First, thanks for all being on here and to whoever created this site. When I feel downtrodden about everything I truly feel comforted here. Recovery is a great word to describe it.

So I ditched church yesterday to go skiing- pow day. Sorry, not sitting through 3 boring hours when I could score 1st tracks in powder up to my chest (they opened the backside of solitude just in time for me to wreck it).

Anyway, wifey went to church, did her calling, and was acting pretty upset when I got home. She wouldn't really talk to me. Eventually she just blurted out, "so when are you going to stop attending church altogether?" Ironically, I was on RFM when she asked. I set the computer aside so we could chat.

Long story short, it opened up an entire conversation on where I'm really at and I basically told her what I was planning on telling her come April when I graduate. That I'm only being 'active' in church now because I'm scared if I don't, BYU won't give me a degree and then so much for med school. I explained that I have found too much evidence against the truthfulness of the church (without diving into detail because she gets flustered easily when I bring up real evidence).

Then it got freaky. She brought up divorce. Said she didn't "sign up for this." Said she can't see herself having kids with me. I told her that I want to be with her, only if she can learn not to resent me or hate me for my beliefs, or lack thereof. And, that I would never resent her for hers. She cried then ended up telling me she doesn't want a divorce either but it will be really hard and she needs to talk to her friends and family. I told her I don't really care if she talks to them as long as SHE WAITS until AFTER I graduate to do so, and that we should keep it between her and I until then. To which she agreed.

Then I asked her if I could please show her the evidences I've found so she can either tell me I'm crazy or not. I said I don't want to convince you otherwise, but if you can convince me otherwise I would welcome the rebuttal. She said she did not want to look at it YET. So maybe soon she'll let me show her?

At one point she told me I shouldn't be looking at anti and I told her that I learned about joseph's young wives and wives that were already married on LDS.org then explained how such disrespect for women is ridiculous to me. She actually said something like, "you think that is hard for you? I'm a woman! Think about how difficult that is for me!" I said I know, that's why I'm surprised you've never questioned it.

Anyways, there was more discussion than what I detailed, we were up late talking. But, came out a lot sooner than expected.

Thoughts? Advice?

By the way, it feels really good to be all out there with my wife finally.

I'm sorry you're having to go through all of this. I think you're wise to stay reasonably active until you are safely away from BYU with your transcripts in hand.

Good luck with your wife. I hope it works out for you.

Thanks Cheryl you're very kind

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...until you are safely away from BYU with your
> transcripts in hand.

buffalo...

I have been on this board for fifteen years and, simultaneously, I was on another board (semi-related to this one) for all of that other board's run, and the wisdom of Cheryl's statement here cannot be overstated.

After you graduate, obtain multiple official copies of your BYU transcript and keep those "extra" copies with your birth certificate and all of your other, most important, legal papers FOREVER.

One of the many things I have learned on exmormon boards is that you can NEVER assume that, after you graduate, you (as an exmormon BYU graduate) will then be able to obtain further copies of your BYU transcript, because other BYU graduates have been denied those transcripts once their exmormon status became known.

From your words here, it sounds to me like you and your wife are well on your way to coming to a mutually acceptable couple agreement with each other.

Congratulations and best wishes to BOTH of you!!!

Can't people who that happens to sue for breach of contract?

I don't know crap about reprogramming, but I've heard sometimes it can't be overcome.

But as time goes on, and the church's mistakes continue to pile up, it makes sense that it will be easier.

I do know watching from the sidelines that slower work's better than 'hurry up and stop believing.


I learned to ski at Solitude in 1962, on wooden skis, with cable bindings.

Slow and steady slow and steady. I can do that. Probably won't spring CES letter or Tom Philips second anointing immediately then... haha. I'll save those for later.




elderolddog, I know your name says your old but... wood skis and cable bindings???? Man times have changed!



Your spirit is still more of an elderyoungdog to me

Damn, I wish you’d have kept the cat in the bag, for your sake. I remember telling you to “ shhhh” about a few weeks ago. I guess you do what feels right at the moment. I can’t fault you for skiing, that’s for sure. You are now dependent on the desire and ability of your wife to keep your secret. Best of luck.

Timphaven, 1964, wood skis, 205cm, with those fancy new screw-in metal edges. Lift cable bindings, lace up leather boots, Levi’s, army coat from army-navy surplus store. Back in “ the Day”....I was an 18 yr old from downtown Chicago...culture shock. But fun.

