I don't want to derail the conversation in Amyjo's thread, but there are some important clarifications which need to be made about Israel and "the Palestinians," because this is an inherently extremely complicated subject, and knowing the basics is essential to understanding what is going on.

Here goes [taking a deep breath here ;) ] ...

The statistics as of 2013 (the year of the best statistics I could find):

Jews: 6.5 million in Israel

Palestinians in Israel: 1,658,000...which means: 20.7% of the Israeli population, and "[the] majority identify as Arab or Palestinian by nationality, and ISRAELI BY CITIZENSHIP." [Another way of saying this is: "...of the 1.5 million ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, 'hundreds of thousands' identify as Palestinians."]

"Israeli by citizenship" is important because it means that these Palestinian CITIZENS OF ISRAEL (as is true of anyone who holds Israeli citizenship) can vote in Israeli elections.

Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens can become Israeli citizens (without any change of religion) through naturalization...

...and, in addition, Palestinians who chose to convert to Judaism can (because of the Israeli "Law of Return" which is 'the' fundamental law of the State of Israel) demand Israeli citizenship (as is equally true of 'any' Jew, worldwide--though, in real life, there are some limited exceptions for secular-legal/Jewish-law/sensible reasons).

Israeli citizens include not only Jews and Christians and Muslims, but also members, or those who self-identify as members, of the following groups (and this is not a comprehensive list):

Atheists
Arab Muslims
Bedouin
Ahmadiyya
Arab Christians
Copts
Druze
Syriac Christians
Arameans
Assyrians
Samaritans
Armenians
Circassians
Finns
Baha'is
(And, again, this is not a comprehensive list; there are other groups which are not included here, in this list I copied from quora.com.)

National elections aside, in MUNICIPAL elections (only), Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem can vote (whether or not they hold Israeli citizenship).

There are many Israeli Arab political parties in Israel, and Israeli Arab citizens (through a changing coalition of parties) have the third-largest representation in the Israeli Parliament.

Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens, but who are residents of Gaza or the West Bank, are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections because they are not Israeli citizens. (Though, if they wish, they can acquire Israeli citizenship directly through naturalization, or by first converting to Judaism--which happens sometimes, especially with marriages of non-Israeli citizen [Arab] Palestinians and Israeli citizens (particularly Jewish Israeli citizens).

The following is a partial list of the "Arab"/Palestinian political parties currently (according to Wikipedia) having elected members who are serving in the Israeli Parliament:

Arab Democratic Party
Hadash
Balad
Ta'al
United Arab List

There are other "Arab"/Palestinian political parties who currently exist, but did not get enough votes at the last election to elect at least one member of the current Israeli Parliament. As with all of Israeli politics, this is a perpetually fluid situation for everyone.

EDITED TO ADD: Although Israel has a compulsory requirement for (mostly: two year) service in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) for both male AND female Israelis, Israeli "Arabs" are not subject to this, although they CAN serve if they voluntarily choose to. According to the news reports, growing numbers of "Arab" Israeli citizens ARE choosing to serve in the IDF for a variety of reasons, some having to do with patriotism, and some having to do with practical considerations such as future careers.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2018 04:54PM by Tevai.

Tevai,

There is a difference between the situation in Israel proper and in the whole of Palestine, Jewish and Arab. The problem arises because the settlements represent intrusions of Jewish power into areas that are governed by, and recognized as the territory of, the Palestinian Authority. Every new settlement is thus a step towards a one-state solution as the rest of Palestine shrinks.

It's well established that, given the size of the two populations and their growth rates, the encorporation of Arab Palestine in a single state would soon result in an Israel in which Jews are in the minority. That is a serious problem given that most Arabs will not want to convert to Judaism or make other major cultural concessions in order to gain full citizenship. There would soon be a majority from an ethnic and religious group that faces systematic discrimination.

That notion of systematic discrimination may require further mention. Most countries, including the US and France, do a poor job of integrating large minorities--to put it mildly. But Israel is no better. Like you, presumably, I have spent time in the Arab parts of Israel in which people enjoy citizenship. You know when you enter one of those because the standard of living drops immediately. They are separate and unequal. We also know that the Ethiopian Jews who were airlifted in after problems in their homeland were for decades confined to tent cities and (I don't want to use the word ghetto for obvious regions) distinct neighborhoods. Israel has not done well at integration.

