I didn't know this until I read it yesterday.

I used to think that child slaves being used in the mining of conflict diamonds, and children forced to be soldiers, and child slaves used for chocolate harvesting were the principal problems in [most of] Africa.

Until yesterday, I had no idea that electric cars and child slaves had any relationship to each other at all.

:(



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2017 03:12AM by Tevai.

Let's not make this our problem. The Congo has been a hellhole for decades. The levels of depravity far outweigh what the Belgians ever did there, minus whatever civilization, law and order they brought.

Yes, they sell their resources to "us" but nobody is asking them to chop up babies with machetes in the process. They do this all on their own.

No, I don't want to promote this kind of savagery but the responsibility lies with the Congolese themselves.

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Congo has
> been a hellhole for decades. The levels of
> depravity far outweigh what the Belgians ever did
> there, minus whatever civilization, law and order
> they brought.

It's been a hellhole for well over a century. The Belgians were so bad that even the other colonial powers were shocked by their atrocities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State

Especially read the section on "Mutilation and brutality". Claims that the Belgians brought "civilization, law and order" to the region are laughable. The horrors that this region is famous for are not inherent to the place or people, but were almost certainly inculcated by the Belgian colonial policies and actions.

East Coast Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Claims that the Belgians brought "civilization, law and order" to the region are laughable.

Well, I said "whatever civilization, law and order they brought" which is a relative, not an absolute statement. Let's just say that black and white students were enrolled together in Congolese universities (established by the Belgians) a decade before the first black was allowed into an American university.


> The horrors that this region is famous for are not inherent to the place or people, but were almost certainly inculcated by the Belgian colonial policies and actions.

"This region" being half of Africa. No way the Belgians are responsible for all of that.

Colonial rule in the Congo ended like what, 50, 60 years ago? How long do current militias get a free pass because their grandparents were oppressed?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2017 01:39AM by rt.

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, they sell their resources to "us" but nobody
> is asking them to chop up babies with machetes in
> the process. They do this all on their own.

The more we want the cobalt, the more greedy mine operators will do anything to get it.

So don't buy cobalt from them. Until/if they have decent labor practices that don't include kids.

No, I don't care if it costs more.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The more we want the cobalt, the more greedy mine operators will do anything to get it.

Nope, greedy mine operators are greedy because they are greedy, not because their is a demand for cobalt.


> So don't buy cobalt from them.

I don't.


> No, I don't care if it costs more.

Does that apply to cobalt alone or to all other resources you use?

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > So don't buy cobalt from them.
>
> I don't.
>


Hey, you have a smartphone? Do you ever ride in airplanes? Certainly you need batteries from time to time, no?

If so, you're a consumer of cobalt - https://www.google.com/search?q=uses+for+cobalt

dp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, you have a smartphone? Do you ever ride in
> airplanes? Certainly you need batteries from time
> to time, no?

I buy these from reputable companies. What happens up the supply chain is not my responsibility. I never asked the Congolese to treat each other that way in exchange for my goods.

rt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I buy these from reputable companies. What happens
> up the supply chain is not my responsibility. I
> never asked the Congolese to treat each other that
> way in exchange for my goods.

But they *are* treating each other that way in exchange for your goods. Whether you asked them to or not.

So, sure, you can just say it's not your responsibility, and do nothing.

Or you can take some responsibility, find out where the "reputable companies" you buy from get their raw materials, and if they get them from the Congo, let them know you won't buy their products any longer -- and maybe, just maybe, contribute to helping some kids live decent lives.

Up to you.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But they *are* treating each other that way in
> exchange for your goods. Whether you asked them
> to or not.

QED

I don't think you have a say. The same people who shipped your job to China are in charge of the supply chain. Wall Street tells politicians to crap in their own bed, and they do it.

I assume you know, Hie, but filing a statement such as this is a requirement of being a US-publicly traded company.

http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1193125-17-159397&cik=320193

It's about as evasive as a statement can be. I Googled:


apple sec conflict minerals filing

Substitute any public company's name.

Yeah, I know.
The government has their standards, consumers can have different ones. Which was my entire point.

If a significant portion of Apple's consumers refused to buy from Apple unless they could show verifiable evidence that they're not buying from these Congolese mines, they'd pay attention.

