Thanks for posting!

NDEs got me on my 'spiritual' journey.

I have not had a NDE ------ thank goodness. However, friends and relative have. So not wanting that experience I went in other directions for 'truth' and information.

I believe my 'other spiritual' experiences without being on drugs, have given me an even more accurate idea of what is going on ----- God, after life, reincarnation, good/evil, etc..

I really enjoyed the page that showed the 'similarities' in most NDEs and the discussion boards. I will probably be back to use those boards when I have more time, as people have questions that didn't get answered by their/relatives NDEs.

I have many NDEs daily just driving to and from work.

Great point!!!

For the rest of you, kick into the Mormon "mind"set, bow your head and ask to be beamed up to Kolob.

Advocates for other-worldly explanations of NDEs--driven by their deep desire to believe in an afterlife--are "led by the light," so to speak, to accept the absolutely nutty idea of individual free-floating minds hovering outside the human skull and operating on all cylinders.

Huh?

Earth to NDErs: What eternal-life advocates wish to describe as the metaphysical paranormality of so-called "near-death experiences" is actually a basic matter based in organic brain physiology.

As one scientific paper on the subject notes:

“. . . [M]odern neuroscience offers not only a wealth of reasons to doubt the possibility of disembodied minds but it also provides much evidence that the compelling subjective phenomena of the NDE can be generated by known brain mechanisms . . . . Believers counter that the NDE seems too real to have been a dream or hallucination but they forget that what we MEAN by the term 'hallucination' is an internally-generated experience so detailed, emotional and believable that it is indistinguishable from ordinary perceptions of reality . . .

“Furthermore, the subjective contents of the NDE are anything but unique to the onset of death. The basic elements of the NDE are common to hallucinations of various sorts; i.e., they are also found in psychedelic drug states, psychoses and migraine and epileptic attacks . . . . Similar experiences have been reported in a surprisingly high proportion of those who panic during natural disasters, when they are psychologically traumatized but in no real physical danger . . . .

"If, as is indeed the case, the components of the NDE have plausible roots in brain physiology, this undermines the argument that they are a glimpse of the afterlife rather than a rich and very believable hallucination.”

(see Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan and Barry L. Beverstein, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C, Canada. "Maria's Near-Death Experience: Waiting for the Other Shoe to Drop," pp. 1-4, 12, reprinted in "Skeptical Inquirer," Vol. 20, No. 4, July/August 1996, at: http://records.viu.ca/www/ipp/pdf/NDE.pdf)


In the same study, the authors aptly describe belief in NDEs as nothing more than dualistic spiritualism bordering on the occult--which, in the final analysis, is religiously-rooted in faith, not factually-footed in science.

They describe NDEs as "so-called 'near-death experiences" that are essentially "comforting beliefs" which their faithful adherents hold to "as evidence for survival of the soul"--a belief, the authors say, "is perhaps the most comforting belief of all."

They explain what is meant by the term "NDE," as defined within the context of the public frenzy these episodes have stirred in the hearts of believers yearning for human immortality:

"Since Raymond Moody ('Life After Life,' 1975, New York: Bantam) coined the term 'near-death experience' to describe a reasonably consistent set of experience recalled by about a third of those who are resuscitated after near-fatal incidents, such descriptions have been welcomed with enthusiasm by a large segment of the public.

"The NDE typically begins with a sense of serenity and relief, followed by a feeling that the self is leaving the body (the 'out-of-body experience,' or OBE). From this vantage point, the disembodied self sometimes feels that it is observing attempts to revive its lifeless body.

"A subset of those who reach the OBE stage further reports being propelled through a spiral tunnel toward a bright light. For some, the light eventually resolves into a significant religious figure, deceased relative or friend, vista of paradise, etc. As rescue procedures begin to take effect, these patients often report feeling great reluctance at being pulled back into the painful, uncertain everyday world. . . .

"Although reports of NDEs have accumulated over the centuries, the rate seems to have increased dramatically in recent times. This is likely due to vast improvements in emergency medicine, coupled with a resurgence of religious fundamentalism worldwide. The spiritual interpretation of NDEs is reinforced by the mass media which prosper by pandering to public longings of all sorts.

"The concept of personal immortality is, in the final analysis, a metaphysical proposition that can only be accepted on faith . . . . While faith alone used to be sufficient to bolster such convictions, the growing prestige of science has left many more sophisticated believers uneasy in the absence of more solid proof of an afterlife. In response, a field of 'near-death studies' has emerged with the thinly-veiled agenda of providing a scientific gloss for religious views of an afterlife.

"About the same time, there emerged another field known as 'anomalistic psychology'. . . . It accepts that experiences such as NDEs and OBEs can seem exceedingly real to those who have them, but offers many reasons to doubt their reality outside the mind of the percipient . . . . Anomalistic psychology seeks naturalistic explanations for various seemingly supernatural states of consciousness based on sound psychological and neurophysiological research."

The authors then commence a successful logical duel against the post-death notion of "dualism":

"To accept notions such as survival after death, disembodied minds and a host of other parapsychological phenomena, one must adopt some form of the philosophical doctrine known as dualism . . . . Dualism asserts that mind is fundamentally different from the physical body, essentially equivalent to the religious concept of any immaterial soul. If dualism is correct, it is possible, some say, for mind or consciousness to disengage temporarily from the body but still retain self-awareness and the ability to gather information and interact physically with the environment. Many dualists also believe that their spiritual selves are immortal and that they will eventually abandon their physical bodies and assume a separate existence in some other realm. All of this is impossible from the standpoint of material monists who assert that mind is equivalent to and inseparable from the functioning of individual brains."

The authors then link NDE belief to devotion to doctrines of both the occult and religious fundamentalism:

"Not surprisingly, NDE accounts are welcomed by many occultists because they appear to be a major impediment to the materialist worldview they find so distasteful. Likewise in fundamentalists circles, NDEs are hailed as a vindication for various spiritual teachings. Materialists readily concede that the subjective experiences of the NDE FEEL compellingly real. Indeed, they contend that NDEs helped suggest the concept of the immortal soul to our ancestors in the first place. Despite the subjective realness of the NDE, however, modern neuroscience offers not only a wealth of reasons to doubt the possibility of disembodied minds but it also provides much evidence that the compelling subjective phenomena of the NDE can be generated by known brain mechanisms . . . . Believers counter that the NDE seems too real to have been a dream or hallucination but they forget that what we MEAN by the term 'hallucination' is an internally-generated experience so detailed, emotional and believable that it is indistinguishable from ordinary perceptions of reality . . . ."

The authors further note that so-called "near-death experiences" are "always reported by people who have not really died [as in the case of Betty Eadie, whose claims are coming up for dissection and disposal]. . . . With the advent of modern resuscitation techniques, . . . it [has] bec[o]me possible in some cases to restore breathing and pulse, often as long as several minutes after they have died. During CPA [cardiopulmonary arrest], the brain undergoes several biochemical and physiological changes but by relying on its limited back-ups of stored oxygen and metabolic fuels, certain aspects of consciousness can be sustained, albeit in a somewhat degraded fashion. Thus, if the resuscitation is successful, it is not surprising that there might be some residual memories from the time one was dying, but not yet dead.