What I have been trying to say in this and the other threads is that a two state solution, perhaps with a common foreign policy mechanism and (if Israel is wise) aid and investment transfers is the best way to guarantee the country's security and its core values. The settlements are a problem, a threat, because they will change the demographic realities from what you describe above to a situation in which a minority of Jews rule de facto over a massive and aggrieved Arab population.

I don't think that is in anyone's interests.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai,
>
> There is a difference between the situation in
> Israel proper and in the whole of Palestine,
> Jewish and Arab. The problem arises because the
> settlements represent intrusions of Jewish power
> into areas that are governed by, and recognized as
> the territory of, the Palestinian Authority.
> Every new settlement is thus a step towards a
> one-state solution as the rest of Palestine
> shrinks.

I agree with this, and always have. In addition to the settlement-based land confiscation, I am (and always have been) very concerned about the person-based land confiscation which is going on--I do not "like" those who are doing these things and I think they are terrible Jews (and terrible for the Jewish people as a whole) when they do them.


> It's well established that, given the size of the
> two populations and their growth rates, the
> encorporation of Arab Palestine in a single state
> would soon result in an Israel in which Jews are
> in the minority.

Yes, this is one of the practical reasons the ultra-right "religious" crazies use to pressure their women into having ten-or-more child families...which means that they ALL grow up in, and live as adults in, poverty.


> That is a serious problem given
> that most Arabs will not want to convert to
> Judaism or make other major cultural concessions
> in order to gain full citizenship.

True.


> There would
> soon be a majority from an ethnic and religious
> group that faces systematic discrimination.

This is happening (and has "always" happened--since 1948) NOW, only the specific major targets in the past decades have been non-Orthodox Jews. That this would happen to Muslims, too, as soon as they reach "critical mass" is unquestionable.


> That notion of systematic discrimination may
> require further mention. Most countries,
> including the US and France, do a poor job of
> integrating large minorities--to put it mildly.
> But Israel is no better.

Right now, in 2018, I think Israel is doing a better job than the USA is in saving biological LIVES (I am thinking of Puerto Rico and Central America here). Cultural "integration" has never, ever, been an Israeli point of strength, and I do think that (over time) it has been an American point of strength (the Irish, the Jews, etc.). There is definitely a culture shock involved in going to Israel (whether for a trip or to live your life), and the "dugri" ("straight talk") style of Israeli life can be really hurtful...and very much against the humanity of integrating different cultures.

> Like you, presumably, I
> have spent time in the Arab parts of Israel in
> which people enjoy citizenship.

When I was in Israel, it was as a part of a group of American Hebrew school teachers, and the closest I got to "Palestinian life" was our Palestinian waiters in the various places where we ate...and in a bus, guarded by an ex-IDF guy with a gun, sort of "overlooking" Jericho (because I wanted SO MUCH to go there, and our tour guide said it was too dangerous). So other than getting reprimanded for saying "Todah" ("thank you") TOO MUCH to our Palestinian waiters, because it was deemed to be too typically "American" and not sufficiently "Israeli," that and my "trip to Jericho" were the sum total of my interaction with Palestinians while I was there.

> You know when you
> enter one of those because the standard of living
> drops immediately. They are separate and unequal.

Yes...but this is true of much of Israel as a whole. Affordable apartments are not necessarily "nice" apartments in Israel (there is tremendous demand for housing, and prices are comparatively extremely expensive by most American standards). What I did see was that Palestinians and Israelis of comparable socio-economic status seemed to live pretty much equal to each other. Unless people were wealthy (which mostly meant that they were immigrants from either North American or Western Europe), you just accept that the living standards for housing are substantially lower than would be true of most places in the USA.


> We also know that the Ethiopian Jews who were
> airlifted in after problems in their homeland were
> for decades confined to tent cities and (I don't
> want to use the word ghetto for obvious regions)
> distinct neighborhoods. Israel has not done well
> at integration.

I totally agree with this as a historical fact, but what I have learned in recent years is that integration in Israel is getting better. As a nation, Israel seems to be moving through "the steps" faster than was the truth here in the U.S., and there is a growing amount of Ethiopian/non-Ethiopian marriage going on, which is always a leading indicator of growing equality down the road a ways.


> What I have been trying to say in this and the
> other threads is that a two state solution,
> perhaps with a common foreign policy mechanism and
> (if Israel is wise) aid and investment transfers
> is the best way to guarantee the country's
> security and its core values.

I agree with this. I have always been a "Two State Solution" person (even when it wasn't cool ;) ).


