If it does, who would be able to enter it if there was a chemical or nuclear attack? Only temple worthy Mormons allowed entrance, and the rest can kiss their arses goodbye?

"Underneath the Mormon Temple in Downtown Salt Lake City a series of tunnels spreads out in all directions. The earliest written mention of this is in 1889 by John Nuttal as he writes in his diary about a tunnel connecting the temple and the annex building next door. The tunnels were built to enable LDS officials to walk back and forth from their offices to the temple without walking through the public or the weather."

http://utahstories.com/2010/08/what-lies-beneath/

IN ~ on SLC tunnel thred ~ !!! ~

Why would an adversary target a nuke on SLC? Nothing there of military importance.

Not 'an' adversary, but THE adversary! You have to know that Satan has a major desire to harm the true church! If Holy McGhost lets his guard down for even an instance, those tunnels will be crawling with GAs looking for some place to poop!! Oh, the horror!

Camp Williams - National Guard training site operated by the Utah National Guard. (25 miles south of Salt Lake City)

Deseret Chemical Depot - A U.S. Army chemical weapons storage facility. (60 miles SW of Salt Lake City)
Tooele Chemical Agent Disposal Facility - Weapon disposal facility at Deseret Chemical Depot.

Dugway Proving Ground - Allied biological and chemical weapon defense systems testing. (85 miles SW of Salt Lake City) "Dugway Proving Ground (DPG) is a U.S. Army facility established in 1942 to test biological and chemical weapons, located about 85 miles (140 km) southwest of Salt Lake City, Utah and 13 miles south of the 2,624 sq mi Utah Test and Training Range forming the largest overland special use airspace in the United States." (wikipedia)

Hill Air Force Base - A major U.S. Air Force Base. (30 miles north of Salt Lake City)
Ogden Air Logistics Complex - Provides support and maintenance for weapon systems at Hill Air Force Base.

Tooele Army Depot - A U.S. Army war reserve and training ammunition storage facility. (36 miles SW of Salt Lake City)

Utah Test and Training Range - Military testing and training area. (Camp Williams - National Guard training site operated by the Utah National Guard.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2018 11:51PM by Amyjo.

I realized after asking last night about the downtown tunnel system doubling as a fallout shelter, that assumes it would be left intact.

If in fact SLC were the target of an enemy hit, the downtown would very likely be at the epicenter of such target. Not an outlier. Because it's in the heart of the population center.

Grim awareness of a grim reality. I just hope it never happens.

Otherwise the underground tunnel system would double as a bomb shelter, if the need were to arise. It's access that has me wondering who would be entitled to using it, or the public at large.

A city of no major military importance wouldn't be a target of a limited first strike but I doubt these days there is any active civil defence planning to shelter thousands of people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/21/nyregion/inside-the-brooklyn-bridge-a-whiff-of-the-cold-war.html

https://youtube.com/watch?v=efWgqZtIwmo

Vegas Home With Underground Deluxe Shelter
https://youtube.com/watch?v=j8Xu1qH6jxQ



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 07:49AM by anybody.

Major cities would be desired targets in wartime. With the capacity to reach every corner of the country, plus with major military installations surrounding it, SLC would be a desirable target for enemy combatant forces to strike.

When Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen is that first, Hiroshima was a port city and a military site. Nagasaki was chosen because Kyoto was ruled out as a cultural center. And because Kokura had a cloud cover the day it was bombed, or Kokura would have been bombed instead.

Salt Lake City is near major military sites. It makes a strategic location, in addition to it being a population center.

SLC doesn't have any missile installations or bomber bases -- that's what you hit first. It also isn't a major transport hub like Atlanta.

You hit cities on the second strike to cause mass panic and disruption...like Dresden.

If there's anybody left to order a second strike.

Of course if the enemy's intent isn't military but just total annihilation then it won't matter where you are.

Salt Lake City would be a target in an enemy strike by virtue of it being a population center. The major military presence nearby is well known.

