Back in the day, I was growing up in New England. My Mormon convert friend took a trip with her church group to visit the newly built temple in Washington, D.C. I could tell from her comments at the time that it was a very special event for them. Now, there are temples in Boston, Hartford, New York City, and Philadelphia. A temple in New England and the mid-Atlantic for most people is no more than a few hours away at most.

I was just looking at the map that shows the temples all over the world. The U.S. looks saturated. South America and Europe look saturated. The only real areas for real growth are in Africa and to a certain extent, Asia.

It makes me wonder what church authorities have in mind. When will enough be enough? What are their plans for future temples given the membership figures? Let's say there are about 6 million active LDS. The Mormon church is sinking a lot of tithing dollars into temple construction. Obviously, they expect a certain payout from active members who (in part,) want to access a nearby temple.

Are they looking to have temples in every mid-size to large city of note? Are they eventually aiming for smaller cities as well? And when on Earth will they be finished with building temples in Utah? Ever?

At what point does the growth in temple construction become unsustainable?

This is very good observation. I have wondered the same thing. I know that the St Louis temple was the main Midwest temple for many years (prior to that it was Dallas). Prior to the KC temple, the St Louis temple was having huge problems with attendance. The cafeteria was close in the basement, local KC wards were hit up to staff and attend that temple very month. If there are 30 units in the greater KC region - each ward unit was asked to pick a day to attend the St Louis temple, including the 8 hour round trip trek, all day sessions, etc. THEN the KC temple was announced, which made everyone say, "Buttttt what about the St Louis temple, which can barely stay open the way it is w/o our help?" (more or less was the resonating feeling).

Anyway, here hoping saturation is happening all over the world. Keep announcing those grand edifices Q15 every conference. I know they need to do this for the allusion of progress, but eventually it will back fire...I have my pop corn ready.

On the other hand, maybe they don't care if the temple(s) are used only once a week? Perhaps the building is the allusion - and that's all they need to keep the sheepie in line. I suppose it is the temple workers/presidencies etc, who know the truth about poor temple attendance - and maybe they don't care having had their 2nd anointing's.

Here's to the International House of Handhakes!!! Hip Hip Hooray.

As Mazzeppa said in Gypsy, "You gotta have a gimmick."

The temples are what sets Mormons apart from other religions. With the secrecy and no "gentiles" being allowed inside, it gives an air of mystery intended to provoke curiosity, wonder and awe. For the members themselves going to the temple gives them a feeling of being in on a secret, of being part of the ultimate "in crowd. So this gimmick is a double whammy. And as a bonus, the members are pressured to attend temple, which means they must get a recommend, which means the must pay tithing. Ka-ching.

Just like anything else in life you play up your best asset. For Mormons the best asset is not only the Temple, but that is about all they have.

God's only true church should be unique and different, set apart from all others. No?


"Once I was a schlep
Now I'm Miss Mazeppa!
With my revolution in dance.
You gotta have a gimmick
If you wanna have a chance."

If you're gonna bump it,
Bump it with a trumpet!

I think your right. If you notice, the latest couple of temples announced in the last couple years seem to be in Africa/Asia. There are still some temples being built/announced for the Americas - but for example - Thailand, India, Zimbabwe, Congo, Japan, Russia. These are all recently announced/completed temples. Eventually they will be over saturated there as well.

I have wondered - TSCC has always said that they wanted to make “Temple blessings” accessible to everyone - geographical speaking. There are many places were the nearest temple still requires at least one overnight stay - and more realistically two nights. For this reason, many people only go 2x a year and maybe on a holiday if they are close enough to one.

In my case - nearest temple is Edmonton Alberta. 7hr drive one way. Next temple north of me is the Anchorage temple. Will there come a point when temples go back to be kinda like an endowment house in rural areas? A separate plain building on ward or stake grounds dedicated as a temple? Used only on a appointment or case by case basis? Traveling ordinance workers? Traveling sealers? What about a seperate sealed off portion of a stake Center used as a temple with just a simple endowment room and sealing room? If you strip down the temple to the basics, one could get away with a ward style baptistery, one endowment room, one sealing room, the veil and a very toned down “celestial room”. All of this could fit in less room than it takes to build a ward building.

I think Nelson wants to be the prez who gets them to 200 temples just as Hinckley was the one who got them to 100. Currently the roster is 189 (159 operating, 11 under construction, 19 announced) so that may happen in the next decade. I guesstimate by 2030 (200th anniversary of the church) they'll be at 200 and they'll make a big to-do about it.

