I think we are over analyzing Jeff Holland's Tempe, AZ talk. We are missing the point.

He hasn't realised anything, he hasn't learned the church has huge problems since he joined the Q12, he isn't trying to cement his legacy as a Q12 member, or to set a foundation if he gets the top job.

The simple fact is Jeff is a bully and a total prick. He has always been that way. It is all he knows how to be.

He was the Area Authority in Europe when I was on my mission in England. He is famous for going ape-shit crazy at England Bristol Mission zone conferences. Ranting and raving at the missionaries.

I present to you a journal entry from one such conference, probably his most famous one. The horse shooting conference.

"Sister Holland gave a good talk about missionaries and it seemed as if we'd got away without the scything attack we'd all been anticipating as, although all 5 talks were centred on obedience etc., we weren't exactly being scolded, that is, until Elder Jeffrey R Holland, Quorum of the Seventy stood up as concluding speaker.

Then, all hell literally broke loose! He started off by smashing his fist in anger on the stand. We all jumped, especially as he started foaming at the mouth - I jest not! he yelled and ranted for quite a time about how disgusting, embarrassing and shameful this mission is. Last month we baptised less people then were sent home - 6 baptisms, 7 sent home! I've NEVER, EVER seen anyone so angry and annoyed in my whole life, and believe me, mum and dad have been annoyed plenty of times. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I think that the rest of the congregation felt the same. We were all paralysed to our pews with fright. No-one even dared to blink. Apparently, he'd given the same talk to the other zones yesterday and after one meeting, a missionary Elder had been caught arranging to meet a girl in town. Elder Holland yelled about what a "Jackass" this Elder was and how Pres. MP had to almost physically restrain Elder Holland from kicking the Elder all the way back to the States by force. I didn't disbelieve a word.

He finally concluded by saying that if the mission were a horse he'd have it shot! He then calmed down a bit and lowered his tone and the spittle stopped flying as he counselled us on what we should be doing. I think he cracked a joke but no-one dared laugh or smile just in case they incurred the wrath of Holland again! When the meeting was over we were all silent. Elder YYYY began talking about where the mission money goes to but I don't think anyone took any real notice. A lot of people were crying still, not so much from guilt as the strong spirit, which had been in the meeting.

ZTM was an intense experience that as a mission we all needed to make us aware of our standing as a whole in the Church. One thing Elder Holland said, which particularly has stuck in my mind was that "You'll never, ever get another chance to serve a two year mission as we are now". It really brought home to me that this is the only chance I've got. I feel as if I've had a change of heart and outlook on my mission - a greater determination to work harder then ever before. Another interesting point about ZTM was that half-way through, Elder XXXXX said that what the talks contained was sacred and for our use only and that we weren't to tape them."

..and you weren't supposed to tape them...? He knew his words would not withstand the test of time. He sounds like such a jackass. What a bully. I'm glad I'm out. I would love to talk to him sometime to see how he feels about all of the misery he has caused.

He was foaming at the mouth and yet you all still felt the spirit?

Sorry, wasn't clear in my opening post, was in a rush to post. The journal entry was not mine, I got it from another (still TBM to this day) missionary that was actually at the meeting.

I had finished my mission just a little before this ridiculous Zone Conference. I recall Holland berating the EBM missionaries, both collectively in meetings, and in one on one interviews. He was a real piece of work.

But the shooting the horse conference was widely regarded as his finest hour in the EBM. It has reached legend status.

I post it to show that Jeff Holland has always been the jerk you see now in the Q12. He hasn't changed a bit. He hasn't had new light and truth provided to him from his time in the inner circle of Mormonism, he just is an angry and bitter fucker.

So, someone *did* tape Holland's speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Lf8GtMe4M

Video not available. ;o)

I guess Holland would have said: "Always Be Conning"!

Thanks for that Scotslander.

Had some former friends that served in Bristol 1975-80. They came back with stories of breakaway groups in that area during their time there.

Yeah, there were a few local members that decided to try and give polygamy a try. Was quite the event.