> The settlements are
> a problem, a threat, because they will change the
> demographic realities from what you describe above
> to a situation in which a minority of Jews rule de
> facto over a massive and aggrieved Arab
> population.

This could happen...but it could also follow what is now the "Ethiopian lead." My main concern is the PERCENTAGE of Jews who are choosing to live in the West Bank for religiously ideological reasons, rather than economic (nice homes/nice communities/very good schools/nice amenities) ones.

I see the religiously ideological Jewish settlers as a significant and continuing threat to peace, and to peaceful co-existence. If someone really and truly believes, in their deepest heart of hearts and with every atom of their being, that GOD ("Himself") gave THAT land to THEM (solely), then the analogy would be, I think, the white Americans of the slavery era, who thought similar things and for very similar reasons.

Unfortunately, I do not see Israelis at any time looking at American history for pointers on how to avoid our most regrettable historical mistakes.

When "God" is your answer, you obviously don't need any practical help from people who have already, in many ways, been through a similar historical process.

A "Two-State Solution" is the best alternative I can see given the facts as they exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2018 05:56PM by Tevai.

I rarely disagree with you.

The Jews goals are longterm not short term for their other faith neighbors. They are slowly but steadily squeezing them out of existence as the Jewish population grows. The Arab population has been shrinking. This is true in the Christian settlements, not only the Muslim or Palestinian world there.

Israel emphasizes it is the only democratic loving country in the Middle East, and that is correct. But it doesn't really embrace other religions in its country. It does tolerate them, insofar as they don't infringe on Israeli rights and customs.

They really frown on Messianic Jews living in the Holy Land. They are probably the most discriminated religious sect in Israel, besides the Palestinians.

I'm going to add an excerpt from what Visitors Welcome wrote in the now-closed thread. He wrote:

--------

"the only solution will have to be a compromise. To me, Israel has a right to exist because of the promises made 100 years ago. And to me that includes Gaza and the West Bank. But we need to help the Arabs who do not wish to live in a jewish state. We should be able to make another desert bloom, this time for them.

For those, jews and Arabs, who DO want to stay where they are, I am sorry, but they will have to see eye to eye, negotiate, compromize. Or as we call it, belgiumize."

---------


What I am implicitly suggesting a variant of this. Both the Jews and the Palestinians, in my mind, have a right to live where they are. Not because of the Bible or the Koran (or even a stupid declaration by the British, who had no moral right to promise a "Jewish Homeland") but because they are human beings. The question is how can those two groups of human beings be organized so that Palestine (including Israel) is secure and outside agitators cannot destabilize it.

There are various ways to do that. One is VW's Belgian model of different groups living in a single state. That is good, though the same thing functioned beautifully in Lebanon and then collapsed under intense ethnic strife. If that could be rebuild, and if Israel-Palestine could function like that, I'd love it although I'm not sure either side wants to compromise on their cultural identity.

That leaves a looser confederation--Belgium light, if you will--in which the two states are domestically independent but run a coordinated external policy that prevents each of them from getting locked into hostile blocs. To put it brutally, Israel would be able to veto Palestinian foreign policies that jeopardize it or the bipartite confederation (if that is not too strong a word). The key is finding a formula that allows both peoples to live in peace and security without imposing a strict political hierarchy.

The key, I believe, is finding something between two fully independent states on the one hand and a single state on the other. The fates of the Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs are inextricably interwoven so, as VW explained, compromise is essential.

"two fully independence states on the one hand and single state on the other ("Belgium light") - seems implausible due to the Islamic hatred of "Zionists." It will never work.

This is what Haley told the UN Security Council today:

"Those who suggest that the Gaza violence has anything to do with the location of the American embassy are sorely mistaken, Rather, the violence comes from those who reject the existence of the state of Israel in any location."

I think she is right, Arab's, Islam, Palestians - reject the existence of Israel in any location, form, or cooperative dual nation existence.

It's not reasonable to ascribe a single political view to a large group of people. That is never correct.

There are Palestinians who reject the existence of Israel completely, Palestinians who really don't like Israel, Palestinians who hold personal grudges because they've lost relatives and land, and Palestinians who advocate cooperation. Every one of those flavors exists among Israelis regarding Palestinians as well. It is undoubtedly a tough nut to crack.