If nearly all of Apple's consumers just shrug their shoulders and say it's not their problem, they won't pay attention or do anything.

Does any other cell-phone manufacturer do any better? Aren't they all made in China, and using these elements? Because if there is one that doesn't, I'll buy that one.

At the risk of sounding ignorant (which I truly am on this subject), what can we do?

Reading this, I'm just going to let my old iPhone hang on 'till it's completely dead, rather than upgrade.

Most people will do what's right if they have the knowledge. (I hope!)

I'm glad there's some caring/ concern here, thanks for this info.

Lots of cobalt is required for batteries in EV cars, a necessary element in virtue signaling.

Kinda reminds me of a place I used to work.

The cell phone I'm typing this on was assembled for $4. It's a little freaky to think the battery powering it has cobalt dug from the ground by little hands. I guess it takes all kinds (of slaves) to make the world go round.

Economic systems are what we make them. Maybe they are ourselves writ large. When we fix our inner worlds, the outer world will fix itself. Hopefully technology will instrument our inner worlds to make it easy for everyone.

but are instead just made up based on former boundaries from the Congress of Berlin era. Vast mineral and resource wealth has made the few rich and the many poor.

Nothing new. 3rd world operate this way. No amount of foreign aid or charity will ever change it.

You have to learn how to work at some age and in poor countries slavery starts real early.

A four year old works more days than some college graduates in the states.

We're all buying cobalt from the Congo. It's the primary source. The news is tragic, but we must know. Then we can act.

All cell phones use columbite-tantalite (coltan), and all coltan comes from Democratic Republic of Congo. All coltan is mined by the Chinese, who have a monopoly on coltan. This is why all cell phones are made in China. All the other countries who mine in DRC are allowed to just dig the holes and walk away with the wealth, so long as they pay one of the few so-called "strong men" in the government or local tribe, or both.

The Chinese do some infrastructure works for the Congolese in return, but bring in Chinese laborers to do it, so the work brings no economic benefit to the desperately poor Congolese. The Australian-British company Rio Tinto, which employs many Americans, also actively removes copper from DRC, just walking away from both the Congolese and the environmental damage. Israeli companies have dibs on all the diamonds. The companies all leave the Congo in more of a mess economically and environmentally than they found it, and the people see no benefit of their own resources.

When the Democratic Republic of Congo declared independence in 1960, Patrice Lumumba began to charge tariffs on the minerals, and removed the military from Belgian to Congolese control. Other countries were livid. The US and Belgium worked out a plan; Belgium rounded up Lumumba and his two closest associates, took them into a forest, and executed them against a tree. The Americans provided the next leader, Mobutu Sese Seko, who changed the name of the country to Zaire (his tribe's name for the Congo River), and he maintained a kleptocracy until 1991, when he had the entire country pillaged (period known as "les pillages") by the Army for about 2 years, leaving it in the state it is today. Thank you America. You've done it again.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All cell phones use columbite-tantalite (coltan),
> and all coltan comes from Democratic Republic of
> Congo. All coltan is mined by the Chinese, who
> have a monopoly on coltan. This is why all cell
> phones are made in China. All the other countries
> who mine in DRC are allowed to just dig the holes
> and walk away with the wealth, so long as they pay
> one of the few so-called "strong men" in the
> government or local tribe, or both.

Exactly right, this is where it starts: local corruption and the total absence of the rule of law.


> and he maintained a kleptocracy until 1991, when he had
> the entire country pillaged (period known as "les
> pillages") by the Army for about 2 years, leaving
> it in the state it is today. Thank you America.
> You've done it again.

Without wanting to diminish the role of the CIA on behalf of corporate America, some elementary math shows that 2017 - 1991 = 26 years. It's not like they couldn't have started rebuilding already. Of course, to rebuild, you have to stop whacking your neighbours because they are of a different tribe. Also, building is hard work, much easier to join a militia and rape, pillage and enslave the poor and the weak at gun- or knifepoint.

No, "the west" doesn't have clean hands but it's primarily an African problem "we" take advantage of. You can't help people who don't help themselves. Chances are, our "aid" will ignite some obscure tribal rivalry or another and the whole bloody cycle starts over again.