"That there should be some overlap in the recollections of the minority of revived CPA patients who recall anything from the interval tells us more about how the brain ordinarily creates our sense of self and the feeling that there is an external reality than it does about the possibility of an afterlife. Much can be learned from studying the orderly fashion in which these internally-constructed models shut down when the brain is traumatized but because those who have been revived did not reach the irreversible state of brain death, any experiences they recall cannot be said to have come from 'the other side.'"

The authors also point out that NDEs are hardly unique to claims of near-death "proofs" of after-death "reality":

"Furthermore, the subjective contents of the NDE are anything but unique to the onset of death. The basic elements of the NDE are common to hallucinations of various sorts; i.e., they are also found in psychedelic drug states, psychoses and migraine and epileptic attacks . . . . Similar experiences have been reported in a surprisingly high proportion of those who panic during natural disasters, when they are psychologically traumatized but in no real physical danger . . . .

"If, as is indeed the case, the components of the NDE have plausible roots in brain physiology, this undermines the argument that they are a glimpse of the afterlife rather than a rich and very believable hallucination. It is for this reason that accounts of NDEs that contain elements that are logically incompatible with the hallucination hypothesis assume special importance. One attempt to gather objective evidence of this sort, rather than the usual anecdotal, after-the-fact accounts, has been initiated by the British psychiatrist, Peter Fenwick . . . . . He has had messages placed on ledges, above eye level, in the operating theaters of the hospital where he works. If a surgical patient should have an NDE/OBE, then his or her free-floating mind should be able to read the otherwise inaccessible message and recall it upon re-awakening. As yet, no one has been able to provide this kind of objective evidence, which would admittedly create serious problems for the materialist view of mind. In the absence of such strong proof, the spiritually-inclined must fall back on the next best thing: those cases where it seems highly unlikely that the revived person could have known certain things unless his or her fully-conscious spiritual self had been observing from outside the body."

In light of lack of compelling evidence for NDEs and OBEs being supposedly real experiences occurring outside the realm of the physical body and/or brain, the authors conclude with this cautionary reminder from Demosthenes, offered some two millennia ago:

"Nothing is easier than self-deceit, for what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true."
_____


Moreover, as RfM poster “Nightingale” (a professional nurse, by the way, who has seen plenty of this kind of stuff in her medical services experience) also notes:

“If [a] person [i.e., patient] in the OR [operating room] is there due to injury, stroke, heart attack or imminent or recent 'death,' those conditions also affect cognition in a major way, obviously. Perception and memory are vastly influenced by such events, due to pain, shock, insults to organs and systems, fear, stress, confusion, panic, medications, oxygen starvation and many other factors. . . .

“This parallels to me the out-of-body [OBE] type experiences people have in ORs, under anesthesia and/or in the midst of a physical crisis where the brain misperceives sensory input. This can be explained simply as oxygen deprivation, effects of anesthesia, side effects of medications, and any number of other explainable physical phenomena. In Fatima, there were other factors at play but they can be explained by down-to-earth factors . . . .

“I go with the science/medicine on this one. As long as there is a physical explanation for what we perceive I don’t attribute it to a supernatural or miraculous occurrence.”

(“Perception and NDEs: Some Science on the Matter,” posted by “Nightingale,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 28 July 2011, 12:19 a.m., at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,257493,257493#msg-257493)
_____


In short, NDEs/OBEs are terra firma-rooted reminders that your brain is at work--inside your skull.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 06:51AM by steve benson.

Whatever the NDE's are, Steve, they change people's lives ...for the better. The world needs more of them!

Mormons say when justifying why they joined the LDS Cult: it changed their lives and did wonderful things for them.

when you tell them that Mormonism is a proveable fraud, they still insist on sticking with it and believing in it, no matter what you say. the overwhelming, testable, explainable, accessible evidence against Mormonism's ridiculous and easily falsifiable claims means nothing to them because they "know" that Mormonism is "true.

Believers in NDEs do the same thing.

So, thanks for completing the circle with your post above. It's brilliant in its perception. :-)

There is an immense amount of dogma expressed by SOME in the clergy of Science. Seems not unlike a Mormon prophet speaking definitively when people bring up questions which do not fit the current narrative of what is understood. Anyone can draw a line in the sand accepting some information while omitting other information to draw a conclusion conducive to what they want. We all do it to some extent because we don't want our self-image and world view shaken. Steve's atheism is just as rigid his grandpa's Mormonism. It's really quite funny to watch sometimes, debunking ancient man's belief system then conclude their is NO god of creation or an afterlife. That is an immense leap of logic where there is a whole lot of uncertainty. Again, it depends were draw lines in the sand.

Science is nothing more than the measure of the workings of the observable in action. Years ago, electricity was considered pseudo-science or metaphysical. It started off being used by magicians. Tesla who was one of the first people to wrap his mind around this phenomenon was considered a mad-man by some. The same applied to magnets, and to a certain extent still does. Descriptions are not explanations. If people stopped investigating claims no progress would be made. Curiosity is the mother of invention.

For every group of doctors or scientists saying for sure NO to NDE or an afterlife there are also highly credentialed scientists saying, "not so fast lets look into this further". People such as Robert Lanza, Stuart Hamerhoff, or Thomas Campbell are a few who are thinking outside of the box.

As far as I am concerned, I am glad people are looking into this subject. If something definitive is found then great, if not oh well. Every great human advancement came from people venturing into the unknown with the possibility of a negative outcome. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As indicated in your ad-hominid attack, I would definitely take what these two people are saying with a grain of salt. However, we are going to have to do more work on the true nature of reality to put this issue objectively to bed.

How does searching for something that transcends current human knowledge equate to a religion? Is it because it goes into religious territory because it deals with death and the possibility it's not the end? Then we have a lot of scientist folks pointing out reality looks like a simulation. If it's a simulation then why would you kill off your characters for good?

I find the people who are unwilling to think about this as a probability close minded. People build city walls around themselves to create a world view they understand regardless of what they are ignoring outside of those walls.

Try the Art of Dying by Dr Peter Fenwick. In the book he documents lots of accounts that can't all be coincidences. He also documents recurring events before death.

I starting reading this when my mom got really ill and wanted to know how I could possibly help her.


http://skeptiko.com/64-near-death-experience-research-dr-peter-fenwick/

then tell that to the vast majority of the professional, mainstream scientific community that doesn't buy into the hocus pocus hoopla being peddled by its paranormal spiritualist crowd. Neurologists, for example, cite the hard scientific facts that explains the intra-cranial causation and operation of NDEs and OBES.

In other words, they aren't suckers for testimonials.

