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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
1--She's stupid.
2--She's not brave and it wasn't in public. There was no one there to see/challenge her. She posted the video after the fact.
3--Those people are crazy and misogynist. What was she trying to accomplish? She ain't gonna change that culture. Refer to #1.
2--She's not brave and it wasn't in public. There was no one there to see/challenge her. She posted the video after the fact.
3--Those people are crazy and misogynist. What was she trying to accomplish? She ain't gonna change that culture. Refer to #1.
CateS Wrote:
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> 1--She's stupid.
The video is being seen and discussed worldwide---and, therefore, from a civil rights standpoint is the opposite of "stupid."
> 2--She's not brave...
Yes, she IS brave. She has relatives and friends, and some of those relatives of hers, and relatives of friends of hers, have connections to the Saudi religious police. She can be identified, found guilty of transgressing the religious laws, and punished (caning, and/or incarceration).
>...and it wasn't in public.
Irrelevant. In Iran right now, women are going out to the countryside or wherever and are videoing themselves taking off their hijabs and then joyously running and dancing through the natural beauties of Iran with their hair free and flowing. The videos are then being uploaded to You Tube and other, similar, social sites, and are also being seen around the world. Each of these women is also subject to being identified, arrested, and legally punished. Being "in public" is not necessary to being globally powerful.
> There was no one there to see/challenge her.
So what??? The video is being seen and discussed GLOBALLY (including right here on RfM). She made her point, and if there are legal consequences for her, she will be legally punished for her actions, and knowing all this, she still DID it.
>She posted the video after the fact.
So what??? She is achieving GLOBAL attention for the cause of women's rights in Saudi Arabia.
>Those people are crazy and misogynist.
Many of them are. Overcoming their religious insanity and misogyny is the underlying problem she is addressing.
>What was she trying to accomplish?
Global attention to cultural and religious misogyny in Saudi Arabia (and several other, similar, places).
>She ain't gonna change that culture.
I'm sure glad you were not around for the beginnings of our American Civil Rights Movement! ;) You know, that time in our American history when people did astoundingly important things like refusing to change their seat in a bus...or sitting down at a lunch counter for a Coke...or when public school students (age six and up) walked into their schools surrounded by a few hundred idiots spitting and screaming at them.
This kind of what amounts to political action DOES change cultures...and the history of the USA is proof positive that, at least sometimes, these kinds of practical actions WORK.
>Refer to #1.
#1: "She's stupid."
No, she is courageous, she knows the history (much of it American) of positive social change, and she is willing to put herself on the line for what is right.
She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got murdered in Mississippi, or those countless unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries, being lynched in the pursuit of social and legal justice.
There is a difference between "stupid" and "brave."
THIS, in HER culture, counts for "brave."
She deserves credit for her accomplishment.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 08:21AM by Tevai.
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> 1--She's stupid.
The video is being seen and discussed worldwide---and, therefore, from a civil rights standpoint is the opposite of "stupid."
> 2--She's not brave...
Yes, she IS brave. She has relatives and friends, and some of those relatives of hers, and relatives of friends of hers, have connections to the Saudi religious police. She can be identified, found guilty of transgressing the religious laws, and punished (caning, and/or incarceration).
>...and it wasn't in public.
Irrelevant. In Iran right now, women are going out to the countryside or wherever and are videoing themselves taking off their hijabs and then joyously running and dancing through the natural beauties of Iran with their hair free and flowing. The videos are then being uploaded to You Tube and other, similar, social sites, and are also being seen around the world. Each of these women is also subject to being identified, arrested, and legally punished. Being "in public" is not necessary to being globally powerful.
> There was no one there to see/challenge her.
So what??? The video is being seen and discussed GLOBALLY (including right here on RfM). She made her point, and if there are legal consequences for her, she will be legally punished for her actions, and knowing all this, she still DID it.
>She posted the video after the fact.
So what??? She is achieving GLOBAL attention for the cause of women's rights in Saudi Arabia.
>Those people are crazy and misogynist.
Many of them are. Overcoming their religious insanity and misogyny is the underlying problem she is addressing.
>What was she trying to accomplish?
Global attention to cultural and religious misogyny in Saudi Arabia (and several other, similar, places).
>She ain't gonna change that culture.
I'm sure glad you were not around for the beginnings of our American Civil Rights Movement! ;) You know, that time in our American history when people did astoundingly important things like refusing to change their seat in a bus...or sitting down at a lunch counter for a Coke...or when public school students (age six and up) walked into their schools surrounded by a few hundred idiots spitting and screaming at them.