You can create a nation in which people don't have the mental resources to help each other beyond the destruction brought about by the colonial powers. You have to keep in mind the decades of terrorism that the Belgians inflicted on the Congolese. It's a situation where no one knows quite what to do to assist a nation like this. But one thing you don't do is rape the countryside, as many Western nations do.

Kinshasa was so thoroughly ruined by les pillages that it's hard to know where to start. In the end, all metal of any kind was taken. By the time the army came into every house and stole every bit of food, the populace then began pillaging in order to have food. Every bit of cable and every last manhole cover were ripped out and sold, as was anything else of value. They fell into civil war for a few years until Lawrence Kabila took over. When he was assassinated, his son Joseph--who might not really be his son, after all, or even Congolese--took over. In the last year he has become a dictator, and well-supported by the US, who hitched their wagon to him in 2006-7.

We're all in this destruction together. Only the Chinese have chipped in and done a few repairs, in exchange for the coltan.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can create a nation in which people don't have
> the mental resources to help each other beyond the
> destruction brought about by the colonial powers.

The colonial age ended some 60 years ago. Very few people from that time are alive today in the Congo. Or in Belgium, for that matter. Neither the victims, nor the perpetrators are around anymore. It's an awful bit of history but history nonetheless.

I doubt many Congolese today blame the colonial age for their misery. That's mostly a western state of mind, imo.

It's like the Germans, who are still beating themselves up over the terrible things their great-grandparents did. It clouds their judgment on how to deal with the problems of our time.


> You have to keep in mind the decades of terrorism
> that the Belgians inflicted on the Congolese. It's
> a situation where no one knows quite what to do to
> assist a nation like this.

The whole point of decolonization was for the Congolese to manage their own affairs. We're 60 years in and the mess is bigger than it ever was.


> But one thing you don't
> do is rape the countryside, as many Western
> nations do.

That's what laws are for, to regulate the way companies do business. But the Congolese leaders and war lords are too busy enriching themselves and slaughtering their opponents to make and enforce laws.


> Kinshasa was so thoroughly ruined by les pillages
> that it's hard to know where to start. In the end,
> all metal of any kind was taken. By the time the
> army came into every house and stole every bit of
> food, the populace then began pillaging in order
> to have food. Every bit of cable and every last
> manhole cover were ripped out and sold, as was
> anything else of value.

This reminds me of the Great Leap Forward in China. Same time, same result: a country stripped of every last bit of firewood and metal, and tens of millions dead, the survivors scraping by on grass and tree bark.

Look at where China is now. Look at where the Congo is now. Nations need to take responsibility for their own destiny or they will be exploited.


> We're all in this destruction together. Only the
> Chinese have chipped in and done a few repairs, in
> exchange for the coltan.

As you may have guessed from my contributions to this thread, I strongly reject the notion of collective historical guilt.

Yeah, and you're a shit, too, for judging without seeing, and for casting a very racist shadow across your post.

Ah, the racism card plus an insult. I guess that means the rational arguments of your limited liberal library are depleted. I hope it was at least cathartic and salvaged your neo-Marxist world view in light of a dangerous different opinion.

Cheers!

I lose zero sleep over the struggles in the Congo. They can rise up with their pitch forks and tools to kill the warlords. It just takes courage to stand up.

But, the resources they sell off allows them to buy the weaponary to kill of these small rebellions.

If more rised up against their local government or whatever they might have a chance or be slaughtered.

Either way, many African nations are controlled by the corrupt and pay to play guys. So, they people get used to it, they know its messed up but they have lived decades with the corruption so to not screw somebody over in a business transaction is just crazy not to.

Those with hired help, paramilitary groups around to kill those that think they are in charge will be the ones that ARE indeed making the shots.

So, long as the thirst for power, influence, and money exists, those that have not will be exploited or die of thirst and hunger.


Again, I lose zero sleep and glad that I just have to deal with my own corrupt 1st world Government that has their only system of lawful robbery but in general enforces the laws.


The Congo will be like this in another 40 years. All these Christian missions trying to build clean water facilities, humanitarian efforts etc, churches, and bible outreach is just a waste of time and can be destroyed quickly. I think it's a cover to just exploit and get more money from the richer countries to pocket and spend a small percentage of the money for good optics and P.R.