Nagasaki wasn't a military zone. Yet it was struck following Hiroshima as a first strike locale, to target the populace. Do you really think the Chinese or Russians, or N Korea wouldn't hit a population zone before a military site? Past wars tell a different story. They hit both. A nuclear war especially, or chemical attack targets population zones first.

I have also been to Nagasaki.

Here are some basic historical facts that warrant consideration:

Throughout WWIi, Hiroshima was not designated as a major bombing target for the Allies and, in fact, was not even on its primary target list. Its lines of production during the war were military uniforms and in-field bento boxes.

Hiroshima was also not a vital launch point for its military forces, given that the Japanese archipegelo had been hemmed in by an impenetrable submarine blockade, thereby making it impossible for Japan to project force outside of its own home islands. Essentially, the Japanese troops stationed there were trapped there.

Near the war’s end, the U.S had three A-bombs. One had been tested at Alamogordo. That left two usable bombs. Hitler’s Germany-for whom the bombs were originally intended—had been defeated, so Japan was left to receive the brunt of atomic attack.

Tellingly, the A-bomb that was deployed against Hiroshima was not dropped on military production facilities, which were on the outskirts of the city. Rather, it was dropped in the center of the city where the civilian population was heaviest. Ironically, in addition to the tens of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians who were killed by the Hiroshima bomb drop, the bomb also killed several American POWs being held in the city at the time.

Throughout 1945, the Japanese government was trying to pursue various avenues through which it could negotiate surrender. These efforts were rebuffed. Yet, the official US government-issued bombing survey conducted after the war ended determined that it was not necessary, from a military perspective, to use the atomic bombs against Japan. The Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that Japan was already militarily defeated by August 1945 and would have surrendered by November 1945 without the dropping of the atomic bombs, without the late entry of Russia into the war and without an invasion of the Japanese mainland by Allied forces.

President Harry Truman falsely claimed that an invasion of Japan would result in 1 million American KIAs—a figure that was grossly exaggerated and, in reality, invented out of thin air. Indeed, in March 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff came to the conclusion that an invasion of the Japanese mainland would result in far fewer casualties than either Truman or his Secretary of War Henry Stimson asserted.

The Supreme Commander of Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, strongly opposed the dropping of the A-bombs on Japan; as did Pacific Commander, General Douglas MacArthur; as did Truman’s own White House Chief of Staff, Admiral William Leahy; and as did Rear Admiral Bull Halsey, among others (including Edward Teller, inventor of the H-bomb).

In Japanese, the word “Hiroshima” means “wide island.” The city was a perfect, flat target for killing as many innocent civilians as possible (as opposed to Nagasaki, where mountainous terrain reduced the comparitive effect of the A-bomb on it). Had America been defeated in WW II, its high command would have been brought up on, convicted of, and executed for crimes against humanity. The U.S. knew this. That’s why, at Nuremberg, American prosecutors did not go after leaders of defeated Nazi Germany for their aerial-bombardment atrocities deliberately committed against civilian populations during the war, because the U.S. had engaged in the same barbaric tactics.



Edited 15 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 04:23PM by steve benson.

Interesting history. Thanks for sharing.

One of my children has visited Nagasaki and Hiroshima both, and their museums. I don't believe either city has fully or will ever recover from the effects of the bombs dropped on them. How could they?

One of my Jewish Holocaust survivor cousins was one of the lawyers at the Nuremberg trials following WWII. His only brother committed suicide in Australia following the war, and following being among the Dinera Boys (they both were exiled from England to Australia, with the other "Dinera Boys," who'd survived the war only to be accused of being spies in England. They weren't.) The brother left behind his wife and two daughters, both were in England at the time he died. One of his daughters has been a professor at Georgetown University, and a UN ambassador for Nigeria during her career. An interesting family considering the trauma they lived through, the ones who survived were able to carve out lives for themselves.

The trial lawyer for Nuremberg wound up in southern Florida as an international lawyer after the trials ended.

Japan welcomed more than 60,000 Jews to its shores during WWII. They settled in Kobe. Japan's rulers had formed what is known as the Fuju Plan to bring over 1 million Jews to Japan during and following the war, to help improve its overall infrasture through innovation and entrepreneurship. It was a secret policy known only to the highest levels of government.