But the same was true in Northern Ireland, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium, Singapore, and many other places where internecine strife was overcome and stable polities constructed. Good statesmanship combined with the sagacious use of incentives and threats can, when circumstances are right, devise systems that work. The problem with what the US did in recognizing Jerusalem and moving the embassy to that city is that it makes the circumstances somewhat worse.

Your comparison of the Isaeli/Palestian conflict to similar European conflicts is "inapt." Apples and oranges.

"There are Palestinians who reject the existence of Israel completely, Palestinians who really don't like Israel, Palestinians who hold personal grudges because they've lost relatives and land, and Palestinians who advocate cooperation. Every one of those flavors exists among Israelis regarding Palestinians as well. It is undoubtedly a tough nut to crack."

This is a true depiction within the state of Israel no doubt, but those Palestinians who don't like Israel, combined w/ the majority of the Arab world will probably never allow a dual state as you described earlier. It is reasonable to ascribe a single political view to the majority (anti-semetic Arabs) which include the majority of the entire Arab/Islamic world. It is pure fantasy to think that "Belgium light" will ever work there.

Anon111 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is reasonable to
> ascribe a single political view to the majority
> (anti-semetic Arabs) which include the majority of
> the entire Arab/Islamic world.

Arabs are Semites.

I understand what you are saying, but normally "anti-semetic" means hostile or prejudiced against Jews, when I say "anti-semtic Arabs" I do in fact mean Arabs who are hostile or prejudiced against Jews. I understand that Arabs also speak the languages, etc, but that's not the context that I meant.

Let me get this right.

Lebanon did not work? It was not considered "the Pearl of the Orient?" Because if Lebanon worked for decades, some version of a shared power arrangement can surely work in Israel when (if) the underlying political dynamics evolve in the right direction.

The conditions are not right for something like that (it would have to be "something like that" because every viable formula is different for different countries) now. In fact, Washington's recent mistakes make a solution even less likely.

But geopolitical balances change. Attitudes are never permanent; interests change. That is the basis of politics. That is why Nixon could build a rapprochement with China, Reagan could work with Russia, East and West Germany could merge. To simply say that hatreds are inveterate and immutable is both wrong in human terms and myopic politically.

Anon111 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand what you are saying, but normally
> "anti-semetic" means hostile or prejudiced against
> Jews, when I say "anti-semtic Arabs" I do in fact
> mean Arabs who are hostile or prejudiced against
> Jews. I understand that Arabs also speak the
> languages, etc, but that's not the context that I
> meant.

This is true.

I think it is also important to realize, though, that on a practical basis, there is a significant (and growing) amount of Jews and Muslims who are working cooperatively to help each other. It is not uncommon that, when a synagogue or a mosque, or a Jewish community or a Muslim community, are "hit" by terrorists or are in need of assistance, that the "other" group will step in to help.

On a global political level, there can be (and are) significant divides, but if the cooperation is happening on a community level (and it IS), then maybe--a generation or two down the line--it will moderate the macro-politics.

In any case, on a human-to-human level, Jews and Muslims commonly step in to "protect each other's backs."

The problem boils down to impassioned people vying for the most prime real estate on earth, in their eyes. Palestinians believe it belongs to them, and want to drive the Jews out to the sea (literally.) The Jews claim it for their own, and compromise cannot happen in a vacuum. Their religious beliefs blind them to be able to co-exist peaceably. If it wasn't for their religion it would be cultural, ethnic and the politization of the land claim each side asserts.

Israel isn't going to back down because it has too much at stake, as in its very survival. From the ashes of the Holocaust they got Israel back as their homeland. They aren't going to parce it out to anyone else. The Palestinians seeks the destruction of Israel on the other hand. Neither side has the ability to compromise for the sake of their survival, or for peace.

Palestinians use the UN and public opinion to turn the world against Israel via a well organized propaganda machine backed by Israel's enemies. It's the modern day version of anti-Semitism. Rather than attacking and persecuting Jews individually as has been done historically, they persecute Israel the country instead. It isn't just the people Israel they want to eliminate. It is Israel, the country and return the whole land area back to Palestinian control. And that will never happen as long as Israel has a strong military defense and the US as its ally.

It also makes the conditions ripe for an all out regional confrontation, as in a 'perfect storm' is a brewing, and who knows where it will end?

Bingo...

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Palestinians use the UN and public opinion to turn
> the world against Israel via a well organized
> propaganda machine backed by Israel's enemies.
> It's the modern day version of anti-Semitism.

There's no doubt that *some* Palestinians do just that.
There's also no doubt that not all do, and that Israel does plenty of nasty things that merit criticism.