Yes very wise words from old dog. At first i wanted to get better fast and tried many different things but in the end a slow and steady pace upward has been the best way to heal. You have to understand that your mind has been in this mormon bubble and mormon culture for a while. Being in an abnormal bubble that is nothing like reality and trying to be in reality full time is a rough adjustment for your mind and body. You have to go slow or you will try to go back to that bubble that your mind was used to. Remember mormons are weirdos in the world's eyes for a reason. Their beliefs and actions are not normal for a human being. Non-lds counselors have helped me a shit load during the deprogramming process so i recommend that for sure. Venting on this board helps too and i think making your own therapy videos helps as well. Remember there is no pill that can make you normal after mormonism.

Let's hope she keeps quiet until April, hard to do for any Mormon.
Would hate to see your future ruined.

Hope it all works out for you.

The initial conversation is probably hardest, but there will be more and they won't be easy.

I agree with EOD that taking it slow is better than trying to rush your wife into learning what you've learned.

I've been married five years now to a woman who was very TBM. The first two or three years were contentious because I thought that all she needed was to be shown the truth about the church. That was not the case, and she frequently mentioned divorce and said that she had to choose between me and the church.

I've been more or less mum about the church for the past year or so, except to answer direct questions. Our arguments are fewer and further in between, my wife has been mostly inactive for the past year (though she still insists she has a strong testimony), she acknowledges that the church may not be completely forthcoming about its history, and she held her own this past weekend as we finished off a couple bottles of wine while celebrating our anniversary.

Baby steps, but they are steps in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. All I had to do was stop pushing her and to get out of her way as she continues to work through what I have already exposed her to.

Buff

You really have to play the game three more months dude. You are treading on thin ice because I am certain she HAS already spoken in confidence to with bishop, friends, family or student advisor for her. My very strong advice is:
1. Accept a position somewhere. The word getting out on your acceptance may, and I say may, ameliorate hostilities that may be brewing if your bishop decides to have spiritual testosterone poisoning and nail your apostate ass.
2. Do not skip church again. Don’t be an idiot...three hours is no sacrifice.

Gatorman

I agree. You’re trusting your entire future to Mormons keeping their mouths shut. Mormons.

I get what you guys are saying but, it's not that big of a deal even if she does blab-- unless I were to remove my names from the records:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865660524/BYU-adjusts-honor-code-policies-for-students-who-leave-LDS-Church.html

"Jenkins said the disaffiliation policy does not apply to students who experience doubts, only those who resign their church membership."

Right! If the feces hits the circulating blades, just give the ol' missionary, sincere smile and bear your testimony and give thanks that you overcame your doubts!

But definitely, go to church and don't give the bishop a reason to start following up on 'rumors'.

Elderolddog is giving you wise advice. Don't mess with what might turn out to be a crazy bishop, stake president, father, relief society president, etc. Those people can be wickedly mean when they think their religion is getting dissed.

If it comes out before your transcripts are securely stamped "graduated" that you are doubting, be sure to go in with your best smile and say that it is all a mistake and your wife misunderstood you. Just a little family squabble. All is well in Mormonville. And keep attending church. You might throw in some faith promoting comments in priesthood meeting just to give extra emphasis.

You'll have plenty of time to discuss everything in depth with anyone once you have that transcript nailed down securely.

Can the bishop revoke his ecclesiastical energy endorsement if DW tells him about Buffalo 's doubts?

Yes. If they really want to kick you out, they will.

Buff,
Listen to Gatorman...he oozes wisdom from every pore. Good luck, my friend. All the best. -edz

Beyond the fact that her family and friends could spell trouble for graduation, the best reason to keep it between the two of you is that this is truly about only the two of you. It's about what the two of you can work out.

The second either partner gets a posse to be on their side--its over. Most Mormon family and friends will have you split up in a second. That's my two cents anyway.

And Mormon family and friends will report you to BYU in a second because "it's what Heavenly Father would want."

Don't spill your guts about all you know. Take it slow. Let your wife think you are still on the fence, still sizing up the situation. Good luck. Go to church.

done & done,

So true-- I feel hypocritical about it, honestly. Not bad. I don't feel bad for telling the board about all of this. But slightly hypocritical for asking DW not to tell her family.

It's between the two of us unless it involves posting on Rfm haha.

Don't feel hypocritical. I dare say we here are all about giving ideas on how to stay together and have everyone happy.

Mormons on the other hand . . .