Was before my time in that mission though, but it was still part of the lore of the mission. I did serve in at least one of the wards where it happened, and the older members that liked the young annoying missionaries would talk about it to us.

I spent a couple of hours with 'Jeff' when he was based in Solihull and he told me his father hadn't been particularly active. I'm not sure if that qualifies as jumping out the boat or not.

Its called righteous indignation...actually has aname...very useful tool in brainwashing....give em shit then pull out the charm like your just a concerned caring leader who wants the very best for his stooges...Patten would be proud...if it didnt work theyd quit doing it...calling the worthless worms to repentance was a huge deal in plyg meetings....true believing worms...me included were just so darn glad jeebus was giving us shit again...jeebus still cared about us enough to rail and sputter...plygs had a couple like Holland...serious business boy...at times i thought it was them flagellatibg themselves for what they did to that poor sheep when they were fourteen...the wages of sin...is guilt...deal with it jeffy

The very fact that an asshole like Jeff Holland is one of the top leaders of Mormonism is clear proof that the church is not led by god.

Agree. Jesus doesn't smile or laugh but he does berate, scream and foam at the mouth, apparently.

Jeff seems like a very holy person.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CiyrZd-kB0

HOLEY is more like it.

I was in the Birmingham mission at the same time & we heard the stories of Bristol sending more mishies home, than they baptised :-)

We were on a roll at the time, comfortably dunking 60-70 each month & Holland loved us & our MP.

As he lived within our mission boundaries, he would regularly turn up and speak at mission conferences.

Phoney Moroni, are you able to say which of the Birmingham wards you served in?

copolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phoney Moroni, are you able to say which of the
> Birmingham wards you served in?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the Brum area, I served in Solihull, Sutton Coldfield & Harbourne.

Would like to think we bumped into one another at some time. Who knows?

Sutton... Robertson family, Tony Grice, David Hayes and John Fell.
Solihull...Carlston Walters, John Ashmead, David Cooke and the church office lot. Ring any bells?

copolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would like to think we bumped into one another at
> some time. Who knows?
>
> Sutton... Robertson family, Tony Grice, David
> Hayes and John Fell.
> Solihull...Carlston Walters, John Ashmead, David
> Cooke and the church office lot. Ring any bells?

>>>>>>>>>>


Yes, definitely remember The Robertsons & Grice families probably met the others but can't place the names, it was 25 years ago. Also remember the Bradshaws from Sutton.

I also remember the Cooke's & John Ashamed from Solihull. Also a branch of the Verman clan (Policeman?) Plesters & another family (Scandanavian Mother?) who's name escapes me but their Daughter managed to marry an Elder from my Zone after he returned home to the U.S. & of course our very own Tom Phillips & family.....I think Tom may have been SP at the time.

Met lots of great people on my mission and have many fond memories of those times, just sad I spent most of it knocking on doors for a cult.

Thanks for that Phoney Moroni. Don't know the Scandanavian lady but I remember Neal Verman. I'm glad you have some fond memories of your time here.

I wasn't a member of the wards mentioned but over the years I got to interact with them.

I left TSCC without knowing Tom had left a couple of months before me. We've met up since and in spite of everything he seems to have found happiness. I have nothing but admiration for the courage he has shown. As I'm sure you'll agree he's a genuinely nice fella.

Best wishes.

I think a possible reason that Holland was furious was that other areas in the church were experiencing tremendous growth. It's very likely that these area presidents would brag about their numbers. I know that my mission (Texas Corpus Christi Mission) was on fire because the personal letter that came with the calling bragged about being one of the top three stateside missions in bringing new converts into the church. I later learned that most of these baptisms were "day baps" or baseball stadium stuff. Also, half of the missionaries were sent home and the original MP was unable to finish his 3 year term. So he was sent home too due to an illness.

By the time I arrived in 91, most of the short cuts taken by elders to trap new members and blatant number pumping had been tidied up. But if you knew where to look, it was easy to find pictures and data of illegal baptisms in pools, midnight font dunking, lakes and the ultimate: the Rio Grande. I read a baptism report for June or July that stated over 300 convert baptisms with only 6 sets of elders in Laredo. That number fell to 16 for December when done by the book (discussions, interviews).