Rabbi Marvin Tokajer served as the Chief Rabbi for the Asian countries in the 1970's and was based in Tokyo. It was there he learned of the story of the Fuju Plan from survivors of the Holocaust still living there, who shared their first hand experiences with him. It was from their wealth of information that formed the only book that has been written about the Fuju Plan, by Tokajer. A very interesting chapter of Japan's history, not only the history of WWII.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Rabbi Marvin Tokajer served as the Chief Rabbi for
> the Asian countries in the 1970's and was based in
> Tokyo. It was there he learned of the story of the
> Fuju Plan from survivors of the Holocaust still
> living there, who shared their first hand
> experiences with him. It was from their wealth of
> information that formed the only book that has
> been written about the Fuju Plan, by Tokajer. A
> very interesting chapter of Japan's history, not
> only the history of WWII.
>

Interesting name you've given it. I wonder if there is a fuju fish? There is definitely a fugu fish.

I think it was the "Fugu Plan", named in honor of the fugu fish. The idea being that Japan was going to try to 'ingest' Jews, for a hopefully good result, but it could possibly have a deadly result, just like sitting down to a meal featuring the fugu fish.

According to a Wikipedia entry, "Tokayer and Swartz base their claims on statements made by Captain Koreshige Inuzuka and allege that such a plan was first discussed in 1934 and then solidified in 1938, supported by notables such as Inuzuka, Ishiguro Shiro and Norihiro Yasue;[30] however, the signing of the Tripartite Pact in 1941 and other events prevented its full implementation.

Ben-Ami Shillony, a professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, confirmed the statements upon which Tokayer and Swartz based their claim were taken out of context, and that the translation with which they worked was flawed. Shillony's view is further supported by Kiyoko Inuzuka (wife of Koreshige Inuzuka).[31] In 'The Jews and the Japanese: The Successful Outsiders', he questioned whether the Japanese ever contemplated establishing a Jewish state or a Jewish autonomous region.[32][33][34]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_settlement_in_the_Japanese_Empire

Something that is probably beyond dispute is that there were political leaders in pre-war Japan who thought that the horse-shit contained between the covers of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was 100% true, and they, the Japanese, would benefit from befriending the Jews and thus share in all their wealth, resources and business acumen. The Japanese were hoping to hop onto the coattails of all those crafty, wealthy Judahcrats depicted in "Protocols..."

But it worked out for world Jewry by giving 18 to 20 thousand European Jews refuge in Japan, where for the most part they were allowed to live at the same level as residents of other non-Japanese peoples. Obviously in the latter years of the war, no one had it easy in Japan.

Fugu fish is also called puffer fish and it seems the Fugu Plan was puffed up by someone trying to ride a cash cow. You know how that is...

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> One of my children has visited Nagasaki and
> Hiroshima both, and their museums. I don't believe
> either city has fully or will ever recover from
> the effects of the bombs dropped on them. How
> could they?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfzvPsxGH4

You can't say the same for Detroit, spoils of capitalist and corporate greed.

If you ever visit Hiroshima you would want to stop at the Atomic Bomb Dome, one of the preserved remains from what occurred when the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. And then the memorials of the people who were vaporized when the bomb hit their city.

Comparing Hiroshima today to Detroit doesn't do justice to the effects of the bomb. The catastrophic health effects that lasted years afterwards, and the children born with deformities and mutations.

Detroit is a city that has crumbled from a failing economy and infrastructure, not from having an atom bomb dropped in the heart of its city. People were able to pack up and leave there. Hiroshima they had no chance or notice to vacate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Es9jknC28

This is a never ending debate but here's what we do know:


Germany never developed an atomic bomb and the remaining atomic physicists in Germany didn't have the money or the resources (nor the will). The first British, then American effort to build the bomb was borne out of the fear that Germany would do so first. That didn't happen.


Americans, especially Truman, were horrified by the high causality rates in the Okinawa invasion and fanatical resistance of the defending Japanese troops and civilian suicides.


The Japanese leadership were divided. Some wanted to end the war, some wanted to continue fighting.