In the real world of rational scientific testing, so-called "NDEs" have definitively and demonstrably been dismissed as anything but an intra-cranial reality

Indeed, hocus-pocus "near-death experiences" and their "out-of-body experience" kooky cousins are nothing exceptional--as empirical science as amply demonstrated through observation, experimentation, replication and falsification. In reality, they are nothing more than but brain-caused hallucinations brought on by anything from oxygen deprivation to the brain itself, to in-brain receptors taking in LSD-like substances which induce organic-chemical responses which NDE believers mistakenly interpret as manifestations of life-after-death experiential realities--which they demonstrably are not.
_____


Let's review some basics:

In a previous post, RfM contributor “Jesus Smith” referenced an intriguing and informative science article on the brain activity of dying rats--one which underscored the neuro-biological realities (not spiritual mythologies) of so-called “near-death experiences” (NDEs).

(“NDE in Rats? Think Again, If You're Not Brain Dead,” posted by “Jesus Smith,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” discussion board, 13 August 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,988289,988289#msg-988289)


The article, headlined “Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” reports that based on the results of experiments published in the “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sicience,” the brain at the edge of death is, according to the study’s lead author Dr. Jimo Borigin (University of Michigan), "much more active during the dying process than even the waking state."

The article reports that the near-death process of the brain involves a myriad of neurological sensations, as described by those experiencing the NDE, These range "[f]rom bright white lights to out-of-body sensations and feelings of life flashing before their eyes . . . .”

Borigin notes that tests performed on dying rats detected the presence of upper-frequency, electrically-pulsing gamma rays which “were found at even higher levels just after the cardiac arrest than when animals were awake and well”--and which Borigin believes could feasibly “happen in the human brain, and that an elevated level of brain activity and consciousness could give rise to near-death visions.”

The article reports the enthusiastic response of other scientists to the research findings:

“Commenting on the research, Dr. Jason Braithwaite, of the University of Birmingham, said the phenomenon appeared to be the brain's ‘last hurrah.’

"’This is a very neat demonstration of an idea that's been around for a long time: that under certain unfamiliar and confusing circumstances--like near-death--the brain becomes over-stimulated and hyper-excited,’ he said.

"’Like “fire raging through the brain,” activity can surge through brain areas involved in conscious experience, furnishing all resultant perceptions with realer-than-real feelings and emotions.’

“But he added: ‘One limitation is that we do not know when, in time, the near-death experience really occurs. Perhaps it was before patients had anaesthesia, or at some safe point during an operation long before cardiac arrest.

"’However, for those instances where experiences may occur around the time of cardiac arrest --or beyond it --these new findings provide further meat to the bones of the idea that the brain drives these fascinating and striking experiences.’”

(“Near-Death Experiences Are 'Electrical Surge in Dying Brain,'” by Rebecca Morelle, science reporter, “BBC World Service” 12 August 2013, at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23672150)
_____


These findings underscore what mainstream science has known for some time about both the planetary reality and the in-brain neuro-chemistry of “near-death experiences.”

As Matthew Alper, author of “The ‘God’ Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God,” writes:

“. . . [[T]he near-death experience has been reported by a cross-section of nearly every population and must therefore constitute an inherent part of the human condition. As with all other cross-cultural behaviors, this would suggest that the near-death experience . . . most likely represents the consequence of a genetically-inherited trait, a biologically-based response to specific stimuli. Though near-death experiences are conventionally interpreted from a spiritual perspective—the consequence of a brief encounter with the afterworld—I assert that, like all other spiritually-conceived experiences, these, too, are STRICTLY NEURO-PHSYIOLOGICAL IN NATURE” (emphasis added).

Alper proceeds to make the case for the NDE as a purely biological, neurological and chemical phenomenon occurring within the brain itself that is NOT connected to, or stemming from, any so-called “out-of-body” or “spiritual” experience. He breaks these organic causes into various categories.
_____


--NDEs and the Depletion of Oxygen/Blood Flow to the Brain

Alper explains that oxygen and blood supplies are nearly always critical factors in the production of NDEs:

“For starts, near-death experiences almost always occur as a result of decreased blood flow to the brain and/or a lack of oxygen, usually from shock induced either fro severe infection (septic shock), from myocardial ischemia (cardiogenic shock), cardiac arrest or the effects of anesthesia. Apparently, the NDS is integrally linked to one’s physical chemistry.”
_____


--Accounts of Intense Bright Lights During NDEs Are Interpreted by Believers as Proof of an Immortal Soul and Afterlife, but Science Has a Sounder Explanation

Alper recounts how Plato, in his “Republic,” tells “the story of Er, the son of Armenius, who allegedly dies and then comes back to tell the story of his existence during his temporary ascension to heaven and consequent return to the living. During Er’s experience with death, he describes a vison he had of a ‘bright and pur column of light, extending right through the whole of heaven.’ Such descriptions of visions of a bright and often dazzling or blind light leading to heave constitutes one of the key symptoms of the NDE and therefore leads many to believe that what Plato was narrating was just that. It is through Er/s tale that Plato goes on to advance the notion of an immortal soul, as well as an afterlife in his work. As a matter of fact, the NDE might very well represent one of the primary means through which humans validate a belief in some form of an afterlife. . . .

“ . . . [A] common symptom of the NDE, similar to the one narrated [above]by Plato, is described as a sensation of being led down a dark tunnel and then drawn toward a blinding white light, one that is often interpreted as holding religious significance, such as being representative of heaven’s gates. (Such descriptions as these—of experiencing a ‘piercing’ or ‘blinding’ white light—have been attributed to activity within the brain’s optic nerve which has a tendency to erratically flare when deprived of its normal oxygen supply). It is during this same part of the experience that a person will often express a feeling of being engulfed, not just by ‘the light,’ but also by God’s presence.”
_____


--Endorphins Explain the NDE Ecstasy

Alper offers scientific explanations for NDE good vibrations:

“Though there is no international standard through which to formally define a NDE, studies show vast similarities in description of this phenomenon, ones that cross all cultural boundaries (Fenwick, 1997; Feng and Lin, 1976, Parischa and Stevenson, 1986) . . . [I]n the majority of recorded accounts, the first thing most recall of their experience is a feeling of intense fear and pain that is suddenly replaced by a sense of clam, peace and equanimity (similar to those sensations attributed to more generic spiritual experiences). To offer support of a neuro-physical model to explain this phenomenon, D. B Carr suggested (1981, 1989) that the aforementioned sensations, in so far as they are experienced during a NDE, might come as a result of a flood release of endogenous opiods (endorphins).”
_____


--The NDE Cousin (the Out-of-Body Experience") Is Way More In-the-Brain than Out-of-the-Body

Alper addresses the relationship between OBEs and NDEs:

“[In order of frequency after the ‘sense of calmness or euphoria’ produced in a NDE], the next most often-related symptom to occur during an NDE is that of an OBE, or ‘out-of-body’ experience. Here, the person describes a sensation of rising or floating outside of one’s physical body and, in some cases, even being able to look down at one’s self from above. One hospital, in order to validate claims of ‘out –of-‘body’ experiences, placed an LED marquee above its patients’ beds which displayed a secret message that could only be read if one were looking down from above. To date, not one person who has claimed to have had a NDE or ‘out-of-body’ experience from within this hospital has expressed having seen the message.