I think this indirect correlation of data may have got Holland's blood boiling. If they can baptize like that in the states then what's wrong with the elders in the UK?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2016 03:39PM by messygoop.

"the ultimate: the Rio Grande. I read a baptism report for June or July that stated over 300 convert baptisms with only 6 sets of elders in Laredo."

How'd you do that? Just baptize 'em as they were wading across the border? :-)

randyj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "the ultimate: the Rio Grande. I read a baptism
> report for June or July that stated over 300
> convert baptisms with only 6 sets of elders in
> Laredo."
>
> How'd you do that? Just baptize 'em as they were
> wading across the border? :-)

I wasn't there in summer 1991; having arrived in November. I was assigned to a ZL and had access to their files. There were pictures showing just that. There were a lot of road trips and goofing off. The elders that were still around after the great purge taught me and the other greenies how to work and have a good time. We played a lot of capture the flag at night at the downtown river park. We played soccer and had the misfortune of losing the soccer ball to the wheels of a semi truck. We played extremely rough basketball, but it was the touch football that morphed into tackle that was the best. These guys took a humongous risk because they were at risk of being tattled on.

When the last of these "day bap'ers" went home all the fun went with them. All that remained were a bunch of straight arrows that were hell bent on ass kissing to make AP. We got restricted to playing basketball for no more than two hours on p day because too many mishies were getting hurt.

"Little Elder Johnny raised his quivering hand and asked 'AA Holland, if Jesus Christ was standing next to you at this moment, what would He say?'

'Would He say that we are working hard but need to improve in certain areas of our efforts and go on to teach us how to be better Christians?' ' Or would He brow beat us to kill our spirit and make us want to give up and go home?'

'Would encourage us or discourage us?'

Slowly Elder Johnny sat down and awaited the wrath of either the Lord or Satan to come down on his head."

My mission Zone Conferences were also on the receiving end of these kinds of rants from Regional Reps et al.

If i'da known then what i know now i woulda stood straight up and said in front of everyone in attendance...HEY Elder so & so...how dare you talk to me (us) like that...we are here volunteering our time and money...you should be on your hands and knees thanking and apologizing to each and every one us for even being here you sanctimonious SOB!!!

And then walk out and catch a plane home!!!

Or so it seems to me...

Wow, and back when he was BYU Pres., Jeffy Holland liked to give BYU students the impression he was a sweet, fun and swell guy.
Seems he had a different side to him!

That had been my impression, too. I mean Jeff brought caffeine-free coke to campus. Scotslander's probably correct--Jeff was a fucktoid all along.

It was my opinion that the problems with the EBM mission were ALL because of an inept Mission President. President Jones had no clue how to lead, relate to, or inspire a bunch of young people.

His chosen leaders were terrible.

If Jeff had sent the MP home and replaced him, the work would have been much more productive. Instead he sent the missionaries home that rebelled against the terrible leadership. There is only so much pressure some people will take before they push back.

Holy shit, essential background information for what caused the Clegg/Richards era in the England Manchester Mission.

For those that don't know, underneath Clegg the EMM became a high pressure sales machine. All of the stuff you'd expect missionaries of doing was done. Cemetery, midnight, buying kids gifts for baptisms and such. If there was anything crazy, hormonal, suicidal, or otherwise easily manipulated they were baptized during this time.

Richards stoked the fire to make it worse when he came in. I came into it under Richards in 96. By 1997 they brought in a senior missionaries from LDS social services and trained psychiatrist to try to put it back together again after a few Mormon royalty got sent home with mental issues (Other apostles grandsons, some very wealthy prominent members).

Clegg became the England MTC program director and both Richards and Stuckii who followed were GA 70's when they returned. They all ended up temple presidents last I checked. These promotions shattered my shelf only a year after I got back.