From our modern viewpoint we often forget how racist the war was. At that time Japan was the only modern Asian country that had defeated a European power (Russia in 1905). Japan, just as Germany in the nineteenth century, wanted colonies for raw materials and sought to remove white Europeans and Americans and "free" Asia -- under Japanese leadership of course. There were lots of "yellow peril" newspaper articles and fiction in the decades before the war -- thus it wasn't difficult to demonise the Japanese as vicious vermin that had to be exterminated.


So, now imagine you are a high school graduate who worked in a men's hat store and ex-WWI Army captain named Harry Truman who accidentally becomes President and you are told about a new bomb that can destroy an entire city in a single, dramatic stroke.


There's some old quote about politics being the art of deciding between bad choices. You want to end the war quickly. The invasion might succeed initially with or without heavy casualties, but guerilla fighting might last for years as in the Philippines. The bomb might not have the indented effect -- Hamburg, Dresden and Tokyo have been flattened but bombing can only disrupt -- but not defeat -- an enemy. You are also worried about Stalin and his intentions and you want to send him a signal. Either way, hundreds of thousands of people will die.


It wasn't an easy decision. What would you do?


Fortunately there haven't been any other nuclear attacks since then. Contrary to what most people think, nuclear weapons are more like political terror devices and only have a limited role in warfare. The only reason that they are built is so that they will never be used.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 11:05AM by anybody.

. . . and provided basic reasons as to why they opposed their use against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In doing so, I barely scratched the surface of U.S military leadership pushback against the A-bomb drops.

My post was written in response to Amyjo’s bringing up the targeting of Hiroshima and Nagasaki’s civilian populations for atomic attack. I have been to both cities and lived in Hiroshima. I have talked to A-bomb survivors. One of my Japanese senseis in Hawaii prior to me proceeding to Japan on my mission was a bomb survivor who lost his mother and his brother in the firestorm that accompanied the atomic attack on Hiroshima. In Japan, I talked to an American scientist who was there studying the aftermath leukemia effects on Innocent noncombatant survivors of the bombs.

By August 1945, Japan was essentially defeated militarily. High U.S. military command realized that. An Allied invasion of the Japanese mainland was not necessary. Given those facts, I would have supported negotiating a surrender with Japan, since Japan was already beaten and was earnestly attempting to surrender through back channels.

In early 1946, Secretary of War Stimson wrote a nonsense piece for “Harpers” magazine, desperately trying to justify the A-bomb drops by making up, out of whole cloth, a figure of 1 million American KIAs that he claimed would have been suffered if an invasion of the Japanese homeland had been launched in order to bring about the surrender of an already vanquished enemy.

And while Truman openly and defensively attempted to justify the A-bomb drops, privately in his own diaries, he describef the A-bombing of Nagasaki as “murder.“ His word.

Bottom line: Militarily speaking, the atomic attacks on Japan were unwarranted and unnecessary. The United States’ official assessment of those bombings of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki publicly acknowledged that fact.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 03:13PM by steve benson.

and they also wanted a "virgin" target for maximum impact -- and to measure the effects.

. . . but their plea to Truman to not proceed with their use was deliberately sidetracked and did not reach the White House until after the bombs had been dropped. Even Truman himself was largely kept in the dark about the ongoing details of the operation’s pre-drop developments.

The aiming point in Hiroshima was a bridge in the heart of the city, with that drop point chosen and intended to kill as many civilians as possible—not to take out Hiroshima’s relatively minor military production plants. Several hundred grade-school children were literally vaporized in the area, as they were out in the streets helping to clear fire breaks. Given the wide and flat nature of the city, it was an ideal laboratory experiment for judging the effects of the bomb.

In the case of Nagasaki’s crosshairs, its A-bomb exploded over the largest Catholic Church in Asia.

I have been to the epicenters of both cities.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 01:22PM by steve benson.

If you do weapons work you are always cognisant of the fact that the ultimate aim of what you are doing is to kill the enemy. You also don't get to decide who "the enemy" are. That's a political and military decision that is beyond your control.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 01:17PM by anybody.