“During this part of the [NDE] experience, those undergoing an OBE have expressed a sense that their limbs are ‘moving within their mind,’ though they are actually immobile. This is similar to the type of hallucinations, or ‘confabulations,’ suffered by those who sustain right parietal lesions--yet another indication that such experiences can be traced to one’s neuro-physical activity as opposed to originating from one’s alleged spirit or soul.”
_____


--“Spiritual” Commonalities between NDEs, Epileptic Seizures and Psychedelic Drug Use

Alper explains the shared effects among the three:

“Similar to accounts of those who have had either a temporal lob seizure or experimented with entheogenic [psychedelic] drugs, those who have undergone a NDE will almost invariably interpret the experience as being spiritual in nature:

“’Hallucinogen ingestion and temporolimbic epilepsy produce a near-identical experience as described by persons having a near-death experience. These brain disturbances produce de-personalization, de-realization, ecstasy, a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, and other experiences that foster religious-numinous interpretation.’ (‘Journal of Neuropsychiatry: Clinical Neuroscience,' 1997, Summer 9[3], pp. 498-510)

“Consequently, it is no surprise that a significant number of those who undergo a NDE claim that it strengthens their faith in God, a soul and an afterlife. Regardless of how these experiences are interpreted, we must ask ourselves: ‘Is this type of experience transcendental in nature or, like all other types of spiritual experiences, are we dealing with a serious of strictly neuro-physical events?’”
_____


--NDEs are Facilitated by the Brain’s Chemical-Transmitting Receptors

Alper describes how brain-based chemicals create the NDE experience:

“One key to answering [the above] question comes through the research of a Dr. Karl Jansen who has found that ‘[n]ear-death experiences can be induced by using the dissociative drug ketamine’ (K.I.R. Jansen, M.D., ‘Using Ketamine to Induce the Near-Death Experience,’ p. 64).

"Dr. Jansen’s report goes on to state that ‘[i]t is now clear that NDEs are due to the blockade of brain receptors (drug-binding sites) for the neurotransmitter glutamate. These binding sites are called the N-methly-D-asparate (NMDA) receptors. Conditions which precipitate NDEs (low oxygen, low blood flow, low blood sugar, temporal lobe epilepsy, etc.) have been shown to release a flood of glutamate, over-activating NMDA receptors. Conditions which trigger a glutamate flood may also trigger a flood of ketamine-like brain chemicals, leading to an altered state of consciousness,’ (ibid., p. 73)

“It was also found than an intravenous injection of 50-100mg of ketamine reproduces all of the features commonly associated with the near-death experience. (Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1995, 1996). Even Timothy Leary, the notorious psychedelic drug advocate of the 1960s, described his experiences with ketamine as an ‘experiment in voluntary death’ (Leary, 1983).

“Similar to the manner in which entheogenic drugs trigger the symptoms of a ‘spiritual’ experience, the drug ketamine can be used to synthetically trigger the symptoms of a near-death experience. “
_____


--Neuro-Chemistry, Not Spirituality, is the Source of NDEs

Alper lays out the scientific foundations of NDEs:

“What [the above] suggests is that, as with any other type of spiritual experience, near-death experiences are rooted in our neuro-chemistry. Apparently, the NDE represents the consequence of a physiological mechanism that enables our species to cope with the overwhelming pain and anxiety associated with the experience of death and dying.

“Once again, though such evidence can never prove there is not spiritual reality, it is certainly indicative that this might very well be the case. “

(Matthew Alper, “The God Part of the Brain: A Scientific Interpretation of Human Spirituality and God” [New York, New York: Rogue Press, 2000], Chapter 8, “Near-Death Experiences,” pp. 140-43, and “Endnotes,” #79-81, p. 177)

**********


For those who might still want to believe in the alleged "spiritual/religious/godly/immortal" reality of NDEs, you're in a sense right:

It's all in your head. Enjoy the ride.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 07:11AM by steve benson.

No one knows what causes consciousness, so I'm not sure how we can be so sure it goes away when we die - nothing outside the body.

I agree science points to the idea that when we die we are done - but until someone explains consciousness, I don't see how you can totally discount NDEs.

perky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one knows what causes consciousness, so I'm not
> sure how we can be so sure it goes away when we
> die - nothing outside the body.

We're not "sure." The thing is, all the evidence we have shows that consciousness -- even if not fully understood -- comes from working physical brains. No evidence of consciousness without a working physical brain exists. It *could* exist without a working physical brain, but nobody has ever been able to show that it DOES.

> I agree science points to the idea that when we
> die we are done - but until someone explains
> consciousness, I don't see how you can totally
> discount NDEs.

There's little to no doubt that people have "experiences" they call NDEs. What can be totally discounted, as no evidence backs up the idea, is that NDEs are evidence of a "spirit" or "soul" or consciousness outside the brain or "afterlife."

What are NDEs, then? All the evidence we have, though not absolutely conclusive, shows them to be the product of brains. No evidence shows them to be the product of "spirits" or "souls" or "consciousness outside the brain." Despite the proponents who claim they are evidence of such things.

Again, they COULD be the product of some kind of consciousness outside the brain or some kind of "spirit." There just isn't any evidence to show that they are.

you therefore choose to fill the perceived void with mystical, magical, popularized pseudo-scientific claptrap.

This is how religions are born.

Whatever works for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 09:09PM by steve benson.

Unfortunately Steve if you never have had an NDE then you are certainly not qualified to assure others that they don't exist .!!! In your world, narrow as it may be, perhaps your mind is not capable of expanding to understand different realms of existence.

Steve -- It's like being shot at, until it actually happens to you, you will never be quite certain how you will react. Some people run and some people stand and fight. You would like to think you would be super brave.

**WHO KNOWS** but one thing for sure, you are way closer to finding out than you once were.

JB

Just browsing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unfortunately Steve if you never have had an NDE
> then you are certainly not qualified to assure
> others that they don't exist .!!! In your world,
> narrow as it may be, perhaps your mind is not
> capable of expanding to understand different
> realms of existence.

I've never stood on the surface of the moon without a space suit. Neither has anyone else. However, I am entirely qualified to assure anyone and everyone that if you stand on the surface of the moon without a space suit, you will die.
Know why I'm qualified to make that assurance?
'Cause of facts and science.

Oh, and by the way, the old believer's dodge of "you just aren't capable of understanding" is just an admission that you don't have any evidence to back up your claims. I'd avoid using it if I were you.

Oh just a ball of fun! Lol

They just don't know how to quantify them scientifically, so they fall back on religious and "spiritual "explanations for them.

Using your "logic,0 because someone may not of had "a burning in the bosom@" about the book of Mormon, there's no way they can understand that the Book of Mormon is true.

I'm amazed how some people can compartmentalize their rational side from their "I-just-wanna-believe" side and not blink a Healthy, skeptical, and critical Icritical eye over this snake oil silliness. It's like a Joseph Smith-era upstate New York tent revival.

They simply don't know how to quantify these in-head hallucinations scientifically because dealing with the hard sciences is, for them, like trying to speak in tongues – – they might be able to fake the lingo but they don't understand it.

So, they fall back on religious and "spiritual" explanations for answers that short circuit critical thinking.