Holland visited the EMM while I was there and very blatantly lied to the whole mission. He has a history of doing so apparently.

the1v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Holy shit, essential background information for
> what caused the Clegg/Richards era in the England
> Manchester Mission.
>
> For those that don't know, underneath Clegg the
> EMM became a high pressure sales machine. All of
> the stuff you'd expect missionaries of doing was
> done. Cemetery, midnight, buying kids gifts for
> baptisms and such. If there was anything crazy,
> hormonal, suicidal, or otherwise easily
> manipulated they were baptized during this time.
>
> Richards stoked the fire to make it worse when
> he came in. I came into it under Richards in 96.
> By 1997 they brought in a senior missionaries from
> LDS social services and trained psychiatrist to
> try to put it back together again after a few
> Mormon royalty got sent home with mental issues
> (Other apostles grandsons, some very wealthy
> prominent members).
>
> Clegg became the England MTC program director and
> both Richards and Stuckii who followed were GA
> 70's when they returned. They all ended up temple
> presidents last I checked. These promotions
> shattered my shelf only a year after I got back.
>
> Holland visited the EMM while I was there and very
> blatantly lied to the whole mission. He has a
> history of doing so apparently.

Reasonably accurate. Don't remember the cemeteries or midnight stuff - but I was Clegg era. High pressure is an understatement.

They closed down Downend Ward in the Bristol Stake prior to 1990 due to the take up of the practice of polygamy. Those from that ward all emigrated to the USA to continue their happy little lives.

I thought the polygamy stuff was all in the wells rd ward?

I served in Southmead and visiting the poly leaders mum who lived in the boundaries, they were called the 'munnites'

He was addressing an audience of adults. 19 years and up.

They could have collectively stood up and left Holly Hobbie to rage at an empty room.

I think we need to work on "strengthening the youth".

So Jeffy wants more convert baptisms? I have an idea. Tie up your forward thrust shoes and hit the streets missionary style, Jeffy! Lets have the ASSpostHOLE show the regular missionaries just exactly how it is done.

I saw Holland speak as i was in Coventry Stake and Solihull was in the stake at the time. Tom P was SP.

Even when i was a hardcore TBM i still struggled with Holland, he struck me as over the top, volatile, like a bad boss. A men unable to control his emotions and use level headed persuasion and reason. Ranting and pulpit thumping usually strikes me as the act of someone who cannot control themselves.

I've been to so many conferences over the years and my opinion of these guys is pretty low. It's all about manipulation. Emotional manipulation, misrepresenting stories to try to leverage emotional effect.

Then they play the authority card. It never quite sat right because there was always something missing, a sense that real Apostles simply wouldn't need to do that.

Finally, there was never a genuine testimony. All of the biblical writers spoke openly of their experiences. Yet these guys, all they managed was the same kind of water thin testimony about how they knew, but never any real substance as to why.

To me the Golden rule is, if someone implies when they could simply say it probably never happened. If you are implying your trying to say it without saying it. Unless there is a very valid reason then it is likely BS. You're soft landing a lie - this pretty much sums up most GA testimonies. They lack the courage to tell the big lie, so play the small lies implying they've seen something magical. That makes them conscious Bullshitters IMO.

Holland was an arse. He'll die an Arse. His moment of real greatness could've happened if he'd have responded to Tom Phillips and followed Tom in having the courage to stand up and come clean. He would have made international news especially if he'd have stood beside Tom in that court room. Yet he chose the path of least resistance. He won't be remember as a brave man, only another of the long list of American fraudster fools that like to pretend to fictional authority and revelations.

The first GA to break ranks will likely open the floodgates. They'll also earn their place in history. Doing the right thing takes a lot of courage and this is why so many will simply stay quiet and take the cheques.

I don't judge people by their rank. I judge them by their words and actions. Right now in terms of spiritual leadership I think that Pope Francis often has useful things to say, as does the Dalai Lama. They both show that they have made thoughtful, compassionate connections from their religious faith to current life.

I don't feel that the majority of the time when reading what Mormon leaders have to say. To me, they seem more like church administrators, not spiritual leaders.