In case of a nuclear attack on Salt Lake City the best thing to do is to go down into your basement and go into your finished bathroom and hunker down into the tub with a mattress over you, and place your head firmly between your legs, then kiss your ass goodbye.

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In case of a nuclear attack on Salt Lake City the
> best thing to do is to go down into your basement
> and go into your finished bathroom and hunker down
> into the tub with a mattress over you, and place
> your head firmly between your legs, then kiss your
> ass goodbye.

Or you might awaken as a sewer rat or a mutant teenage ninja turtle.

It would be a strange new world for sure if that day were to come to pass.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 09:22PM by Amyjo.

Let's go through a few examples of the ditsy devotion of some to brain-dead legends of secret labyrinths and cities allegedly built by the Mormon Church under SLC's downtown streets.

SPOILER ALERT: Take it from a Tunnel Brat who knows something when it comes to the legend that will not die--those supposedly mysterious secret passageways running under the streets of Salt Lake Epicenter Central. Is there an underground city and other secret shenanighans operating beneath the surface of Zion for treasure-huntin'Joe and his merry band of hoodwinked Mormons to unearth?

The short answer is: Hell, no.

Now, for the rest of the story. Take a deep collective breath, clear your heads and let's talk Tales of the Tunnels.

In a previous RfM thread, poster "anon" asked the following:

"[Is the] City Creek project [an] underground city, money laundering operation?"

("city creek project--underground city, money laundering operation?, " by "anon," at "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 15 February 2011)


Not to be outdone, RfM poster "ex-sushi-chef" breathlessly addressed the subject as follows:

"Hi, everyone. Conspiracy show time again.

"'Someone seems worrying/anticipating if the flood comes to the city creek. . . .'

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,187769


"But, what about those subterranean tunnel network stuff, aren't they real???

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_underground18b.htm . . .

http://searchwarp.com/swa695264-A-Conspiracy-Of-Ufo-Aliens-And-United-States-Government.htm

"(Aren't there any 33+ degree masons among LDS??? Saw a webpage somewhere, says the current president 40th).

"The main reason so much money has to be spent is that probably church authories have had a clandestine deal to build underground facilities right below the mall to be a part of that network???

"Eventually going to hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains....to go into the clefts and the holes of the rocks and into the tops of the ragged rocks and the caves of the earth???

"Rocks of the mountains' mean Rocky Mountains, Denver, Salt Lake, etc.???"

("underground bunker/shelter below the new mall for a few, chosen elite families???," by "ex_sushi_chef," at "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 12 May 2011)


Surely you jest.

While I don't have the insider pooper-scooper regarding allegations of Mormon money laundering shenanigans, I think I can say with some degree of reasonableness based on personal experiences that wild speculations about a supposed nuclear bomb-proof city complex reposing under the streets of SLC only makes critics of the Mormon Church with legitimate points of view look like nutwads rivaling LDS believers in Kolobian glory.

I say this as someone who worked for a Salt Lake City-based demolition company back during part of my BYU days in the 1970s, where we tore down a bunch of junk in downtown SLC to make way for the then-Crossroads Mall. There were dozers and hosers and a big, gaping, squared-off hole that could easily be viewed by the passing public, so I don't see how some kind of Secret City of the Saints could be built without folks getting wind of a whole lot of strangeness goin' on).

Anyway, allow me to pass on here infor about some of the actual underground "facilities," if you will, that do exist under the roads in downtown SLC (at least info about the ones that I have personally experienced). I'm talking about the Mormon tunnel system (such as I traveled it) running under Temple Square and connected to Mormon Church offices in downtown Salt Lake City. I traversed the main tunnel several times over the years.

As I recall, it ran from underneath the Tabernacle on Temple Square over to the Church Administration Building. It was relatively wide, wall-to-wall carpeted, well-lit and could easily accomodate a golf cart (which was, in fact, used to transport GAs and other Church dignitaries and personnel back and forth).