If a major institution that oozes hypocrisy doesn’t feel bad about it, why should you feel bad about your own?

Ha Ha???? You’re still in a “Ha Ha” mood? WTF do people have to say to get your attention? I’m willing to get super flamed for saying I know you’re a smart kid because of your educational accomplishments, but I’m afraid that there’s a lot you’ve got left to learn that’s not in books. I certainly hope that this won’t be a life changing lesson.....that’s “off the books”. Get serious, play along, get your diploma and STFU.

The hastening has begun...

She cracked her door a little. Bank on her closing it again. For a while. So now, if you love her, go over the top some until the door cracks again. Find at least one thing or more every day to do that clearly states tenderness. As a mormon that may be missing from your DNA - respect and equality.

My motto in business has always been to pay them so much they can’t afford to leave...just saying...

both of you had better realize that both of you have an interest in seeing you graduate with a degree. anything that either of you do, either singly or jointly to destroy that goal will be economic suicide.

Yes, your medical career is now hanging on a very slender thread, and it all depends on whether your wife can stfu until graduation. I'd recommend stalling all further discussions as long as possible until you graduate. When you have copies of transcripts in hand, then you should submit your written resignation, give her a copy, and demand a postnup that says she has no right to any earnings as long as she remains LDS.
Yes, it sounds harsh, but it's not nearly as harsh as your life will be as long as you remain married to someone who lets a church you don't believe in control your lives.

Great so far. Best wishes.

M@t

As uncomfortable as it will be, I suggest pretending to be completely TBM up until the moment you graduate, have a diploma and all necessary transcripts in hand, and are safely enrolled in med school.

You have too much to lose by being caught and your wife is a big wild card here. She might confide her worries to the bishop who will then report them to the honor code office.

It's only a few more months. Play the game until the church can no longer hurt you. If you think they won't try to hurt you, think again. Remember that church members believe your eternal life is more important than anything that happens on this earth, so they will have no problem sabotaging your education, marriage and life in order to "help you" achieve celestial glory.

As much as we will miss you, I even suggest refraining from visiting this site until you're in the clear.

I would strongly agree with this advice. Further, if someone does out you, do not acknowledge anything. Be the TBM that you know that you can pretend to be. Give no quarter. Give your testimony. Never acknowledge at all that you don't believe it all.

The church is lying. Your entire future depends on getting this degree in a few months. Do anything (and I mean anything) to get that degree. Lie, bear your testimony and condemn the person who outs you as doing it for their ends, etc. There is no reason for you to act ethically when an unethical organization could destroy your future.

Go to church. Be the TBM. Do not think of this as being some sort of punishment. Don't focus on the lies. Focus on getting something from this church (a degree that will let you go to medical school), rather than always giving and never getting anything in return but grief.

Tread carefully. Here be dragons!

My guess is that it's best to soft peddle the entire thing until you graduate. For one thing, you have big academic challenges in the short term. Why complicate things?

Then there's the long-term.Tuck away in the back of your mind that marriages do get destroyed over religion. I hope not, but that's ugly reality. Just...keep it in mind.

Sometimes argument by analogy works. (Sometimes!) At an appropriate opportunity, consider this:

"Dear, suppose I got a position at a respected research lab. Everybody is very excited and motivated by their work, and they get great press in the business and professional journals. But after working there, I learn that some of their research has been falsified to sell ineffective, even harmful products.

"Some employees simply 'play along to get along,' others are knowledgeable and actively suppress the findings. I could keep my respected job, with all the pay and benefit--you know, 'play along to get along.' I could just resign and keep this information to myself. Or I could tell people what I know, which will have hard, painful consequences.A lot of important, very powerful people have very big stakes in this research.

"What should I do?"

May I use that ?

Dude, that's ballsy of you, putting your apostate status out there for her to see. Plus skiing. Spend equal time and money with her and you'll be fine.

Let the deprogramming begin!

(BTW, women talk. They always do, even when they say they don't. Perhaps just one person.) Don't flame me for this please, everyone!

Was wondering if it might actually occur earlier than spring.

Obviously you know where the essays are. Can't be anti if the churches writes it.

Only thing I can add. Don't have kids until everything is settled.

How close is she to her mother? Her sisters? Any friends she is really close to? They already know. Women don't keep secrets very well. Well, depends. Depends on how scary the reality is. I didn't tell anyone my boyfriend/eventual ex was gay for a long time except the bishop. The bishop already knew. My ex just didn't want me to go talk to him, but I did anyway, but my ex knew I was going to. It DIDN'T HELP to go talk to the bishop. Live and learn.

