I have read many threads on this board describing, rightfully so, much anger on discovering the truth about LDS,Inc. I have been wondering, for no reason I that I can determine, if those of you who were BIC, or those who were converts, harbor the most anger toward tscc?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 07:48PM by cinda.

I would *guess* that the convert, when he/she discovers the scam, is more angry. I was BIC and look back, thinking, "When you are raised this way you don't have much of a chance to determine if it's correct or not....you just accept it."

I'm just glad I finally figured it out.

Yeah but as a BIC I'm still PO'd about the thousands I lost in tithing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 08:00PM by evergreen.

Hi Cinda, this is a good question. I'll only answer for myself. As an 18 year old convert, I was duped by the church, but there were warning signs from others. Unfortunately, no one had a preponderance of accurate facts that today's internet provides Mormon investigators.

For example, my godfather, hardly a religious man, told me that Joseph Smith got the idea of the Book of Mormon from travel pamphlets. When I asked church leaders, they said he was referring to the Spaulding Manuscript and that there was not evidence of commonality between the two resources.

Another time, a friend mentioned to me that Mormons don't pray to Christ. Although this is technically correct, church leaders just said, we pray to the Father in the name of Christ, we are Christians, too. No one from the church told me that I was not to pray to Jesus; I would hear about that much later.

My father's response to Mormonism was that Mormons were not popular people and to consider another church. But, I had high regard for most Mormons in knew in high school.

My Mom went bat-shit crazy and told me I was no longer her son, I was a Mormon! Of course, the church was there to tell me I was special. My Mom was also a vicious alcoholic and I figured that any church that abstained from alcohol was pretty decent.

So, ultimately, my older self realized that as an 18 year old I longed to be a part of something greater than myself. I was highly idealistic and wanted to be a good person. I was also pretty naive and innocent. I have forgiven myself for my youthful innocence. My anger at Mormonism is that the church preys on young people, people going through life transitions, and it is dishonest about its history, doctrines, and institutionalized racism, sexism, and homophobia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 08:27PM by BYU Boner.

BYU Boner Wrote:
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> My father's response to Mormonism was that Mormons
> were not popular people and to consider another
> church.

Ha, ha, ha! That's one of the best 'Reasons Not to Join LDS' I've ever heard. All about who you know. :-)

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My Mom went bat-shit crazy and told me I was no
> longer her son, I was a Mormon! Of course, the
> church was there to tell me I was special. My Mom
> was also a vicious alcoholic and I figured that
> any church that abstained from alcohol was pretty
> decent.

Change the word "son" to daughter and this could have been my vicious alcoholic mother too.

From the moment I announced that I was going to become a mormon my mother started following me out the gate as I left for work each morning. At the top of her voice she would then start screaming out that I was nothing but a slut, a filthy effing c---t who was going to be baptised naked and God only knows what else I'd be up to with all the men present. (My language here is much more restrained than hers was). This humiliating and would be shaming behaviour continued for three months until I turned 21 and became a legal adult. (This was waaaay back in the early 60's).

In the meantime, my boyfriend gave me an ultimatum, he didn't want a mormon for a wife so it was TSCC or him.

The fake friendships and love bombing I received as an investigator especially whilst I was in an extremely fragile emotional state managed to keep me on the track for baptism.

To cut a long story short, I tried very hard to live up to TSCC standards but never, ever felt good enough and never, ever fully believed. Eventually I was excommunicated for becoming pregnant before my divorce was finalised.

I accepted this at the time because of my non-adherance to church standards. However - a year later this acceptance turned to anger when I discovered that the Branch President who initiated ex-communication proceedings against me was during the same period of time sexually molesting two of his daughters. When this leaked out no legal action was ever taken because of threats made to his wife and he retained the Branch Presidency for several more years.

I have learned far more about TSCC since being out than I ever learned whilst a member. Every new thing I learn makes me angrier. It really is nothing but a massive real estate corporation with a philosophy of preying on the vulnerable and an attitude of "Don't do as I do, do as I say, pray, pay and obey, especially if you are a woman".

I don't know which group might be angrier, but as a convert, the Book of Abraham really made me angry.

When the missionaries taught me, they presented that book as scripture, talking about the scrolls and how they were translated.

What they didn't tell me was that the scrolls had been found and that they knew darn well that they had nothing whatsoever to do with Abraham.

If I'd known this, I would not have been baptized. So yeah, more than a little angry at being lied to.

I would say that BICs like myself are probably more angry at their parents for forcing it on them. Converts might be more angry at tssc as a whole and whoever lured them in...mishies, friends, etc.

As a convert I had no one to blame but myself. Thats what made me angry.