But don't let any of this get in the way of a good story. Undeterred by those little things known as "facts," another RfM poster from Beyond the Veilm calling themselves "Someone," offered up the following:

"OK, Mockers, [s]hortly after I joined the Church in the 80's, several members from my Ward in another State travelled to SLC for GC. While we were there, we took a tour of Temple Square, and a guided tour through the underground tunnels.

"While we were going through the main tunnel (and it was as S. Benson described), a door opened off to the right which was behind me, and a man walked out zipping up his pants - unaware that there was a group of people touring the tunnel at the time.

"The room he walked out of was PINK. I could see the color of it above the opened door. I assumed it was a bathroom, but I thought it odd that a men's bathroom would be painted pink. I thought no more about it until later.

"Just past that door, IIRC - there was a small, ancient-looking wooden door with a half-moon arch at the top, and with an odd door handle. It was taped off in an 'X' with yellow warning tape. I asked the tour guide what it led to, and she didn't know. Her lack of curiousity is something I've learned is characteristic of many Mormons.

"I read a book several years ago called "Men in Derision" which is where the story of the "Pink Room" was first printed. It's about the practice of Satanism by some of the 12/15.

"Just sayin' ...."

("OK, Mockers," by "Someone," on "Recovery from Mormonism discussion board, 14 March 2013)


To which I responded:

"Who allegedly gave you this guided tour and how did they arrange it? (P.S.: Answering 'someone' doesn't count).

"I went through the tunnel several times over the years and saw no 'guided tours' being given. The tunnel was used by GAs and their families for quick transit, either by foot or wheeled cart, as well as by other employees of the Mormon Church, and was not a tourist attraction through which guides were shepherding out-of-state ward groups.

"Speaking of which, what was your state, what was your ward, and why aren't you saying?

"Finally, this alleged 'Pink Room' that you claim you saw was, you say, located off the main tunnel? But the story is that it was actually in the temple itself and was supposedly built during the presidency of Wilford Woodruff.

"Why can't you get your story straight? Answer: Because you've made it up."

("Who allegedly gave you this guided tour and how did they arrange it? [P.S.: Answering 'someone' doesn't count]," by Steve Benson, "RfM," 14 March 2013)


For the record, during Mormon General Conference, I would sometimes accompany my grandfather Ezra Taft through the tunnel, pushing his wheelchair or walking along with family and staff who were with him. The walk through this tunnel took about 5 to 10 minutes at a leisurely pace.

I would be in the tunnel with ETB when, in his later years and due to his frail health, he would exit the Conference sessions at the top-of-the-hour rest song, when the congregation would rise to their feet for a break from the sermonizing before dropping back on their faithful posteriors for the second half of indoctrination.

I'd sit in the front congregational rows in the Tabernacle (reserved for GA families, as unfair as that was) until ETB got up and left, assisted by handlers who would escort him out. ETB would be helped off the dais, waving weakly, and members of the Benson family would likewise exit (without waving, by the way). We'd meet up with him in the back area, out of sight behind the out-front stage area where the GAs perched during Conference. There we'd join him and his assistants in wheeling him through the underground tunnel on his eventual way over to where he lived at the Eagle Gate condo that was across the street from Temple Square. If his assistants got ETB out ahead of us, we'd simply make our own way out of the Tabernacle and go over to his apartment.

By then, ETB's staff had wheel-chaired him into his small, private study, where they would place him in a soft, leather reclining chair. They would then either turn on the TV for the second half of Conference or merely play soft music for him to listen to.

There is actually nothing dark or secret about that beneath-the-street tunnel--and I saw nothing branching off from it that appeared to go to Zionic bomb shelters, restricted-access laundry rooms, or a mini-city honeycomb of subterranean dwelling places for the Mormon elite in the event of an attack by Satan on God's Chosen Ones.

Geezus, people, it's essentially an underground traffic-way constructed for the convenience of and use by the Mormon high command, their families, their support Church staff and connected Church employees that provides an efficient, quick and out-of-sight way of getting from point A to point B--one that is accessed through the Tabernacle on one end and an underground parking garage (complete with reserved parking spots for the GAs) on the other.
_____


No Indiana Jones mummies, skulls, snakes or kidnap victims. For all the sci-fi-pie-in-the-sky Illuminati types, sorry for the inconvenient illumination (although I imagine it could be kinda freaky if you turned the lights off).