I, like others have said, would be at church every Sunday from here until you graduate. Does someone have the story of the guy who used to do those calendars of RMs and how he didn't get his trascript from BYU? Did he ever get it? You NEVER know how vicious they really are until you experience it.

Wow! I’m sending you as much love and support possible. Try spending some more time with your wife keeping communications open.

MB, my wife told me it would have been easier for her if I had an affair rather than leave the church. That’s how deep the enculturation into the cult goes. Even though that’s a bunch of bullshit, it illustrates deep feelings of betrayal. I didn’t intend to hurt my wife, and I doubt that you intended to hurt yours. Mormonism hurts people, families, kids, and marriage. Fuck the Morg! I’m very sorry the two of you are experiencing this. ((((Bro-Hugs)))), The Boner.

Boner!! Dude!!! Your post shocked me, brother. What kind of fucked up shit is it for your spouse to say to you: "It would have been better if you'd had an affair..." versus you (or nearly any of us on this website) responding in a logical and rational manner to the reality that TSCC is a scam??? I mean, come on!! Anybody could read The Essays and be told, by TSCC, that JS was banging 14 year old little girls and other men's wives, right??

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the word "betrayal." To believe in a global property management and land acquisition conglomerate over your own flesh and blood (and a spouse should be considered your own flesh and blood, since when taking a spouse, "they twain shall become one flesh," etc...)

You speak great truth, Boner. mightybuffalo: we would all do well to heed the counsel of The Boner. Thank you for your counsel, my brother. I'll be in touch soon. All the best, -edz

on them rather than leave the church. Oh, if only that is all I have had to deal with. What would I give if all we had had to do was leave the LDS church? Hell, I left it before he did and he was having many affairs.

Nobody gets it UNTIL they are cheated on and I had NO HOPE that my marriage could ever work.

These women have NO CLUE what they are talking about.

I'd like to know what these women say if you told them you are gay and cheating on them? Then would they be glad you only lost belief?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2018 08:39PM by cl2.

Divorce this so called wife ASAP Do you really need some nagging TBM around while trying to get through the rigors of med school? Play the BYU good little momo game for a few short months. Get a huge stack of transcripts and see a divorce lawyer. Or you can stay married , fight all the time over belief , stress out while you could be studying medicine and be overall unhappy.

After I saw "First tracks in powder up to waist" I kept reading to hear the story, but all the words got blurry after that and I didn't see any more on the powder part. I didn't know Utah had that kind of snow yet this year. Whatever happened after that kind of a ski day was secondary, but good luck with your journey.

The counseling advisors your wife will be getting from TSCC aren't going to be up your alley. So if your wife is going to listen to them be prepared for TSTHTF.

Hopefully she will wait as you asked her until after you're through with your studies. Maybe by then she'll be more accepting of your decision to be a non-believer in the church doctrine.

Because otherwise I believe based on my own experience she will be getting counseled to make a break with the marriage to save her soul. That is how her VT, HT, bishop, and others in the church will come to her aid will be to counsel her toward a divorce or separation based on your unworthiness status as a priesthood holder.

Everything revolves around the cult as members. Everything. If your heart isn't in it, they will rally to your wife's to make sure hers is.

If you have to fake it as others have suggested it may be worth it for now since your wife will be advised to leave the marriage IMO, and forge a new path for herself with another like-minded believer. She's still in shock, and reeling from your revelations. She will be answering to church leaders soon enough in some fashion - so prepare for that fallout that is bound to happen once you've made your wishes known and official.

Are you prepared to get divorced, or a separation? You may need to start exploring those very real possibilities so they don't spring up on you out of nowhere when she up and leaves you some morning unexpected.

Wow, I hope my "instead of paying tithing, go skiing" post did not get you into trouble. See what happens when you visit anti-LDS websites.

chipace,

don't worry I just can't pass up good powder. Last saturday and sunday were great.