Using your "logic," because someone may not of had "a burning in the bosom" about the Book of Mormon, there's no way for them To "know" the Book of Mormon is "true."

I'm amazed how some people can compartmentalize their rational side from their "I-just-wanna-believe" side and not blink a Healthy, skeptical, and critical Icritical eye over this snake oil silliness. It's like a Joseph Smith-era upstate New York tent revival.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 10:13PM by steve benson.

Thanks for sharing the link, Topper.

It's filled with resources on the study of NDE, but the website browser it uses is extremely slow to browse it.

Another site that seems more up-to-date on the same subject and scholarly is the iands.org

Can navigate around that much more easily than the other, and it has vast resources there as well, including scholastic journal articles on the subject.

http://iands.org/home.html

4,000 or 40...

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." It's "anecdotes."

What do you take "data" to mean?

Richard Foxe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you take "data" to mean?

https://sites.google.com/site/skepticalmedicine//the-plural-of-anecdote-is-not-data

That's odd, my sociology textbook defines "anecdotes" as:

"non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof or data, but which may assist research efforts"

And further goes on to say that anecdotes may be useful for forming testable hypotheses, but not as data for affirming or falsifying those hypotheses.

I suppose one can consider anecdotes as "data" about the prevalence of anecdotes, or the propensity of people to tell or believe anecdotes, etc. Is that what you meant?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 08:35PM by ificouldhietokolob.

"In 2008, a large-scale study involving 2060 patients from 15 hospitals in the United Kingdom, United States and Austria was launched. The AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation) study, sponsored by the University of Southampton in the UK, examined the broad range of mental experiences in relation to death. Researchers also tested the validity of conscious experiences using objective markers for the first time in a large study to determine whether claims of awareness compatible with out-of-body experiences correspond with real or hallucinatory events.

Results of the study have been published in the journal Resuscitation.

Dr Sam Parnia, Assistant Professor of Critical Care Medicine and Director of Resuscitation Research at The State University of New York at Stony Brook, USA, and the study's lead author, explained: "Contrary to perception, death is not a specific moment but a potentially reversible process that occurs after any severe illness or accident causes the heart, lungs and brain to cease functioning. If attempts are made to reverse this process, it is referred to as 'cardiac arrest'; however, if these attempts do not succeed it is called 'death'. In this study we wanted to go beyond the emotionally charged yet poorly defined term of NDEs to explore objectively what happens when we die."

Thirty-nine per cent of patients who survived cardiac arrest and were able to undergo structured interviews described a perception of awareness, but interestingly did not have any explicit recall of events.

"This suggests more people may have mental activity initially but then lose their memories after recovery, either due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory recall," explained Dr Parnia, who was an Honorary Research Fellow at the University of Southampton when he started the AWARE study.

Among those who reported a perception of awareness and completed further interviews, 46 per cent experienced a broad range of mental recollections in relation to death that were not compatible with the commonly used term of NDE's. These included fearful and persecutory experiences. Only 9 per cent had experiences compatible with NDEs and 2 per cent exhibited full awareness compatible with OBE's with explicit recall of 'seeing' and 'hearing' events.

One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest. Dr Parnia concluded: "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn't resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.

"Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients' experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE's), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice."

Further studies are also needed to explore whether awareness (explicit or implicit) may lead to long term adverse psychological outcomes including post-traumatic stress disorder.

Dr Jerry Nolan, Editor-in-Chief of Resuscitation, stated: "The AWARE study researchers are to be congratulated on the completion of a fascinating study that will open the door to more extensive research into what happens when we die."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141007092108.htm

Woo-hoo! One study didn't conclusively disprove NDEs...!

Let us know when there's any evidence at all that NDEs have anything whatsoever to do with a "soul" or "spirit" or afterlife. Until then, there's no reason to believe they DO.

And, if they can't find one (which they won't in the mainstream science world of legitimate, empirical, repeatable, testable and falsifiable research))", they will resort to using their brainiac imaginations to make stuff up.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 10:16PM by steve benson.

SCIENCE AND SPIRITUALITY: A CHALLENGE FOR THE 21ST CENTURY
The Bruce Greyson Lecture from the International Association for Near-Death Studies 2004 Annual Conference
Peter Fenwick, M.D., F.R.C.Psych.
Institute of Psychiatry, Kings College, London, U.K.
Mental Health Group, University of Southampton, U.K.

fenwickPeter Fenwick, M.D., F.R.C.Psych., is Senior Lecturer at the Institute of Psychiatry, Kings College, London, and associated with the Mental Health Group at the University of Southampton. He is also Consultant Neuropsychiatrist at the Maudsley Hospital and at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, and holds a visiting professorship in Japan, where he spends three months of the year in advanced neuropsychiatric research. Reprint requests should be addressed to Dr. Fenwick at the Institute for Psychiatry, deCrespigny Park Road, London S.E.5, United Kingdom.

This paper was transcribed and edited from Dr. Fenwick’s Bruce Greyson Lecture at the 2004 annual conference of the International Association for Near-Death Studies by Janice Miner Holden, Ed.D., Professor in, and Coordinator of, the counseling program at the University of North Texas in Denton. Dr. Holden’s primary area of research interest is the transpersonal perspective in counseling, in general, and near-death and similar experiences – their veridicality and their role in personal and transpersonal development – in particular. She currently serves as president of the International Association for Near-Death Studies.

""A major and relatively rapid shift is underway in the field of medicine. In the past 10 years, medical professionals have gone from looking upon spirituality with a skeptical if not cynical eye, to embracing it enthusiastically. Consider these developments/:""

http://iands.org/research/nde-research/important-research-articles/42-dr-peter-fenwick-md-science-and-spirituality.html?showall=1

^^^ a more recent offering from your naysayer, Peter Fenwick.

I'm sure that Steve will have plenty to say about this post but I wanted to chime in and call it 100% bunk.

The International Association for Near-Death Studies is as close to FARMS as I have ever seen. And being one of the leading researchers of NDEs puts this guy up with Daniel Peterson.

I drove by Starbucks this morning, but didn't pull in because the line was too long.

It was quite the "near coffee experience."

From what I've read and heard, many TBMs have reported Near-Life Experiences (NLEs).

There are common threads to the Mormons' NLEs. For example, many report spontaneously laughing at crude jokes. Others find themselves ogling an attractive scantily-clad shopper or two at the supermarket. Others sneak a cup of coffee when everyone else is away from home.

Although it cannot be conclusively proved that the Mormons reporting NLEs were in fact briefly ALIVE before returning to their usual mindless zombie-like existence, the frequency and consistency of these reports provide a tantalizing glimpse into what has long been thought impossible: the ability of Mormons to actually experience real life.

More research is needed.

gbl -- you made my morning :)

NDEs have occurred when there is no measurable brain activity. Some individuals report verifiable events seen out of the body and remote from the body that were not assessable from the body senses.
There is a compulsion to fit existence into our existing paradigms, thus avoiding the pain of cognitive dissidence. This is the hallmark of religiosity that is demonstrated by a neurotic drive to explain away anything that runs counter to one’s beliefs and an absolute and concrete sureness of the nature of reality.

ab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NDEs have occurred when there is no measurable
> brain activity.