In the meantime, don't step into any open Salt Lake City manholes. Those child-eating Restored Church Reptilians might get you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QyoRzZrF00



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 11:41AM by steve benson.

You're no fun, Steve...

It wouldn't have had to be created to be a bomb shelter to serve as one during an attack. Schools and hospitals can double as fallout shelters if their walls are thick enough to withstand fallout.

An underground tunnel system could make such a shelter if it meets certain criteria.

My high school in Ogden, Utah was one such fallout shelter. It's still standing.

The Salt Lake City YMCA is a non-functioning fallout shelter to this day. The sign is still posted outside its entrance.

It isn't a conspiracy theory to try to withstand an attack. Plans have been in place since during the Cold War. With the advent of a new Cold War looming, and terrorist threats, it is a real enough threat to wonder where safe zones might exist.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 09:17AM by Amyjo.

. . . as if there is some kind of bizarre, super-secret underground system of tunneled trails and hierarchy hideouts that the Mormon Church is trying to keep from the knowledge of those living above ground.

I'm not the one peddling it, but since you asked, I quoted those who are peddling it in their own bizarre forms and fashions.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 09:36AM by steve benson.

The tunnels are no secret though. It's well known they exist. They are underground and could make for shelters in event of war. Even if not a fallout shelter per se. Subway tunnels are fallout shelters for the same reason.

I have dealt with their stupid clams head-on. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to validate their bizarre assertions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 11:45AM by steve benson.

As a former fallout shelter manager let me provide this.

First a fallout shelter will not protect you from a direct hit of a nuclear bomb. The purpose of the shelter is to protect you from the after effects of a nuclear detonation.

The bomb itself may be detonated many miles away. The debris from this detonation rises into the atmosphere and depending on the wind spreads over a large area.

The three types of radiation, Alpha, Beta and Gamma have different intensities and require different types of protection.

Most focus is on the gamma particles. The main protection is layers of earth and concrete. But the second factor is time.

The particles decay at various rates over time becoming less than lethal and eventually we are able to function outside again.

This requires a shelter to have food, water, sanitation and medicine for up to two months.

Without this, your shelter is nothing more than a tomb.

Some time in the early 80s I did my last inventory and sent off the expired food and medicine for destruction. I took down the fallout signs from the building.

So yes you may shelter in any undergroud structure in an emergency. But no, depending on the distance and the materials used in the bomb will you survive in the long run without supplies.

Thanks for the info. Agree an underground bunker or tunnel could easily turn into a tomb depending on outcome. There really aren't too many places to hide from the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Although the mountains surrounding SLC would provide a buffer from fallout if the epicenter wasn't in or near the city itself.

The mention of the needed supplies in the CD shelter makes me wonder if the GAs have their own food storage like they badger the members to have?

The general authorities and their families will be well protected in those underground tunnels between the COB and the temple, in the event that such protection is needed. But the average person on the streets above will die of radiation exposure.

That sounds about right. I cannot imagine them letting in others, because that would be so well Christian a thing to do. Or Jewish. Definitely not a Mormon GA trait.

. . . by a typhoon.

Black, nuclear-radiated rain fell upon the people and upon the streets—streets that could not be washed clean of the death shadows of the bomb victims, who were completely vaporized, leaving an embedded residue of carbon in the shape of their disintegrated bodies.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 09:44PM by steve benson.

Children are fascinated by stories of tunnels and caves. See Tom Sawyer, or any Indiana Jones movie. All the blather about SLC fallout shelter tunnels is, as Steve B pointed out, much ado about not much.

Also, any major city in a place that has a cold winter will have underground steam tunnels downtown for providing heat to the downtown office buildings. They are big enough to walk through. Even Provo and BYU have underground utility tunnels, so a city doesn't have to be very big to have such things. I attended university in central Canada for a couple of years. All the major buildings were interconnected by underground utility tunnels that were also used as pedestrian walkways between buildings.

