Just like back in the good ol' MTC, I had a change to brush up on my BRT... er... manipulation... er sales presentation skills to a TBM.
I am pretty new in my process of leaving the church. I have just begun studying factual church history and it is making me pretty angry. Mostly just angry about being lied to and not encouraged to read any of this stuff during my 25+ years as a TBM. Lately, I have been wanting to grab some TBM by the collar and shake them - ask them to wake up and stop being to close-minded. Last night I was on Facebook and received an invite to a BPK event - just a page encouraging people to write letter in support of his statements instead of against them. A lot of hurtful things were being said on the board and just a lot of thoughtless parroting. I jumped on and had this conversation with a total stranger. I am just starting to learn how to talk to TBM's without backing down and just "not discussing religion", but actually engage them and get them to think a little without fighting. I have done this once in person and it was very hard to control my emotions. I did better online as I had a chance to sit and process my feelings before typing. I guess this might be called "trolling", not sure. I was sincere in my comments and I didn't really try to provoke anger. It was very healthy for me and a good part of this process. Here's the convo:
Me: as a former Mormon who still has great relationships with all of my non-Mormon and Mormon friends, served an LDS mission, and was married in the temple, I think it is important for members to know the truth.
Many of my LDS friends have seen this video series and remain LDS - I respect that. It is important to know the whole truth about the church and make your own choice. Follow your heart, but do not ignore the truth. The people in this video are your brothers and sisters. Children of God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwUTVQ4mfNE (this link is to a video on youtube interviewing members who received electro-shock therapy at BYU)
TBM#1 - yeah, there might be some truth in the video (not gonna waste my time watching) but it never is totally true. If we just remember the spirit who told us the church is true in the first place, it would be hard to leave. I have many times heard or read....
TBM#1 - some disturbing literature that makes me doubt. But then I decide to just have faith in God, and down the road, I find the reason for the piece of info or that it is mostly false.
Me - @TBM#1 - The video interviews members who knew they were gay at a young age and went to church leaders for guidance and help. These inspired leaders sent them to electro-shock treatments at BYU. I know this type of treatment was popular at the time among non-LDS, but if leaders are truly inspired, I can't understand how they could send anyone here. Maybe you can help me understand that - I am being sincere here
TBM#1 - @Me: Leaders aren't perfect. Even Moses has recorded instances in the Bible where he screwed up. When I was a youth, I actually left the church and stopped caring because of the actions of some of my leaders. they aren't perfect, but they're human, and some are more sincere than others. You have to come to the point where if a church leader tells you to f## off, you stick with the church because it's the Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS, not the Church of Bishop Bressler or the Church of Bishop Clayton
Me: @TBM#1 - the church does not exist on earth without the people. I cannot separate the people from the gospel, I used to, but it does not make sense. I agree that they are not perfect and they should not be followed all of the time. I do n...ot disagree with everything they say. Temple covenants and church teachings discourage independent thought because Mormons are to sustain these leaders, perfect or not. I think that is bad. I think it is more important to follow your heart first, leaders 2nd. The church kind of teaches this - you know, following the spirit, but how could the spirit tell me the church is wrong and tell you it is right?
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BM#2 - THE CHURCH IS TRUE, THE CHURCH IS THE RESTORED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST-- THE PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT, THE PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS TRUE TO THE CHURCH, TO OUR SAVIOR. WE WORSHIP OUR LORD AND REDEEMER. WE GO TO CHURCH TO FOLLOW HIM, NOT TO MEET PE...RFECT PEOPLE. THE LEADERS HAVE DONE WONDERFUL THINGS AND MADE HORRIBLE MISTAKES. THE EVER CHANGING PEOPLE DO NOT CHANGE THE CHURCH. MY HEART GOES OUT TO THE LEADERS WHO MADE THESE CHOICES AND THE MEMBERS WHO SUFFERED IN TRYING TO REPENT AND DO BETTER. DON'T LET A PERSONS BAD CHOICE LOOSEN YOUR GRIP ON THE IRON ROD. CTR!