Maybe, maybe not.
See, people SAYING that "my experience happened at x time" is not verification that it did. When unconcious or under the influence of drugs, people lose track of time. The "experience" could have occurred just before or after the cessation of brain activity, and the person THOUGHT it happened earlier or later.

> Some individuals report verifiable
> events seen out of the body and remote from the
> body that were not assessable from the body
> senses.

Not so. Not a single *verifiable* report that required any "out of body" experience has been reported. In fact, the three times that attempts to *verify* such reports have been made (by putting upward-facing signs or screens in ORs that someone would HAVE to be "out of body" to see) have resulted in nobody seeing anything verifiable.

And such famous (or infamous?) "cases" like the "red shoe on the roof" report have been shown fraudulent.

There's no need to pull out the "compulsion" stuff, either. Many of us are genuinely and honestly curious about how stuff actually works and happens, no matter what the answer is. The issue with NDEs and other such *claimed* phenomena is that the proponents make outrageous claims without any supporting evidence. That's not how you show things are "real." It's how you get rational people to ridicule your claims for the unsupportable nonsense they are.

Finally, for "spiritist" below: there's really no need to "debunk" such things. The claims about them have no merit, as evidence FOR their reality does not exist. Until verifiable evidence FOR their reality comes forth, the claims have no merit...except for people who WISH to "believe" them despite there not being evidence.

Doesn't Atheism make outrageous claims with no supporting evidence?

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't Atheism make outrageous claims with no
> supporting evidence?

Since atheism makes no claims at all...no.

It's a lack of belief in claims other people make about "god" things. It's not a claim that there's no "god."
Some atheists do indeed believe there's no "god" -- but that's not what atheism is.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Doesn't Atheism make outrageous claims with no
> > supporting evidence?
>
> Since atheism makes no claims at all...no.
>
> It's a lack of belief in claims other people make
> about "god" things. It's not a claim that there's
> no "god."
> Some atheists do indeed believe there's no "god"
> -- but that's not what atheism is.

Atheism promotes a worldview. Here's a perfect example. http://www.atheists.org/page.aspx?pid=329 Its dependent on the individual's adaption of atheism just like Christianity. You have a spectrum. You have atheist who don't give a crap about God related things like NDE and those that are more orthodox who oppose the mentioning of it without fully looking into it.

The assertion that authentically-determined brain-dead "flat-liners" experience NDEs is simply not accepted as a mainstream scientifically-demonstrated fact.

For example, examination of the holy-hyped "Pam Reynolds" case (often cited by ill-informed NDE believers) shows that, contrary to their claims, this episode did not actually involve purported clinical/brain death, thereby rendering pro-NDE arguments on that score to be essentially null and void.

(http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,989490,990048#msg-990048)
_____


Moreover, claims about brain-dead individuals supposedly having NDEs is effectively countered in the article, "Near-Death Experience Skeptic: G.M. Woerlee Takes Aim at Dr. Jeffrey Long’s 'Evidence of the Afterlife,'"

(interview published in "Skeptico," 16 March 2010, at: http://www.skeptiko.com/near-death-experience-skeptic-gm-woerlee/)

Woerlee: ". . . [M]ost people fall down in the street or they suddenly have a heart attack in a ward or another place in the hospital. An electroencephalograph is never attached for the very simple reason that it’s very difficult to do that at the same time as someone is receiving heart massage.

"In fact, the presumption that all these people were flat-lined at the time is only a presumption. And in fact, no one actually of these people in the research of Dr. Pin van Lommel or Sam Parnia and other people ever had an electroencephalograph machine attached to their heads.

"So, the presumption of flat-lining is purely an assumption because they remember electroencephalographic activity ceases after 4 to 30 seconds. In that case, they’re flat-lined. They forget the action of the cardiac massage, which is to pump blood around the body."

Tsakiris: "A couple of points there: I think it’s good that you remind us, which we often forget when we’re talking about death, death, near-death, that we’re talking about the folks who come back to life. I think that’s a valid point."

"But I still have a couple of pretty big problems with your argument.

"1) The first is the people who die, particularly those who have a heart attack because it’s easier to study because we know the physiology--they’re not supposed to have the kind of experiences that Dr. Long found. One point that you just mentioned was pain. In particular, these people complain about pain from the defibrillator, pain from people pounding on their chest, and yet Dr. Long’s survey finds that there isn’t this pain. That appears hardly at all in the surveys.

"2) The other thing I would interject while we’re talking about heart massage and that; I don’t know this, but one of my listeners contacted me and his sister is an emergency care nurse and said that the most common procedure when someone is in hospital and has cardiac arrest is the defibrillator. Pounding on the chest is secondary. The first thing you do is go over and zap them with the paddles. A lot of times, the heart massage is the last resort many minutes later.

"All that leads back to what you’re alluding to, and we really have to break it down. There’s three parts to this process, particularly when we look at cardiac arrest. There’s that 10 to 15 seconds between when the heart stops and the brain stops. Our best medical knowledge says that the brain is under a lot of stress and it shouldn’t be lucid and coherent during that time.

"The second part we have is when the brain is flat-lined or dead or we can assume nothing is happening. There hasn’t been any attempt to resuscitate this person, and during that time we definitely don’t have any explanation for why they were having a conscious experience.

"The third part you are alluding to, and you mentioned quite rightly that now we’re getting blood flow back to the brain so there is a chance for some conscious experience, but again, I’m going to rely on you here, but doesn’t our best medical knowledge tell us that during that process of resuscitation, the brain coming back online after it’s been dead, we wouldn’t expect it to be lucid and coherent. Isn’t just the opposite the normal expectation of how that brain is working during that time?"

Woerlee: "They’re all interesting problems and in fact, they can be answered. To begin with, a person who has a cardiac arrest has a short period of consciousness when they can hear people rushing to the bed if they’re in a coronary care unit. As you quite correctly said, in a coronary care unit the first thing they do is defibrillate people. Out on the street or elsewhere in the hospital they don’t have this luxury, so they first do cardiac massage. That is what most people undergo.

"Then, we come to the point of cardiac massage as I explained does restore a flow of blood to the brain. But does this restore any electrical activity to the brain? That’s an interesting question. In fact, there are several studies which do show and also case reports which do show that this is the case.

"What you actually have during a cardiac arrest is blood flow to the brain stops. This means within seconds the brain becomes oxygen-starved. No one denies this. This is certain because the brain has no reserve store of oxygen. The brain becomes oxygen-starved and then when you have cardiac massage, a flow of blood is restored, sometimes sufficient to sustain consciousness.

"One study which was done on a patient who actually had an EEG or electroencephalograph – I’ll use the longer term because the Americans use ECG instead of electroencephalograph, while in Europe we use EEG so it’s a bit confusing for many people. Anyway, they had an electroencephalograph but that’s to the head of this person. He had a cardiac arrest. The electroencephalographic activity fell away as expected. Heart massage was applied, or cardiac massage, whatever you like to call it, and within 20 seconds after cardiac massage was instituted, electrical brain activity was restored.

