I just found out one of my husband's formerly TBM, temple-recommend holding relatives was arrested on New Year's Eve for DUI. I knew she wasn't attending church much but last summer she attended another relative's temple wedding. She holds a recommend. Apparently, after her arrest, it came out she's been drinking and attempting to hide the evidence unsuccessfully from her husband and kids.

Already, DH's relatives have started in with the "well, that's what happens when you leave the church" comments. Which is infuriating because she's just semi-inactive and apparently she's active enough to talk her bishop into giving her a recommend just last summer. Also, I left the church 10 years ago and while I have a drink or two a month, I have in no way become Satan's plaything, as seems to be the implication by those sort of comments. I am pretty much the straight-laced person I've always been, except for the occasional drink, the Starbucks app on my phone and a tattoo somewhere none of the relatives can see it.

Most people are pretty much the same when they leave the church. Except for the huge feeling of relief - of being free from the chains. They don't automatically fall into sin, as Mormons teach. And what Mormons see as sin, is often a simple coffee or a tank top. The judgments are unhelpful at best, hurtful more often than not.

Anyway, they are now trying to figure out how to help this relative, realizing that this is more than just one isolated bad choice to drink and drive - she is showing signs of real alcoholism. In fact, any ideas on how to help her would also be appreciated. But I'd really like a response to the next relative that tries to equate leaving the church with utter moral collapse. Help - please!

You should always be suspect of anyone who comes at you with morality judgments. Time and again I have found that these are the very people with the most skeletons in their closets. You can almost hear the bones rattle when they lecture you.

Well, you can remind them that she holds a TR, so she hasn't really left the church. And you can be reasonably certain that if she's exhibiting signs of alcoholism, she was drinking while she was fully active.

Then, remind them that the lockers in the temple changing rooms have actual locks on them. The only possible reason for that is to prevent theft, meaning that there are active, TR-holding Mormons who are outright thieves.

Moral collapses happen within the church. Have they never heard of bishops running off with the RS president?

Utah is known as the Fraud Capital of the USA. Active Mormons and their MLMs are almost always involved. How is that not moral collapse?

Bottom line, you don't have to leave the church to "sin." There are plenty of opportunities for misbehavior within the church, and no shortage of active Mormons who take full advantage of those opportunities.

That lockers and locks thing bothered me in my TBM days. I think what you said was really good. I know it would shut them up a bit to point out that people don't need to leave the church to sin. They aren't so TBM they can't admit that.

Of course, they might just say "You can't judge the church by the people."

Yep, EVERYTHING is about the Church.

I don't know about this. Kevin Garn was arrested for DUI whilst serving as the bishop of a student ward in Salt Lake City in 2006. So... He was able to use his position to keep it quiet, and continued to serve as bishop.

Conversely, I have left the church and have never driven under the influence of alcohol.

My TBM sister was always very active, always held a recommend, and every week went to the temple and "did temple work for the dead."

She was also an alcoholic, and severely depressed. Several suicide attempts, sessions at AA, psychotherapy, etc. Nothing helped.

Her TBM husband's solution for her: she should just stop drinking. All she had to do was "obey the commandments!"

(One therapist concluded that the husband was her main problem, so hubby fired that therapist.)

Im just spouting second hand reports here...but Garn also received a standing ovation in the legislature for getting jiggity with an underage girl in his hot tub after the true order of celestial joe wifery...or was i misinformed...in the church it seems that last name garners much unearned respect...when that handicapped boy in idaho was abused a few months ago the ringleader couldnt possibly have his life ruined by a criminal record...but criminal is the only way to describe what they did to that poor boy...just guessing he had the right last name too...id also guess the waste of hide lost zero sleep over the grief hed inflicted...sociopaths dont happen over night...im fairly certain hed been cut lots of slack his entire privileged life...no you can $&@ around just fine while a member in good standing...like an unused condom in your wallet a temple reccomend is there for protection against unplanned stupidity

Garn had a naked-in-a-hot-tub thing with a minor female. When the girl threatened to tell, Garn's bishop intervened on his behalf and helped Garn work out a monetary settlement. The girl came back later, anyway, for another infusion of money, as I recall, and that's how he lost his political office. When he had to resign, his many LDS legislator friends gave him a standing ovation. When you're church royalty, you get away with everything.

I think a DUI could happen to anyone, especially a new drinker who has not received adequate guidance about drinking and driving.

What are the signs that indicate alcoholism? I would not consider one DUI to be a sign in and of itself.

I would remind the member trying to convince you of their superiority (morally), of these facts that I've seen, and I only left the church last year.

1. It's funny that the church thinks they have cornered the market on morality. The most moral, upright, good centered people I have ever met in my life were NOT members of the Mormon church. They were just genuine good people, not ones trying to fake it for Mormonism.

2. Saying that people that leave, or are outside, the church are morally incompetent would be putting a label on the other 7 billion people in the world outside the bonds of Mormonism. There are kinder, wiser and better people everywhere--and they don't belong to TSCC.

3. If people do "morally collapse" when they leave, there needs to be other avenues explored: like the fact that when you leave, you are often ridiculed, forgotten, labeled, outcast, etc. When you belong to a society like TSCC, a cult-like society, you would expect those reactions. But when you are born and raised in that cult, and you leave, it's going to cause severe emotional distress. That often leads to a way to cope; i.e. alcohol, etc. Maybe if an arrogant, cognitive dissonance addicted maniac could pull their head out of their ass long enough, they could see that other things are in play.

For every 1 person that leaves tscc and turns to drugs and or over indulgent in drinking, there are a 1,000+ that don't. Sure some end up in very bad situations but no one (tscc members) every think that the reason they end up that way is because of TSCC. because of the life of hell they have endured from members, parents, spouses, bishops and other leaders. Not being good enough, Kids not perfect, guilt, shame and the endless judgement a member is under. It's a wonder the whole church is not drunk everyday. Utah have the highest antidepressants prescriptions in the country is very telling.

But nooooo, that not it. It's because you left the church.

If you leave the church and a bus hits you: punishment

If you are active and a bus hits you: a trial because you are chosen

same outcome, but one costs 10% of your income, your mind and happiness.

so-called morality exempts people from kindness it seems...

And this is what happens when you stay in the church...

http://www.inquisitr.com/299316/mormon-church-leader-arrested-in-penis-biting-attack/