After that it's going to be mostly closures renovations and public reopenings as they're starting to do now. There's about 12 currently closed or set to be closed for renovation. This will become more of a thing as the numbers of temples and their age increases.

"200 years ... 200 temples"

I can see that being a p.r. thing

All temples have a chapel, right?

Could it be that as they shrink wardhouses will be sold and there will come a day that there will only be temples?

They seem to have a secret long term strategy of some kind going here.

I would be on the other side of the "Long Term Plans" discussion. I think the church started out looking to mostly the D&C for their day to day strategies, but that pretty much was a crap out.

I think they're making it up as they go along. The Nov., 2016 decision regarding how to treat the gay parents with kids debacle speaks to this being likely.

And they really dodged a bullet by ending formal revelations to be added to the D&C.

I sincerely believe that they are making it up as they go along.

I suspect that temple building is a cash cow for the GA's. If all of the construction companies were owned by the GA's then they can announce the temple, have their own companies underbid everyone else (with the understanding that change orders can hike the construction costs back up) and they rake in the profits.

Years ago when the San Diego temple was announced my father (who was a General Contractor) put in a bid and was underbid by a LOT. Some construction outfit from Utah got the bid and they undercut everyone else. So...how does an out-of-state company think they are going to build something so much cheaper than everyone else?

There is money to be made by this and it isn't being made by us.

The miracle of the Change Order...

I am convinced that the saturation point of temple attendance has started. There is evidence that temple attendance has declined in the last 20 years. Every year the local temple puts out it's schedule.When I was still a member, I noticed that there were fewer sessions listed.

Also, the newer temples are generally smaller. I attended several temples (hundreds of sessions) when I was a member, about 10, one in Switzerland, the rest in the US, as I recall.

Historically, religions thrive on rituals that require some detachment from logic and rational thought. The more bizarre, the more the faithful think they are solidifying their attachment to their deity.

That may be why the LDS Church is making progress in Africa and Asia. They have a long history of rituals that are shocking to our sense of propriety.

My initial reaction at my marriage was one of shock and would not return. Eventually, I did, under great pressure oh so subtly applied, I might add. Somehow, I became able to find them innocuous. Amazing what the mind will do when convinced we must show our allegiance: faithfulness,worthiness to receive the blessings from Heavenly Father. The fact that thousands of other people were doing it, it couldn't be all that wrong, right? (Wrong!)

My guess is that in the next 50 years, a lot of the LDS buildings will be sold and used for other purposes. There is evidence that has happened with some all ready.

Of course, the driving force is money. No money no church. The tax exclusion has allowed them to build what is estimated to be a multiple billion dollar empire, (financial reports not disclosed anymore), one way or another even though they are well ensconced with financial stability.

The LDS Church must continue to find new members to keep collecting money with the 10% tithe,which along with other requirements assures the faithful of their place in an eternal kingdom with their family. That's powerful religious control.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2018 03:08PM by susieq.

Posted by: susieq ( )
Date: April 21, 2018 03:00PM

"Of course, the driving force is money. No money no church."
=============================================

Bingo.

Considerable expense construction and operation. White elephants.
Construction rate would be a reasonable, if indirect, indicator of corporate health (especially since there is sudden sensitivity to population data). When construction data is ultimately obscured (because curve has flattened), it will be an indication all is not well.

Since a massive construction program requires considerable time for implementation, reasonable to conclude the recent boom was from a time when projections were optimistic, as contrasted to actual circumstances now. Its possible that, contrasting projections vs. reality, they are already in a hole.

Given the last known population data and employing reasonable parameters it would not be an impossible task to "reverse engineer" how close the building program has put them to the hole. --Aaaaaand not talking golf.


Edit: "hole" in this sense is that point at which temples become negative cash flow, costing more to maintain than they are bringing in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2018 04:54PM by zenjamin.

Everything oversaturates eventually especially when making money is involved. But sometimes oversaturation bites you in the @ss.

Summer, I’ve wondered the same thing—a couple of weeks ago, i drove by 10 Morg temples. (It’s easy to do in Utah.)

What’s very noticible is that the newer temples are built to look big. And, they need frequent repairs. Gone are the days of granite, limestone, or solid construction.

There are a couple of temples—Newport Beach, CA and Monticello, UT—where the stake centers next to them have lots more parking and square footage. Maybe the Morg will design a new multi-purpose temple/stake center?

Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: April 21, 2018 04:54PM

"What’s very noticible is that the newer temples are built to look big. And, they need frequent repairs. Gone are the days of granite, limestone, or solid construction."
================

Now, this is very interesting.

Suggests the corporation is already truly feeling the squeeze - and not that kind of affectionate squeeze, rather the python kind.
A robust confident company doesn't skimp. Visit the multifloor skyscraper offices of a successful law firm and it's evident.

Also suggests desperation, a long gamble -- they have to know: buildings constructed cheaply all at once, come down all at once.

Incipient starvation alters behavior.

The Mormon church is really a real estate investment firm

So is the scientology church. Study their model. They build stuff with not enough people to fill them but they still make money.

Scam. Fat cats with dark suits and dark money

Mootman and Praydude are right.

Mormonism is all a big scam. Things don't make sense, because TSCC is lying, and hiding its financials and membership numbers. They are also lying about their motives. D'ya reeeealy think LDS, Inc. is about saving souls. D'ya really think the leaders and contractors believe this?

Look at the land underneath the temples. That's where the money is! The buildings are shoddily maintained by the MEMBERS--slave-labor janitors and landscapers. Older construction workers are called on "work missions." A TBM neighbor, who is a retired contractor, has served work missions in Hawaii, Samoa, and Tonga, and I don't know the last place. He would take his strong sons along with him, for a year or so, or for a summer. FREE LABOR.

Look at the location of the land--prime view lots in the best residential areas. We live near three of those "stake houses", where real estate is at a premium. There one diminishing ward per "stake house." These stake houses will never go, because of the value of the land. They have enormous parking lots--more land, less maintenance. Our old ward has members driving up from lower Holladay and Midvale, near State Street. TSCC claims that these people's ward is "closed for rennovation." It's on land that is not as valuable. The members have to drive about 5 miles up the mountain, to attend the view-lot wards. They don't live anywhere near the ward.

I don't think the cult really needs tithing money all that much--it needs free labor to maintain its real estate holdings. Africa, to them, is a wealth of free labor. The cult's other businesses are supporting the leaders just fine.

Maybe a McTemple build by GA relatives and maintained by members is as cheap as advertising--plus, they cult gets the land TAX-FREE. The building is a write-off. My SIL was offered a job with McConkie-Whatever law firm, that works for LDS,Inc., and he refused, because of ethical differences.

My son says that the Mormon cult is a "regime." Each temple-with-parking-lot is like a little Mormon-ruled island, like an embassy, in all of the countries. Their motives are money, power, arrogance, ego, and to show-off. LOL--Mormons complain about the gawdy architecture, and how temples stand out like a blight on the land, and never seek to blend with the surrounding landscape or culture. That's not the point. TSCC wants to show-off! They want world domination!

I, too, and hoping the Mormon cult will overextend themselves. They do seem to be overstepping their bounds, the way they are treating the Africans. I don't think Mormons will get away with slave labor over there--you wouldn't think--but they have gotten away with polygamy and murder in the past....

"In Your Face" architecture!

Everything about the cult is a facade--including the fake-marble-over-plywood facades in front. It's cheap to keep replacing the warped, moldy wood. TSCC has an excuse to close the temple, hire a few GA cousins and labor-missionaries, and have the slave members do the rest. No big deal.

Planned obsolescence!

Anoculus might be right. The temples might be the last to go.

Mother Who Knows Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "In Your Face" architecture!
>
> Everything about the cult is a facade--including
> the fake-marble-over-plywood facades in front.
> It's cheap to keep replacing the warped, moldy
> wood. TSCC has an excuse to close the temple,
> hire a few GA cousins and labor-missionaries, and
> have the slave members do the rest. No big deal.
>
>
> Planned obsolescence!
>
> Anoculus might be right. The temples might be the
> last to go.

When they do i want to be a part of the demolition team. The destructive badass.

You are spot on with the tax write-offs! The depreciation schedules alone make temples worth it.

In countries outside of the US there are laws about charitable money leaving the country and the temple write offs are great at showing them the church isn't making as much money as it seems.

Some time ago, I think. These things are being subsidized by Salt Lake City.

Add me to the list of wondering the same thing. I was asked to come to Haiti and work in an orphanage, which I considered.(Mormon acquaintance) I did some research and found there was a new temple built at the end of 2017 in Port-Au-Prince. These people need clean drinking water,for one thing, not learning about a white guy who found golden plates in NY. Turns out this was a thinly veiled missionary project. BTW, Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere and I'm sure the LDS church will be asking for tithing.