"Similarly, other studies have been done with bi-spectral analysis, an apparatus that’s a method and sort of integrated electroencephalograph used to monitor awareness during anesthesia. Some people have had this apparatus attached to their head during anesthesia and during the pre-period they developed a cardiac arrest. During cardiac massage, bispectral activity reappeared. In other words, electroencephalo-graphic activity reappeared. So in fact, cardiac massage can restore electroencephalographic activity if applied efficiently.

"It will not occur in all people because not everyone is expert at applying cardiac massage and not everyone has a chest which makes cardiac massage easy. Not everyone has enough broken ribs to make cardiac massage very effective."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,976496,976496#msg-976496
_____


Finally, people who are, in fact, clinically brain-dead do not have a history of being revived to take about their alleged NDEs experienced "on the other side," so, once again, the NDE pom-pom squad is left to do the wave without a working knowledge of brain death:

"That there should be some overlap in the recollections of the minority of revived CPA patients who recall anything from the interval tells us more about how the brain ordinarily creates our sense of self and the feeling that there is an external reality than it does about the possibility of an afterlife. Much can be learned from studying the orderly fashion in which these internally-constructed models shut down when the brain is traumatized but because those who have been revived did not reach the irreversible state of brain death, any experiences they recall cannot be said to have come from 'the other side.'"

("Maria's Near-Death Experience: Waiting for the Other Shoe to Drop," under the subhead, "Maria's NDE," by Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan and Barry L. Beverstein of Simon Fraser University (Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada), reprinted in "Skeptical Inquirer," Vol. 20, No. 4, July/August 1996). 20, No. 4, July/August 1996)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 03:17PM by steve benson.

I will not argue that 'science for the masses' which I believe is different from 'science' for the ones truly interested, powerful and wealthy, has not accepted that there is 'valid proof' or 'significant evidence' of the after life.

That is perfectly fine with me and many others. However, it will not impact our 'experimenting' with this type of stuff periodically in the areas identified below.

Hopefully, some of us learned the 'accuracy' of mass media recently ------ sometimes they are just wrong. Reason, I think so!

However, once we debunk NDEs, then we definitely need to debunk mediums, channelers, remote viewers, hypnotists that regress people to past lives and the in-between life, etc. Then all those people with past life memories/stories, 'spirit' encounters, etc. etc. All of these areas indicate there is an after life and have documented their 'stories, experiences, etc.' on the net and in books.

I agree again that 'none' of the areas, articles or books above 'indicating an after life' are accepted by 'science for the masses' either.

Not everyone can or wants to wait for 'mainstream science' or anyone else to validate 'answers to their questions or personal experiences' when it is questionable how much money anyone is throwing at these type of issues for release to the masses!

For Kolob Above ---

As far as evidence they are all 'evidence' just not very good evidence or acceptable by science ---- I get that.

That is why I attempt to 'experience' things myself so I don't have depend on others. I have had amazing experiences on over 20 remote viewing targets (sensing thoughts, feelings, words, landscapes, etc.) but it is was not 100% (for me I estimated 50-70% and 2, right on because I had seen the pictures before so after I got so many perceptions the pics came up in my mind).

Most RV sites I visit do not seem that interested in proving it scientifically they just do projects that the public or other RVrs may be interested in. Of course they called the election but I didn't get into this stuff again until after November so I didn't post that. They post 'future news' on a monthly basis however they normally don't know 'where' it will occur. If they come up with something 'unique and interesting' I may post it for information and discussion then we can see the results the next month.

Even though most people do not associate RV with proving life after death. There actually has been some work (JFK death, and others) where they 'experience' the feelings of JFK (soul or spirit) as he was going to the other side. Interesting stuff!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 01:03PM by spiritist.

Call in the Faith Brigade.

Amen and amen.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 03:19PM by steve benson.

SB said: "Call in the Faith Brigade.

Amen and amen."
________________________________________

Faith Really??????? You obviously have a reading issue that can hopefully be worked out over time!

I really don't want to argue but as I look over all the replies to this thread ------- everyone but 'me' is relying on 'someone else/some researcher/book/opinion, etc. etc.' for their knowledge about the after life and the validity of NDEs.

If that isn't the 'faith brigade' I don't know what is!

I am one of the few that am talking about 'personal experiences'. This is the way I learned what I know about God, after life, past lives, etc. etc. including how to identify a 'possible' NDE from one that is not in line with common things people 'experience' after death. I gained this knowledge not through books, NDE experience, but personal 'experiences' using a variety of psychic, medium, RV, spirit communication, etc. experiences.

You can call me delusional or mistaken how I interpreted my experiences but to infer I am relying on 'faith' is clearly delusional on your part!

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can call me delusional or mistaken how I
> interpreted my experiences but to infer I am
> relying on 'faith' is clearly delusional on your
> part!

What you typically do is take one thing and assume it "means" or "causes" something else. With no evidence that it does.
I don't mean that as an insult -- only as an observation.

NDE's, for example: people reporting them is evidence that people report having some kind of "experience." It's not evidence that they actually HAD such an "experience," or that the "experience" involves spirits, afterlives, other dimensions, or anything of the sort. And rather than look at all the possible explanations for them, some of which have experimental evidence to back them up, you assume they're "supernatural," when no evidence backs that up.

You are, of course, free to do so. I'm not saying you can't. Just that doing so isn't rational, reasonable, or backed by evidence. If doing so makes you happy, and gives you some kind of comfort, great. Enjoy. Doing so IS, however, "faith-based."

Kolob stated: What you typically do is take one thing and assume it "means" or "causes" something else. With no evidence that it does.
I don't mean that as an insult -- only as an observation.
______________________________________________________

Let's not talk about 'what I typically do' ---- lets talk about the issue at hand or what I actually did or said in this thread!!

What did I do or say for you to make that comment??????

Talk about someone that needs a life!

evidence that empirically can explain – – if not completely, at least substantively--what you are experiencing.

But you're apparently not interested in that real-world approach because your personal feelings are more important to you than documentable data whose scope expands way beyond your own little corner in your own litte world.

Steve continues his 'faith filled' rant! But you're apparently not interested in that real-world approach because your personal feelings are more important to you than documentable data whose scope expands way beyond your own little corner in your own litte world.
_______________________________________________

Who said 'personal feelings' ---- my experiences were certainly not just feelings!!!

By the way, I am very skeptical of some after life experiences. I have known 2 people personally. One, an atheist, had 'very possibly' and out of body experience versus my relative mentioned things that I would 'challenge' and would have to ask him where that info came from his observation or spirit statements as it was off big time from mine and most experiences of the after life.

Again, if you want to believe something on pure 'faith' of another 'human' do it. Just understand there are thousands of people who have 'experiences not just feelings' that they base key beliefs on.

Oh, you failed to mention what personal 'experiences' you have had to support there is no after life, no god, etc. The books you cite certainly don't support that! I didn't see any 'empirical evidence' that says my beliefs based on actual experiences are clearly wrong.

If you think what you posted supports no after life ---- that is pure 'belief and faith' on your part not 'empirical evidence'!