A 3/4 block tunnel fitted out for pedestrian use between the Church Administration Building and the SL Temple would not be a big deal. Even extending it another ¾ block to Eagle Gate Condos would not be that big a deal.

A fallout shelter to be worth anything would need airtight doors, a filtered air ventilation system with its own power source to run the ventilation machinery. And a largish supply of food and water. Most of the public fallout shelters from the Cold War era were basically Kabuki theater. They were a stylized dance that would not have worked in the real world.

Amyjo missed a military target - the new NSA server farm buildings south of Bluffdale. Other than that, Hill AFB is the only military target that amounts to much of anything. Taking out the state capitol and the HQ of LDS Inc might be worth the trouble just for the amount of fear and panic it would create.

If there were a nuclear attack near SLC, a few weeks or months holed up in a tunnel would not be much of a solution.

Isn't the NSA server farm part of the National Guard training site that is part of Camp Williams?

It is highly classified for sure.

It would be a major "target" in its own right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 03:04PM by Amyjo.

Poor old SLC...

You've doomed it! Foreign agents who faithfully read RfM now know how valuable a target it is. It didn't really matter with regard to Russia, since they have enough bombs to target every American city with a population greater than 100,000. But now smaller, less well armed enemies, such as Iran & N. Korea, may decide to spare a missile for SLC.

. . . which, at that time, ran under the quad (and which, of course, still do, although this was around the time they put in the Harold B. Lee Library in the same general area). I was able to do this subterranean tour thanks to a friend of mine who was a member of BYU security. We popped up close to the Brigham Young statue in the middle of the night.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 05:20PM by steve benson.

I've mentioned here before my experience in working in some of the underground tunnels and subterranean facilities under temple square and what used to be the street that ran next to temple square.

First of all there are the under ground parking structures that are a couple stories underground. On the first underground level is what is probably the largest Flower Shop in the state....it's where all the fresh flower arrangements are made for all the buildings at temple square and the cob. As you go down other levels (these are about under that huge reflecting pool between the temple and the cob) the lower levels house the various maintenance shops...ie...electrical, construction, plumbing, etc.

From the second level, where the flower shop is....you can enter doors that lead to the temple basement and a tunnel that runs along the side of the temple.(I actually met Elder L. Tom Perry in this tunnel one day) there are doors along that corridor opposite the tunnel ...these doors lead to a very long steam tunnel...which was built decades ago and brings steam from the "Central Plant"...located 2-3 blocks away to the buildings on Temple Square and the cob...then main tunnel
turns at the end of the temple and proceeds along the other wall across the street and into the new conference center and the other underground parking lot under that conference center.

This old steam tunnel was replaced about 12 years ago with a new one...several feet deeper and adjacent to the old steam tunnel. The new tunnel has a 36 inch diameter steam pipe and the tunnel itself is about 7-8 feet tall with an arched ceiling and it's about 8 feet wide. I worked on waterproofing the tunnel segment joints.

Over near the old assembly hall are some openings thaa lead down to some more maintenance facilities that are underground....not sure of any tunnels there or not.

In 1969 when I went into the mission home...a friend and I were walking through the visitor center...the one with the Christus statue....we were on the bottom floor when a wall opened up and out walked a maintenance worker...we got talking to him and he informed us that he had just came from the tabernacle...through a tunnel....he took us into it, closed the hidden door behind us and took us to the tabernacle....we entered it in the basement...which ad a lot of old chairs stored in it...he showed us the rawhide bindings that the construction was famous for and some of the rooms in the basement where translation was done during conference....pretty interesting little unofficial tour!!

Very cool.

:)

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/15/us/chicago-s-well-kept-secret-tunnels.html

https://europeforvisitors.com/berlin/articles/underground-berlin.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca_Maxima


https://www.ancient.eu/article/882/roman-tunnels/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 11:38AM by anybody.

Does Salt Lake City downtown sewer system double as mormon church headquarters ?

Yes and no.

Every city has one. Sewer system that is.

If the Americans had lost World War II, it wouldn’t have worked very well for them, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2018 09:49PM by steve benson.