mentions Prop. 8, and I read this, and wonder what rights would they grant the Taliban under the banner of religion, because we don't want to use human rights to dictate to religion do we? (sarcasm, of course)

http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/the-threatened-demise-of-religion-in-the-public-square---talk-given-by-elder-lance-b.-wickman-at-j.-reuben-clark-law-society


"UK Equality Bill

For the past year, the United Kingdom’s Labour government has been seeking to consolidate and strengthen the UK’s antidiscrimination legislation—specifically with respect to homosexuals. Labour’s so-called Equality Bill would have labeled—and forbidden—a church’s employment practice of requiring its employees to adhere to its moral standards. In the case of the Church, this legislation would have prohibited the application of a temple recommend standard of employment. Worthiness for a recommend is a prerequisite to virtually all Church employment and is vitally important to the work of the Church.

At the eleventh hour a coalition of churches—including our Church—was instrumental in persuading the House of Lords, in a very close vote, to amend the Equality Bill so as to adequately circumscribe its application to churches and preserve our recommend standard. That bullet was dodged—but barely!

Notwithstanding, the Pope decried the bill as an unfair assault on people and organizations of faith. In substance, he said that the most fundamental rights of freedom of conscience—what we Latter-day Saints refer to as “free agency” or “moral agency”—were being forced to give way to social rights.

One British commentator endorsed the Pope in an article entitled “The Pope is Right About the Threat to Freedom.”[i] Said he: “There are times when human rights become human wrongs. This happens when rights become more than a defense of human dignity, which is their proper sphere, and become instead a political ideology, relentlessly trampling down everything in their path. This is happening increasingly in Britain, and it is why the Pope’s protest against the Equality Bill, whether we agree with it or not, should be taken seriously.”

He added that “using the ideology of human rights to assault religion risks undermining the very foundation of human rights themselves.”

Sadly, the specter of such an assault is looming large in the United States as well."

Putting my critical thinking on hold for a minute to engage my previous TBM mindset.

The problem is that mormons are still operating under the belief that homosexuality is a choice. The gays are being tempted to act on that choice and those that can resist will be greatly blessed.
It's the same thing as a testimony. Just go on your mission, even if you don't have a strong testimony. Fake it until you make it.

I'm sure most TBMs really believe that if a homosexual person were to fight his urges, marry a person of the opposite sex and fake it, eventually they'll make it and be super blessed for overcoming the adversity.

I imagine that those who are tempted by homosexual impulses must have been super valiant in the pre-existance, so now God needs to test them again to uhm...make sure they stay super? Owww...my brain!

I heard that argument enough--valiant in the preexistence.

Asking them to fake it until they make it--and take me along for the ride. Fun times!

to choose to follow without needing to ask questions.
Freedom to choose to listen and obey.
Freedom to do whatever is asked of you.
Freedom to choose what is given to you.

Anything else is bondage. Some of these traps include:
Going to the park on Sunday.
Paying your bills instead of tithing.
Playing with your children instead of Home Teaching.
Reading what you like.
Going to a qualified nonmormon therapist.
Yoga. Self help.

These unapproved activities can never bring you the happiness and are Satans counterfeits to the freedom that full compliance willful servitude has to offer.