This kind of what amounts to political action DOES change cultures...and the history of the USA is proof positive that, at least sometimes, these kinds of practical actions WORK.
>Refer to #1.
#1: "She's stupid."
No, she is courageous, she knows the history (much of it American) of positive social change, and she is willing to put herself on the line for what is right.
She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got murdered in Mississippi, or those countless unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries, being lynched in the pursuit of social and legal justice.
There is a difference between "stupid" and "brave."
THIS, in HER culture, counts for "brave."
She deserves credit for her accomplishment.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 08:21AM by Tevai.
Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or
> Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got
> murdered in Mississippi, or those countless
> unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries, being
> lynched in the pursuit of social and legal
> justice.
>
These three you cite, engaged in their protests in public, risking and suffering immediate repercussions, including violent ones and were totally different from what this woman did.
I was way too harsh on her. I wouldn't want to be stoned to death, either. But I don't put her behavior on the same level as the three you cite and not really courageous.
I can easily see how her behavior would be seen as flagrantly disrespectful and off-putting to the culture. She's literally prancing through those abandoned streets. Maybe that is a good thing.
Who is she? Is she a local woman or a visitor to SA? If she's local, much bigger deal as she can and probably will be held accountable.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or
> Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got
> murdered in Mississippi, or those countless
> unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries, being
> lynched in the pursuit of social and legal
> justice.
>
These three you cite, engaged in their protests in public, risking and suffering immediate repercussions, including violent ones and were totally different from what this woman did.
I was way too harsh on her. I wouldn't want to be stoned to death, either. But I don't put her behavior on the same level as the three you cite and not really courageous.
I can easily see how her behavior would be seen as flagrantly disrespectful and off-putting to the culture. She's literally prancing through those abandoned streets. Maybe that is a good thing.
Who is she? Is she a local woman or a visitor to SA? If she's local, much bigger deal as she can and probably will be held accountable.
CateS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or
> > Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got
> > murdered in Mississippi, or those countless
> > unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries,
> being
> > lynched in the pursuit of social and legal
> > justice.
> >
>
> These three you cite, engaged in their protests in
> public, risking and suffering immediate
> repercussions, including violent ones and were
> totally different from what this woman did.
No...not different at all.
In Saudi Arabia, the Religious Police are part of the highest level of power (in general), they have ENORMOUS legal power over the general public, and the punishments they have the power to enforce include caning (which can be incredibly destructive) and incarceration. They have the power to destroy people's bodies, and their psyches, and their families in any case where a given person does not adhere to their fiats.
> I was way too harsh on her. I wouldn't want to be
> stoned to death, either.
Thank you for saying this. :)
> But I don't put her
> behavior on the same level as the three you cite
> and not really courageous.
Imagine yourself as HER. Imagine getting the idea, and then carrying out that idea, when you KNEW what the potential consequences might be (not only to YOU, but potentially to your family members as well). I cannot see how you cannot call this "courage." This is a 21st-century DEFINITION of "courage" (Saudi Arabian-style).
> I can easily see how her behavior would be seen as
> flagrantly disrespectful and off-putting to the
> culture.
This is mostly beside the point. What she is doing is ILLEGAL.
> She's literally prancing through those
> abandoned streets. Maybe that is a good thing.
In this instance, Yes!!! Just as good a thing as a legally-defined "non-white" person sitting on a "White"-designated park bench in most any Deep South state in the 1950s...or a white person sitting on a "Colored"-designated park bench---either way, it is an act to overturn the status quo.
What this woman did is, legally and politically (and from the perspective of political action), the SAME THING.
> Who is she? Is she a local woman or a visitor to
> SA? If she's local, much bigger deal as she can
> and probably will be held accountable.
I don't know. I would assume she is local, but this is my assumption only.
She is pushing the boundaries.
(By Saudi law, women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, but in certain areas of the peninsula, women DO drive---and in those areas, male authority figures generally look the other way. Because SOME Saudi women are, effectively, legally "allowed" to drive, there has been (for some while now) a "pushing the boundaries" kind of cooperative action, to VERY gradually include more and more Saudi women in the "permitted" group. It is often an extremely slow process, and the increments may appear miniscule to outsiders, but in Saudi terms, every new woman who is "allowed" to drive without overt legal push-back is a victory. Something like this, I think, is what is happening here with this young woman. If she does this in a deserted area, within city walls, then the next step, taken by another woman, may possibly take place a few feet OUTSIDE of walls. Those few feet of difference, in Saudi terms, can count for a very great deal in the broad picture.)