Did enjoy your post though!

buffalo

Firstly, clear your browsing history every time before you set aside your computer.
I'm glad the one thing you two seem to agree about is not wanting children. That doesn't mean she won't try to conceive a child to force you to stay married and give her the "life she signed up for." In my experience the use of that phrase is never a good omen for future happiness and indicates a certain inflexibility about accepting a shared vision for your future. Nobody is ever guaranteed the life they think they signed up for and clinging to that delusion indicates immaturity and self-centeredness.
She has stated her priority is talking to family and friends, something she will doubtless do on her timetable and not yours.
So I would recommend resuming church attendance for three months and considering it a mandatory performance arts non-credit requirement for graduation. Consider it a gift to your future patients and if anyone challenges you tell them you are there to strengthen your testimony.
I'd also recommend you check the stats for divorce rates of couples who marry before or during medical school. They're not rosy, and you already have the deck stacked against you being married to a woman you love but cannot trust to remain silent about a critical issue for ninety days. I say this as someone who has witnessed a lot of hard divorces among medical students and residents.
I know this is a very stressful period with many changes looming and it's normal to want to cling to a comfortable home and marital relations. If you divorce there will be many other women who will be more than eager to give you what you have now but without decades of dictates from a church you don't believe in.
Do you want to spend the rest of your life saying "I was almost a doctor?"

Wow! When you 'slap someone up-side the head', the echos resonate for days!

That was an awesome job of laying it on the line!

She probably already has, given the Mormon woman's propensity to talk to the RS sisters when the going gets tough.

Women talk amongst themselves all the time at church. Saying she's going to most likely means she's already visited the topic, and more than once.

Besides keeping in mind what everyone has said, above, here's one more note to consider. You might want to have that nice article of the Mormon Faith handy. The one that says that the Mormons take the right to worship in their way and that they extend that right to everyone else.
Usually, that gets used to show the hypocrisy of many Mormons. But, used gently and lovingly, if you ever need it, it could actually help your wife find a way to accept you and your beliefs. It gives her a basis *in her faith* for standing by you, and gives her a basis for rejecting any hypocritical Mormon who says you are bad or that she is justified in dumping you. The Mormon faith requires everyone to extend the right of deciding one's own beliefs. And anyone who does not do that is violating the Mormon faith. It might just help her weed out the bad advice that she will probably get from some quarters. And maybe even to see that some Mormon advisors are not really good people to listen to.

Ahh, the church of the powdery bowl. :) I'll bet it was great. But don't play hooky too much, okay?

I don't think it's a bad thing that the cat is out of the bag with regard to your wife. The longer you can keep it between yourselves the better (she really needs to be a big girl and work this out on her own.) This will give her the time she needs to figure things out. At some point in the future, I would tell her that this needs to happen before med school. She needs to either fish or cut bait.

If word does get around, and your bishop asks, just say that you are having testimony issues but you are working on them. That should do the trick.

I can't imagine a worse tragedy than booting out one's young husband for the true church, then later in life finding out the true church wasn't true at all.

Beyond horrible.

What did your wife sign up for? Oh yeah, to be a TBM doctor's wife. In the Mormon church she will be at the top of the pecking order. You are much too young for this kind of BS.

Show your wife how much you love and care for her this is going to be a lot for her to take in. Only you know your wife and if you an trust her not to tell any one until after you are out of BYU. I have a brother that goes to BYU right now everything in his life is about the church. We don't speak he thinks my family is going to hell. I have read everything you have posted. I really hope you make it to med school and become a DR.

Thanks pogie,

advice on here is great but sometimes people forget I know my wife better than they do. Thanks for recognizing that.

We should all have married more than "just a Mormon." I'd tell her that you hope she married more than just a Mormon, because you had believed that's what you had done.

I agree with the advice here: love your wife and play along as a TBM until you have the documents you need in hand.

Should anyone happen to question you about your testimony of the church, you can honestly say: "I have a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the church," and say no more since that testimony is personal. I would answer no more questions on the topic even if pressed. But if pressed, you could smile and say, "I know my personal testimony is true, I have no doubts." Of course, you know the church is NOT true, you're not lying, but TBMs won't interpret things that way!

Good luck.

Is an undergraduate degree from BYU actually worth anything in the real world? In my case, it proved a liability. For instance, I'd interview for a job, and the interviewer would ask, "Are you uncomfortable working with people who don't share your values?"
By and by, it became clear that I'd do a lot better by keeping my degree a secret. And nowadays I don't have to keep secrets from my wife, kids, neighbors and family. I'm happily married to a Jew.
At BYU I had a terrific crush on a girl for whom I was not quite good enough in the eyes of her oh-so-righteous family. Each morning I kneel and offer a prayer of gratitude that I didn't measure up to her/their standards!
Three months of pretending to be something you're not will have grave consequences. Feel free to contact me privately; for what it's worth, I'll gladly give you my diploma.