Yes, this.
I converted at 20 and feel such a twat. I don't have anyone else to blame.
I'm angry about things such as the BoA, because it's provably false. The missionary discussions, new member discussions and gospel principles tell you nothing!

Having said that, after 25 years, I have slipped back into secular life quite easily. I had much less to lose than many BIC.

I feel the same way, as I didn't leave my ex before we married when he pressured me to convert. On the other hand, at least I didn't have children with him, so I was able to cut him completely out of my life. The only "sin" I admitted to during that interview was that I was not a virgin and left it at that. The person doing the interview didn't ask about my ex, and I certainly wasn't going to spill the beans, as we were engaged at the time of my baptism.

As a convert, I was able to go back into secular life, and that included drinking coffee openly instead of having to hide it from my ex or others in the cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 11:29PM by adoylelb.

I can only speak from the BIC side of things. But yeah, the anger is massive and enduring.

I could be wrong, but I think the converts have a little easier time of it. They are a little more free to pick and choose what parts of Mormonism they're going to subscribe to. I think they can see the parts that just don't make sense and feel free to disregard them. When you're BIC, you get the whole thing and never realize that there are alternative lifestyles or learn to separate the good parts of Mormonism from the bullshit (and yes, there were good parts.)

I mean, I knew lots of converts that continued to drink coffee, drink socially, committed the occasional sexual indiscretion yet had the good sense to not spill their guts to the bishop, etc.

So when you're BIC and you find out that your entire life has been based on massive lie and that everyone that is near and dear to you is a cult follower, it's devastating. I don't think a convert is ever in quite that deep. (Which is why you will never ever see a convert serving in the quorum of the 12.) I've been out about 3.5 years at this point. The anger is still very palpable.

As a BIC, the anger for me was in feeling powerless over the years of brainwashing and indoctrination starting at an early age. It was as formative as grammar school. Most of my grade school teachers were LDS. My classmates, family, etc. We lived it 24/7.

It's impossible to separate that from the psyche and identity, even after all these years. It will always be a part of who I am, at least for this lifetime.

It wasn't all bad. I had some excellent teachers and mentors growing up. My family, like the church, was dysfunctional. But we lived inside a bubble, like a cocoon. It felt safe, dysfunction and all.

Anger's a phase to be worked through. Not to get mired down in.

As part of the grief process, it's one stage of the journey. Being able to understand the grief process with its stages helps to be able to see it for what it is, so not to get stuck in it.

When I started to peel back the layers I was shocked more than I was angry. One of the post frustrating things was finding out factual historical issues and trying to discuss them with other people. What blew me away most was people's inability to openly discuss things. What angered me the most was people's inability to discuss facts. It boggled my mind that people I thought were seemingly intelligent you turn such a blind eye. I was angered most by the closed mindedness.

After that I wanted to know WHY and HOW people act this way. I also wondered what other stupid crap which I take as fact maybe falsely constructing my worldview. What else am I not taking into consideration...?

Even through finding out Mormonism was smoke and mirrors it served as an intellectual wake up call to really explore and research various subjects. When I was in school, I just jumped through hoops and never curiosity was never sparked . Being "duped" lit the spark of curiosity.

One of my lawyer friends said it best, "Law school taught me the law, thinking my way out of Mormonism taught me how to really think."

I think psychologically there are two directions people go when their worldview, carpet, gets pulled out from under them. 1) Run around in the dark trying to find another carpet to stand on, another set of beliefs or ideology. 2) Proceed with an open curious mind, wanting to understand how various carpets (worldviews) are made, who made it, who put it there, who's making money from the carpet etc.

Choosing #1 you don't have to think much and you get more company. Choosing #2 will be intellectually more rewarding, but very few people take that path.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

-Robert Frost

As a convert, I can tell you that I am pretty damned angry! I converted at 15 and was baptized at 16,having fallen for it all hook, line, and sinker. I was in for 40 years before I finally did deep research and found out what a fraud it all was. I have been out for two years now, and my husband has also left. But I keep kicking myself that I hadn't researched earlier! Oh, I went to apologetic sites for comfort after running into negative LDS information. But I would not search further;the idea that Mormonism was not true terrified me out of my wits. I had based serious life decisions on faith that it was true. Some of those decisions had led to disasters, but I had let General Authorities and the Ensign magazine convince me that they were my own fault.

Finally I came to realize that Brigham Young was truly a bastard, but I still was sure that Joseph Smith had to be a prophet of God! I became a follower of Rock Waterman. That helped for a while, but I finally ran into too much negative information about Joseph Smith. It was deep research time. I have been enraged for two years, especially at myself for taking so long to "get it". I am fortunate that I don't have any extended family in Mormonism like BICs do. But I am still infuriated.

