and yet, Vatican Bank is the largest shareholder in the Beretta arms company, largest in the world.

https://usahitman.com/vbmsipb/

Like the Mormon church, the Vatican thrives on secrecy and obscurity to protect its public image. The fix is in politically, with the Treaty of Lateran firmly in place to protect all its agents from discovery, and to grant special status to the bank's financial dealings.

More here:

http://www.economywatch.com/economy-business-and-finance-news/papal-impropriety-the-dark-secrets-of-the-vatican-bank.22-03.html?page=full

Of course arms dealers are Christian. Not followers of the (probably real) radical Jew known by English speakers as Jesus, of course; however, appropriating prominent figures of other religions is the historical norm, so there is indeed a modern movement calling itself Christian and claiming Jesus as its own, despite replacing any awkward philosophical insights, notably "love your neighbor", "forgive those who trespass against you", and especially "turn the other cheek", with whatever economic and/or political strategy is most profitable at the moment.

So, are Christians Christian?

Eggzackly. It seems clear that the Vatican gang are very much not, unless egregious hypocrisy is a necessary trait of today's Christian.

... and in principle I'd agree with the pope on this one.

.....for a given definition of the word 'Christian'

i dont often agree with the papacy, but the hypocrisy of claiming to be a member of a religion of love and forgiveness while, dealing in instruments which have only one real use, is hypocrisy.

I also see the hypocrisy in the RC church investing in an arms company, but maybe the pope himself isn't in close touch with the day-to-day dealings of the church investment branch, so I am inclined to cut him a little slack on that point

I would not be surprised if the pope, on learning this, has the stock sold.

I don't think that reforming the Vatican Bank is a job that is accomplished in a day, or a thousand days. Pope Benedict started the reformation process and hopefully it will continue under Pope Francis. The bank is an independent entity that is run by a board of people who report to the pope.

The same argument that we have about Mormonism. If it is of god why would it need to be reformed.

I get why the Vatican needs a bank account by why does it need a bank? But since they have a bank, how can a bank run by priests get so corrupt? And if Ratzinger was reforming the bank why did Bergoglio have to fire the priests that Ratzinger put in charge? Oh, and how exactly is it independent if the board can be hired and fired by the Pope? I could go on but you get the point. At least LDS inc uses Zions Bank which is a publicly traded bank.

And John Browing, America's greatest firearms inventor, was a Mormon so the Pope was onto something...

Ron Burr

>>“The crux of the Vatican’s problems – whether in finance, or the abuse crisis – is they are an international state without a bona fide legal system. The Vatican cannot police itself and that’s why we see so many scandals.”

We can only imagine how the corrupt TSCC money managers would behave if they were a sovereign nation.

We see what they do with a tax exempt status, which is bad enough as it is.

No True Scotsmen. Or Christians. :)

Maybe the Pope will excommunicate the Swiss Guard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

Or if it's just the arms manufacturing industry he's concerned about, maybe the Swiss Guard will be required to fabricate their own weapons. Back to halberds and flintlocks for the papal protectors!

The Catholic church used to ban "usery", i.e. interest payments on loans, but that just meant that Christians did their banking with members of other religions, who profited greatly. Will a similar situation become the case for weapons manufacture and sales?

I get your point, and I agree somewhat.... although I do think you can draw a line between supplying sidearms for the police, and supplying Surface to Air Missiles for a tinpot dictatorship, or Junta

If you.believe in the teachings of Jesus,the pope has a valid point. Manufacturing and selling arms is against the teachings of Jesus. Whether you agree with the pope on other issues is beside the point

Agreed.

Didn't Jeebus tell someone to sell their stuff and buy a sword?


[Luke 22:36-38]

Perhaps the pope needs to clarify.Just the other day he criticized the allies for not bombing the rail lines to death camps. The Catholic church has always distinguished between just and unjust war. It sounds as if Jesus was talking about protection when he said to get swords. Travelers carried swords in those days so they didnt get robbed and beaten or killed. I dont want to see the police disarmed and obviously nations have to be prepared to protect themselves, but the military insustrial complex is way out.of hand. I think that was the point, but some clarification would help

Just War is almost the most evil idea that Augustine put forward. I get that we latch on to the more benign parts of it, but in City of God Augustine argues that it is better to die in sin than live in sin. He even argues that it is better to kill someone who refuses to convert than to allow them to live having refused god. All in the name of preserving their precious souls.

Just War is not a good idea at all.

I prefer a more nuanced approach like that of John Locke or John Stuart Mill. Protect your individual freedom, cede it when necessary, and take up arms as a last resort, but only when it comes to your individual freedom.

That would be my definition of just war.

The Jihadists rampaging around the middle east now (and for a very long time) believe they are fighting a "just war," and that "god" is on their side.

How about that.

Maybe, but that doesnt make it so. If you dont believe there are times when war is necessary,that is fine,but it means no war ever even to defend yourselves. Are you willing to go that far? Not me

I don't trust this guy at all.

I mean, what kind of drag queen wears a white dress after Labor Day?

And don't even get me started with those scuffed, black clunky shoes!!

At least the last one, you remember, the Nazi, Rat something...

well she wore those smart red pumps, which were an improvement (and Prada!).

Frankly they both need major help with the makeup.

How can One be the head of "that a Great and Abominable Church, the Whore of the Earth", and not wear mascara?!?!

PUH-LEESE!

'Just war' is just war, a much ballyhooed oxymoron.

It is just if you have been attacked without provocation and are defending yourself,IMO

it's the "no true scotsman" logical falacy.

Pretty sure no true scotsman would ever mock the Holy Father.

This pope is at times just plain startling. His willingness to dive into complex issues with soundbite solutions is just not the sort of thing I imagine many Catholics are hoping for.

I take it the arms traders that supply weapons to the Kurds and those defending Christian enclaves in the Middle East are somehow exempt from his edict? Or is he translating the Beatles, "All You Need Is Love," for these communities to sing as they are wholesale slaughtered?

I don't think this is a simple fallacy. The Pope is the most respected Christian theologian on the planet. Popes are also historically tied to warfare, peace negotiations, and arms in general. If Kim Jong-Un puts on a skirt and learns the pipes, is the Scottish Parliament committing a fallacy when it declares he's no true Scotsman?

Not a perfect analogy, of course, but the Pope's more of an authority on Christianity than anyone I know. Or did I just make an 'appeal to authority'?

Maybe the Pope should send James Taylor over there to sing 'you've got a friend'.