TBM#1 @Me: could you tell me how the spirit told you the church is wrong (if it's too personal, don't worry about it)
TBM#2 - TO CLARIFY, THE CHURCH IS SET IN STONE, BUT THE PEOPLE HAVE PROGRESSED IN TIME AND CONTINUE TO DO SO. THE LEADERS IN THIS VIDEO SCREWED UP, THE YOUNG MEN SHOULDN'T HAVE PAID FOR THIS BUT THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE QUIT EITHER, THEY WERE ON THE RIGHT PATH, THEY KNEW WHAT WAS RIGHT. ANYHOO, WE'VE COME ALONG WAY, AS A CHURCH AND NATION, BUT WE'VE ALL GOT A LONG WAY TO GO.
Me@TBM#2 - I think God will forgive me for having empathy for these people. If I sat down with him and told him why I left the church, I think he would be proud of me as he would be proud of you for following your heart. I agree that Boyd is entitled to his opinion, I just worry about the children and adults in the audience who cannot change who they are and are being told they are sinners if they do what comes naturally to them.
Me@TBM#1 - It is personal, probably as personal as when the spirit told me it was true in my youth. And probably as personal as it was to you when you felt it was true. Strong Emotional Feelings/Conscience/The Holy Ghost - whatever name we call it and whatever it is, it is very powerful.
TBM#1 - @Me: k, I thought so, didn't mean to pry.
Me@TBM#1 - it's all good - you know how it is. Not really something to talk to strangers about in depth... I would have been lying to myself to stay a member of the church. The homosexual issue is a small part of it. Church history, as you probably know, can be very disturbing. I can't in conscience be a member of an organization with those skeletons in the closet. I didn't believe much of what I read at first, but I did my own research, using all LDS sources since I refused to even touch "anti-mormon" literature. The book "Rough Stone Rolling" really opened my eyes. It was written by Richard L. Bushman, a member in good standing. Polygamy, polyandry, racism, sexism, just too much.
Me@TBM#2 - I disagree with you that they shouldn't have quit the treatment. Studies show that this kind of therapy does not work. Less than half of 1% change. Many become a-sexual and need counseling for the rest of their lives. The church still d...oes this today, not physical shock torture, but emotional torture through the Evergreen program. They were wrong to do it physically in the 60's - 90's physically and wrong to do it now emotionally. Email me back some day when the church admits this, then we can agree. I understand that you can't go against the leaders council, I was also there once.
TBM#1 - yeah, when I went through church history there was a lot of eyebrow raising events in there. But sometimes you have to take it in context of the times.
The Neal A Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship has a lot of issues that it addresses that I like reading about. I think they're pretty open about stuff.
Me@TBM#1 - Yeah, I got a lot of my info from the Neal A Maxwell Religious Scholarship. A man in a position of power marrying women who are already married and taking on a 14 year old girl as another wife is not ok in the context of any times.... If Joseph Smith only took single women or widows as wives, I could maybe understand, but taking women who were already married. Some defend this saying there was no sex, but marriage is for pro-creation according to the arguments against homosexuality. The LDS apologists just go round and round in circles.
Me: Trust me, I really wanted to believe it. Still do, if it was true it would be wonderful.
TBM#1 - yeah, I read all those same articles, had to think and pray about some of the stuff, then I was able to piece some stuff together that helped me feel better.
I won't get into those arguments, I see some of that in a different way I'm sure. ...I hope you don't get too much flack about leaving the church; my mom left and it's hard because her family are all really active. her immediate, like mom and brothers and sister.
Me@TBM#1 - I got some flack from my in-laws, but my immediate family has been pretty great considering. I've lost a few friends over it, but strengthened relationships with other people. Be nice to your mom, its a really tough decision, if s...he has made it, then know that she followed her heart. There is a big misconception that I even used to have that people leave because they were offended by someone in the ward, or because of pride, or because of sin. I went through a long period where I thought I was the problem, that the doubts and questions I had were my fault. Its a rough place to be, especially after serving a mission and being sealed in the temple. I have broken covenants that I made with God of my own free will. I can accept that I I know God understands me and is the only judge that matters.
TBM#1@Me: good post. Yeah, we pretty much just don't talk about religion with my mom, saves a lot of headache!
Me@TBM#1 - good discussion. Thanks for putting up with my "anti-mormon" "apostate" views and being respectful. LOL! Most people won't even discuss these things with thoughtfulness and respect. I am able to have good discussions with both mor...mon and non-mormon friends alike. I know most members really do try to love one another. I think the church membership is better represented by its individuals than by its leadership. We all just want to love and be loved and if there is an after life, we want to keep on doing that. If not, we won't be around to worry about it. :)