It's not "anti-Semitism" (modern or not) to criticize Israel's nasty actions. Valid criticism isn't because they're Jews, it's because of their actions -- and any government/people should be criticized for the same things.

I find it useful to distinguish between Jews and Isrealis whenever possible because the two groups, both in Israel and especially internationally, are very different. And the Israeli government, constructed of parties according to a constitution that gives extremists disproportionate influence, is yet a third distinct group.

"Palestinians in Israel: 1,658,000...which means: 20.7% of the Israeli population, and "[the] majority identify as Arab or Palestinian by nationality, and ISRAELI BY CITIZENSHIP." [Another way of saying this is: "...of the 1.5 million ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, 'hundreds of thousands' identify as Palestinians."]"

I'm unclear on how that math makes sense.

1: 1.658 million Palestinians in Israel
2: 1.5 million Arab Citizens of Israel
3. "hundreds of thousands" identify as Palestinians

If we take #2 and #3, there would be "hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Israel." But that's contradicted by #1.

#2 only counts those who are citizens of Israel; how many (who identify as "Palestinians") live in Israel or Israeli-controlled Palestinian territory and aren't citizens of Israel?

Sorry, just trying to figure this out. That particular part didn't make things very clear :)

The other piece is that those data, whatever they turn out to be, ignore the situation in non-Israeli Palestine. Israel is on the path to imposing a one-state solution, at which time Jews will be in the minority.

That is a situation that should be avoided.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The other piece is that those data, whatever they
> turn out to be, ignore the situation in
> non-Israeli Palestine. Israel is on the path to
> imposing a one-state solution, at which time Jews
> will be in the minority.
>
> That is a situation that should be avoided.

Unfortunately, the only way that this can be avoided is if the Government of Israel affirmatively chooses to avoid this.

And THAT means that the elected officials of the Government of Israel have to use their individual, voter-granted, power to avoid this.

And THAT means that the citizens of Israel who vote have to use their votes to avoid this.

And THIS is the problem...because ultimately, it is an unknown coalition of those who have been voted into power who must, either now or in the future, determine Israel's future, as granted by the Israeli electorate, vote-by-vote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2018 06:34PM by Tevai.

Yes.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Palestinians in Israel: 1,658,000...which means:
> 20.7% of the Israeli population, and " majority
> identify as Arab or Palestinian by nationality,
> and ISRAELI BY CITIZENSHIP." "
>
> I'm unclear on how that math makes sense.
>
> 1: 1.658 million Palestinians in Israel
> 2: 1.5 million Arab Citizens of Israel
> 3. "hundreds of thousands" identify as
> Palestinians
>
> If we take #2 and #3, there would be "hundreds of
> thousands of Palestinians in Israel." But that's
> contradicted by #1.
>
> #2 only counts those who are citizens of Israel;
> how many (who identify as "Palestinians") live in
> Israel or Israeli-controlled Palestinian territory
> and aren't citizens of Israel?
>
> Sorry, just trying to figure this out. That
> particular part didn't make things very clear :)

This was not my math. I was quoting statistics, and it is "day off" time here, so I was just trying to get the post written.

The stats themselves aren't what I was getting at, which was: There are lots of Arab/Muslim/Palestinian residents of Israel...a significant number of these are Israeli citizens...and, like any other citizen, they participate in the entirety of Israel's political system, from personal voting, to having largely "Palestinian"-oriented Israeli political parties, to electing members of the Israeli Parliament who represent THEM and THEIR specific interests, as an integral part of working for the welfare of Israel as a whole. (No different from American Congressional Representatives or Senators who work for their specific, "back home" constituents, as well as, simultaneously, for the welfare of the United States of America as a whole.)

Point taken.

If, however, that representation is a small percentage of the government body, and it consistently gets "outvoted" by the majority...it probably doesn't feel much like representation.

We sometimes (like right now, in congress) in the US have the same issues with the "minority" party. The difference is that our "minority" and "majority" parties change often, giving each side a chance to be butthead majorities (<grin>), and the state/local governments still have a fair amount of power, so local elections let the electorate feel their votes do make a difference.

But if we compare the situation in Israel with, say, the representation of African-Americans in the US 50 years ago, there's probably a lot of similarity. Back then, even though blacks made up noticeable % of the total population, they had little representation in the federal government (usually because district boundaries were contrived to prevent them getting a majority vote in any district), and felt powerless...