Amen!

which convincingly exposes this NDE frenzy as being full of sh*t.

I'm given you a taste of real-world science in this thread. I'm sorry that your "spirit" helpers can't help you decipher it.

You would be more convincing if you proved you could read English!!!!!

I find the stuff interesting. I can see that it could be that way or not. If these things are not talked about and science never further researched nothing more can ever be learned. A lot of people love to slam doors on ideas without fully exploring them like Steve and Kolob. The world is full of small minded people that think they are smart. See Dunning Kruger Effect.

Laughing out loud.

They go straight to sources that fit their preexisting world view then claim they do no have an ideology as an atheist. Atheist claim the high ground of "logic" but never fully or globally use it. Why are your views and responses so easily anticipatable on topics which are UNKNOWNS? Its too damn funny, if it wasn't so sad. The response is so anticipated, the level of probability of my dog showing up when I scoop food in his bowl is about the same.

The problem with NDEs and pseudo science is the group of nut jobs who try to recreate NDEs by trying to kill but not kill their patients/test subjects.

When will the faithers learn that if God wanted this stuff to be proven he would had made it discoverable?

Talk about grasping at straws (which, by the way, are scientifically-confirmed stalks of grain that are permanently DEAD and, therefore, cannot breathe life into the gasping arguments of the NDE pom-pom squad).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 03:48PM by steve benson.

4,000,000+ LDS priesthood blessing experiences, for anyone interested.

but...don't more anecdotal experiences mean something is more likely to be true?
Well, doesn't it????!!!

So the priesthood must be true, then, right?

:)

I was a Los Angeles County paramedic for a number of years. I saw death daily. Let me tell you dead is dead, is dead. I never saw anyone come back from being dead. If a persons heart stops for a period of time but through medical intervention starts beating again they were never dead. There is no such thing as being near death. you are either alive or dead period. Emotional experiences are not facts or evidence for life after death. Now if a person is declared dead and hours after the deceleration has been made and cell degeneration is well under way especially outside in the summer heat and that person just comes back to life and is perfectly healthy psychically and mentally and tells me of life after death that person holds credibility in my opinion especially if the event can be documented absolutely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 08:13PM by 64monkey.

I just love these momentsry, but welcome, flashes of educated input



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 10:22PM by steve benson.

The following experience may be considered as a "branch" of NDE.

My activity with those who have "passed-on", often comes through visits from those on the "other side", when I am awakened from sleep by them. Most brought to mind by this topic is a "visit" from my father-in-law (a very gentle, good man).

He also was a very intelligent person in life, and was a "non-believer". To him, death was the end of life, period.

After his death he "appeared" to me by "awakening" me from sleep. He had come to tell me that life did "still exist" in the world in which he lived, and that his learning process was gradual. He took walks along pleasant park-like surroundings.

One of the most vivid things he told me was that the woman he was married to in life, and my mother-in-law (who had not treated him well or with respect when I knew them), now wanted to be "married" to him there, but he wanted no part of her. (He was, however, acquainted with other females much more pleasant to be with.)

A drama of the mind? I don't think so.

Once, (after his death), he came to sit next to my husband (his son), in our living room, just to be present with him for awhile. My husband, who told me this, is far from the imaginary-type of man regarding such things.

Just because some experiences don't happen to everyone, doesn't mean they are bogus.

Out of courtesy I re-read both Steve Benson's posts and the posts of Ificanhitokolob, and one thing becomes glaringly obvious. They are scared stiff of death, just incase they have got it wrong. They are fighting against something they cannot prove until they draw their last breath.

This is not stated as a confrontation nor on a religious basis, but as a concept that ***just because I have not adopted this line of reasoning for promoting NDEs-- I feel to tell you that no person on the planet can challenge my reasoning and must believe every fact as I see it .

I suggest you read the book ""Hello from Heaven"" -- Doctors Police and people of professional status give their accounts of NDEs ..


JB

Oh good grief. They just have a low tolerance for woo-sh!t.

Let me know when those accounts are in Scientific American, then we'll talk. I'm not saying they will or will not be, but for now there are plenty of more plausible explanations.

A lot of these thoughts are coming from "real" academics, who have the balls to put out new ideas. Every "new" idea or explanation starts off as paranormal until it becomes normal.
Tesla started off being called a quack, but we just about every modern electrical technology was pioneered by him. You would have been one of the clergy that shackled Galileo.

You have heart burn because science is studying things that once were considered "church". Like in reality there is any distinction in what is, the only distinction is in your mind. What happens when physics starts to point toward the likelihood of some sort of God of creation? Currently, Robert Lanza, Hans Moravec, Nick Bostrom, Brian Whitworth, Marcus Arvan, and Thomas Campbell are hypothesizing consciousness as the unifying field. These people are not "quacks". More and more people are looking to this as an explanation because it closes the circle in physics.

Please don't try to take credit for supposedly scaring me stiff. That would be the LAST reaction I would have to your magic-mugged meanderings. I find them to be highly uninformed, simplistically shallow, deeply averse to critical thinking and scientific reasoning, plus full of lingering personal fear on your part.

It's called projection.

Your fairytale fireside testimonials don't move me in the least, nor do they frighten or worry me in any way. There are the saccharine stuff of what Church youth camps are made. So, stop trying to take a bow where none is deserved.

The fright that's going on is on your end because you're trying to secretly convince yourself that I'm the one who's "scared stiff" so that you don't have to deal with your own doubts that science is helping to feed.

It's your own version of being a closet-doubting TBM.

Try to get real. You can do it. Just admit that you're spooked.

And, for the record, there are no such thing as spooks.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 11:25PM by steve benson.

I notice these 'paranormal' threads get a lot of comments.

I had time tonight to go back and forth a little ---- well maybe too much. No offense of course.

I just wonder if these type of subjects help people 'recover' from Mormonism??

I don't believe anyone changes their belief system based on these threads but if it makes people's world a little larger and lets people express their opinions and emotions maybe it helps.

My 2 cents!

You have no idea whether or not people change their beliefs systems based on these threads.

To find out, consider conducting a credible survey.

You know, a scientific one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 11:37PM by steve benson.

Dagny -- Lets see where scientific America was when instead of a letter taking 6 days to travel to Europe it now take 3 seconds by e-mail or messaging. Of man walking on the moon -- something developed in my lifetime -- Science always states that things are impossible **UNTIL THEY HAPPEN**

Eventually science may catch up with conceptual science -- What about the cold war ""remote viewing corps of the US Army"". There are numerous concepts available nowadays that were unheard of 30 years ago ..

I think that more will be revealed when people do not close their mind to the possibility of an after life !!!

To use the Steve like statement in reverse --
**You can take a humanist to eternity but you can't open his eyes if he keep them shut**

JB

And don't give me your mumbo-jumbo magical mystery miracle mantra.

Give me the methodology, the math and the mechanics. You know (or do you?). Produce some actual meat.

In other words, put up or shut up. Mother Goose will only get you so far



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 11:40PM by steve benson.

You have to admit for someone with a 'total lack of awareness/close mindedness' --- he is funny!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2016 11:49PM by spiritist.