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > She is no more stupid than Rosa Parks, or
> > Elizabeth Eckford, or the three guys that got
> > murdered in Mississippi, or those countless
> > unknowns that wound up, for a few centuries,
> being
> > lynched in the pursuit of social and legal
> > justice.
> >
>
> These three you cite, engaged in their protests in
> public, risking and suffering immediate
> repercussions, including violent ones and were
> totally different from what this woman did.
No...not different at all.
In Saudi Arabia, the Religious Police are part of the highest level of power (in general), they have ENORMOUS legal power over the general public, and the punishments they have the power to enforce include caning (which can be incredibly destructive) and incarceration. They have the power to destroy people's bodies, and their psyches, and their families in any case where a given person does not adhere to their fiats.
> I was way too harsh on her. I wouldn't want to be
> stoned to death, either.
Thank you for saying this. :)
> But I don't put her
> behavior on the same level as the three you cite
> and not really courageous.
Imagine yourself as HER. Imagine getting the idea, and then carrying out that idea, when you KNEW what the potential consequences might be (not only to YOU, but potentially to your family members as well). I cannot see how you cannot call this "courage." This is a 21st-century DEFINITION of "courage" (Saudi Arabian-style).
> I can easily see how her behavior would be seen as
> flagrantly disrespectful and off-putting to the
> culture.
This is mostly beside the point. What she is doing is ILLEGAL.
> She's literally prancing through those
> abandoned streets. Maybe that is a good thing.
In this instance, Yes!!! Just as good a thing as a legally-defined "non-white" person sitting on a "White"-designated park bench in most any Deep South state in the 1950s...or a white person sitting on a "Colored"-designated park bench---either way, it is an act to overturn the status quo.
What this woman did is, legally and politically (and from the perspective of political action), the SAME THING.
> Who is she? Is she a local woman or a visitor to
> SA? If she's local, much bigger deal as she can
> and probably will be held accountable.
I don't know. I would assume she is local, but this is my assumption only.
She is pushing the boundaries.
(By Saudi law, women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, but in certain areas of the peninsula, women DO drive---and in those areas, male authority figures generally look the other way. Because SOME Saudi women are, effectively, legally "allowed" to drive, there has been (for some while now) a "pushing the boundaries" kind of cooperative action, to VERY gradually include more and more Saudi women in the "permitted" group. It is often an extremely slow process, and the increments may appear miniscule to outsiders, but in Saudi terms, every new woman who is "allowed" to drive without overt legal push-back is a victory. Something like this, I think, is what is happening here with this young woman. If she does this in a deserted area, within city walls, then the next step, taken by another woman, may possibly take place a few feet OUTSIDE of walls. Those few feet of difference, in Saudi terms, can count for a very great deal in the broad picture.)
Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman were murdered for getting involved in civil rights in the South.
Rosa Parks and Elizabeth Eckford were black women living in the south at at time when nearly 5000 blacks had been lynched by the KKK (a quasi-official police force) for being "upity." I think those women probably felt very threatened. And rightly so.
We don't know who the woman is but if she was a westerner, it is likely she could not really comprehend the oppression women in Saudi Arabia. If she is local, that certainly adds a different level of danger to her action.
I contend that her behavior, while certainly provocative, was not particularly brave. She engaged in the activity from while the streets were abandoned and then uploaded the video from the safety and anonymity of her living room from what could have been thousands of miles and many weeks from when it originally happened.
I don't need to imagine myself doing the same. I'm a coward. I would never do it. I am a free rider feminist and I do feel badly about that. I just read the Handmaid's Tale. I do appreciate the efforts of the suffragists.
But me being a coward does not mean that by comparison she's automatically brave.
She hasn't identified herself.
I don't see her behavior as particularly brave.
Apparently we see this differently. That's fine.
Rosa Parks and Elizabeth Eckford were black women living in the south at at time when nearly 5000 blacks had been lynched by the KKK (a quasi-official police force) for being "upity." I think those women probably felt very threatened. And rightly so.
We don't know who the woman is but if she was a westerner, it is likely she could not really comprehend the oppression women in Saudi Arabia. If she is local, that certainly adds a different level of danger to her action.