I think the question itself of who is angrier is a black and white supposition.

I think it's an individual thing. I was a convert. But this was before DNA or the BoA crap.

I was out in 12-13 years. I wasnt particularly angry simply because I didn't feel I was duped and then left. I left because I no longer believed.

The duped part of it didn't come to light until years later when technology showed all the rotten meat.

I was long out by then.

I will forever wonder how my mom would have reacted to the "truth" that is out there now. She converted in 1959, 20 years after marrying dad and was ever more zealous than he was.

as a nevermo, i have a real hard time understanding converts. I just can't get it thru my skull.

"We believe that Joseph Smith dug up some golden plates . . . "

That was the end for me. Within the first ten words, they lost me. They probably lost me on the approach. I never pondered the religion. Not from the start. At no point over many years of talking to mormons.

I can only remember thinking it was funny and basically making jokes about it from the word go.

I have no comprehension as to how you could read a newspaper, watch the news, go to middle school - and then decide the mormon church was true. I just don't get it.

thingsithink Wrote:
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> as a nevermo, i have a real hard time
> understanding converts. I just can't get it thru
> my skull.

I was 15. I had adults, who I thought were smarter than me, telling me, "Do you realize how lucky you are to find the true church? Most people go through an entire lifetime and never find it."

I was bullied in school and the Mormon kids didn't bully me. I found a friendly peer group for the first time in my life. I think that had more to do with it than anything else. Also my best friend was baptized 6 months before I was.

"We believe that Joseph Smith dug up some golden plates ..."

I raised an eyebrow and went, "Oh yeah?" I thought they were nuts. But everything else allowed me to gradually put it on a shelf and join those friendly people.

Actually, that does make sense. :)

The only people joining now are those who "really" need something in their life and the Mormons showed up before JWs. Today, if you have a functioning brain and an internet connection converts won't be converting. The only way to get them in is the feeeeeeeeling of community and meaning, the story falls apart pretty quick.

That's great, thingsIthink, to be so smart and all, but I don't find it very helpful to have a nevermo come on here and say, "Geez, I can't believe how Stupid you guys were!" Saying that to myself is sufficient.

Like Greyfort, I was a gullible 15 year old in the 1970s. I was living with an alcoholic father and was sucked in by the love-bombing from the cool LDS kids. That's how it works.

I can tell you BIC without doubt there is so much anger in me untouched its ridiculous I see two counselors to get it out but venting on here about whatever seems to help too surprisingly

It might be simplifying things too much to try to group it into converts and BIC. Every individual has their own experiences. Sometimes I have thought that if I were a convert I could have gone back to whatever church I had once belonged to. I might have had family to go back to who maybe tried to tell me that becoming Mormon was a mistake. I wouldn't have to deal with the fact that many of my ancestors were Mormon, some going back to Missouri and Nauvoo and that Mormonism is a part of my history whether I like it or not. One thing that has happened to me over time is that the anger has subsided for the most part. Sometimes things trigger it again but it doesn't last as long now. I can't discuss some things with my siblings and mother and extended family cousins etc. but it doesn't matter as much to me as time passes.

The TSCC divides someone from their most important relationships either after baptisms (convert) or after leaving the fold (BIC). Either way there is pain o' plenty to go round.

At least in the case of the coverts, many have family and old friends there to welcome you back to your senses.

Why compare at all? Every case is different and spreading the idea that because you were a convert or were born in the church that you should or shouldn't be as angry as the other isn't helpful to recovery. It gives the idea that one person's feelings are more valid than another's, which isn't the case.

Each person's exit is their own.

Cinda's a never Mo who happens to reside in the Morridor. Being as she's surrounded on all sides by Mormania, she likely is seeking to understand the whole motley crew of us!

I willingly converted to LDS as a thinking, sane, college-educated, been-around-the-block-a-few-times ADULT.

Angry? You bet. At myself. That pounding sound you hear is me banging my dead against a concrete wall.

Let's compare convert me with my BIC son. My son is far, far angrier than me. We are both non-conformists - willing to go our own way.

The Church never represented conformity to me: I was always the lone Mormon guy in almost any situation. I always kept within myself the knowledge that I chose the Church. I set the terms. By the end, I was willing to let it go.

My son never had that option. He arrived in the midst of religious expectations for him from the Church and his mother. His exit was rebellious and destructive. Rather than bettering himself to grow beyond the Church, he literally destroyed himself until he could become free.

Agency is fundamental to humanity. My son felt that his only recourse to exercise agency was to rebel ever more spectacularly until the Church could finally leave him alone.