I contend that her behavior, while certainly provocative, was not particularly brave. She engaged in the activity from while the streets were abandoned and then uploaded the video from the safety and anonymity of her living room from what could have been thousands of miles and many weeks from when it originally happened.
I don't need to imagine myself doing the same. I'm a coward. I would never do it. I am a free rider feminist and I do feel badly about that. I just read the Handmaid's Tale. I do appreciate the efforts of the suffragists.
But me being a coward does not mean that by comparison she's automatically brave.
She hasn't identified herself.
I don't see her behavior as particularly brave.
Apparently we see this differently. That's fine.
"They have the power to destroy people's bodies, and their psyches, and their families in any case where a given person does not adhere to their fiats."
Where can BYU's HCO get some of these guys?
Where can BYU's HCO get some of these guys?
bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They have the power to destroy people's bodies,
> and their psyches, and their families in any case
> where a given person does not adhere to their
> fiats."
>
> Where can BYU's HCO get some of these guys?
Although I most certainly do NOT recommend the introduction of Saudi-like religious police to BYU ;) , the first step would probably be to Google: Saudi Arabia religious police, where the intro is:
"The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (abbreviated CPVPV), also informally referred to as Hai'a, is the Saudi Arabian government agency employing "religious police" or Mutaween, to enforce Sharia Law within that Islamic nation."
Lots of different returns, with some interesting history and texture, some "facts---and a few myths," and some human interest stories from different Saudi perspectives.
According the news media (NY Times, plus UK and Australia), the young woman in the video is named "Khulood" (first name)...she is a Saudi...she is referred to as a model...and a warrant has been issued for her arrest.
The returns on this Google search really are interesting, and they deal with contrasting perspectives. There is also a Wikipedia article under the title: "Islamic religious police" which discusses not only Saudi religious police, but Islamic religious police from other, Islamic-oriented, nations.
-------------------------------------------------------
> "They have the power to destroy people's bodies,
> and their psyches, and their families in any case
> where a given person does not adhere to their
> fiats."
>
> Where can BYU's HCO get some of these guys?
Although I most certainly do NOT recommend the introduction of Saudi-like religious police to BYU ;) , the first step would probably be to Google: Saudi Arabia religious police, where the intro is:
"The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (abbreviated CPVPV), also informally referred to as Hai'a, is the Saudi Arabian government agency employing "religious police" or Mutaween, to enforce Sharia Law within that Islamic nation."
Lots of different returns, with some interesting history and texture, some "facts---and a few myths," and some human interest stories from different Saudi perspectives.
According the news media (NY Times, plus UK and Australia), the young woman in the video is named "Khulood" (first name)...she is a Saudi...she is referred to as a model...and a warrant has been issued for her arrest.
The returns on this Google search really are interesting, and they deal with contrasting perspectives. There is also a Wikipedia article under the title: "Islamic religious police" which discusses not only Saudi religious police, but Islamic religious police from other, Islamic-oriented, nations.
If she is Saudi and that is her name then she is likely in danger. I hope she is ok.
CateS Wrote:
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> If she is Saudi and that is her name then she is
> likely in danger. I hope she is ok.
I can't get the articles (three of them) to print, but according to the most recent news reported on www.democraticunderground.com (click on the "Latest Threads" tab near the top of the site), she has been arrested by the Riyadh Police, and her case has been referred to the [relevant] prosecutor.
Maybe with all the world news coverage the Saudi authorities will go easier on her than would have otherwise been the case.
I hope so.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 12:57PM by Tevai.
-------------------------------------------------------
> If she is Saudi and that is her name then she is
> likely in danger. I hope she is ok.
I can't get the articles (three of them) to print, but according to the most recent news reported on www.democraticunderground.com (click on the "Latest Threads" tab near the top of the site), she has been arrested by the Riyadh Police, and her case has been referred to the [relevant] prosecutor.
Maybe with all the world news coverage the Saudi authorities will go easier on her than would have otherwise been the case.
I hope so.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 12:57PM by Tevai.
theocracy in action.
I wonder if they will skirt the issue?
I hope the ability to exchange ideas does the same thing to Islam it did to Mormonism. I admire anyone who takes on the religious insanity and religious mysoginy. Until women can wear a skirt or get free of the prison of the hijab without punishment there is work to be done.
Definitely brave.
Definitely brave.
She was identified and arrested
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-woman-arrested-miniskirt-crop-top-video/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-woman-arrested-miniskirt-crop-top-video/