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Posted by: Brain Steamer ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:14PM

Having read through quite a few threads, I wanted to get some thoughts down on paper to share. I want to provide some input into how to break the cycle from Catholic to Mormonism to atheism.

I think a little history of myself is important to the discussion. My parents were converts and I was born into the church. I’ve lived in various states-including Illinois, Wyoming, Georgia, California and Nevada. I went on a mission to Brazil for two years (and still have fond memories). I joined the Army as a military intelligence language analyst. I’m currently living in Utah with my wife and three kids. I have a BS degree from a state university in Geology.

Personal apostasy:
I was on the straight and narrow my whole life, and relatively enjoyed the church most of the time. I enjoyed a healthy lifestyle and was generally happy. I was at the university computer lab one day and getting ready for a Sunday lesson, when google returned the website: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org.

Curious by nature, I went to the website and my mind was blown. ‘This can’t be real?’, ‘Surely this is anti-mormon propaganda.’. I remember back on my mission asking my mission president, ‘Why don’t we ever hear about Joseph Smith’s (JS) plural wives?’-to which he responded, ‘people get excommunicated for asking too many questions about JS’s wives.’ That really never settled well, but being the good mormon boy-I had tried to stay obedient.

I also remember a fellow missionary in the MTC that really struggled with evolution and saying ‘I know the church is true’. He just couldn’t say it and was looked at as the black-sheep in the class. No joke, we’d pray for him to have his testimony strengthened. Out in the mission field, I was his companion for a brief time and talked to him at length about evolution. I tried as hard as I could to make it work, but between the Book of Mormon and the letter from the first presidency “God Created Man in His Own Image” (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng), death could not have happened before Eve partook of the fruit 6-7,000 years ago.

The more I studied geology in college, the more I realized evolution was true. I could know it! I could see the proof, and the ironic thing is it’s so easy to study here in Utah. In geology alone, you have biostratigraphy (aging units by similar fossils), chronostratigraphy (deposition chronology), magnetostratigraphy (magnetic properties during deposition), and seismic stratigraphy (deposition, then things shift). Then you have physics, chemistry, and biology, which also confirm evolution is true. Anyway, everywhere you go here in Utah you find rocks that are millions, often times hundreds of millions of years old-and there is evidence of life in them.

I was deployed to Iraq for a few years during the Iraq war. For those who are angry at the church for taking your tithing and a few years of your life while on a mission-If that’s the worst this life threw your way, I envy you. Even still, I’m actually thankful for the experiences I had over there. I think the most important thing I learned was that an analytic mind saves lives. I finally decided to stop doubting my doubts and wake up to the fact that my life depends on my brain. I have to analysis things in order to feel safe.

My wife had a different experience, especially during the deployments. There were a lot of people, mormons and non-mormons that came to her aide. She would have been lost without a community coming together to support-and I will always be thankful to those people. Point being, though, she was given an experience that made community acceptance vital to her existence. Even though she emotionally vomits thinking of polygamy and many things they say about ‘being given to a righteous man in the hereafter’, she has to stay connected in the neighborhood to feel safe.

With that, over the last few years we’ve been slowly backing out of the church. It came to a head when I was finishing up the final year of college. The elder’s quorum president came to me and tried to grill me with questions about why I hadn’t been doing my home teaching. I started with, ‘it’s been really busy, etc…’ but after continued questions I finally stated, ‘I have a testimony that home teaching is a crock of crap. Over the last ten years, I’ve been deployed three times, moved twice, had three kids, had a major sickness-and I did that without any home teachers. I know I can be okay without the home teaching program.’ … I was promptly released from my Sunday school calling without even a thanks from the pulpit.

Since that point, I’ve been going occasionally with my wife. As long as she goes and the family goes, I’ll go with them.

Now down to the meat:
My “problem” is that during discussions, my wife is concerned that without the church, our kids will end up in despair and heartache, not having any hope or happiness. I have also seen it in her, too, because it’s been engrained in her that ‘it’s either all true or none of it’s true’. There will be pain and despair that comes with looking at this logically and growing to trust in yourself. But I don’t want my family to get stuck in a mindset that we have to accept atheism to break free of the church.

I’ve been trying to have impact lessons on hikes and drives. Little teaching moments that life is important, you are important, I will love you, there is evidence that a force is driving life, etc… How have you (the general reader) worked to keep things positive? Moving out of Utah isn’t an option…

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:35PM

>> "My “problem” is that during discussions, my wife is concerned that without the church, our kids will end up in despair and heartache, not having any hope or happiness. I have also seen it in her, too, because it’s been ingrained in her that ‘it’s either all true or none of it’s true’."

I get tired of mormons wondering how anyone can find happiness without the church. I see it like this.....

Non-mormon: Well, life kinda sucks right now, got some debts to clean up, one of my kids is off the rails, but you know, I have a good life and am really quite happy and content with it, and I know the issues I'm struggling with will pass and I'll be fine. Life is good :)

mormon: Well life kinda sucks right now. I'm drowning in debt, I have too many kids too close in age, my husband is always gone at meetings, the RS president is gossiping about me, the 'ministers' are snooping around my house and life, and I have to clean church toilets every month, but you know (sob, sob) I have a good life (sob, sob) and I'm really quite happy and content with it (sob, sob, sob) and I know the lord will bless me as long as I endeavor to persevere and I'll be fine (whaaaa, sob, sob, whaaa) and I'll be fine, I WILL be fine (whaaaaaaa, whaaaaa, sniff, sniff). Life is good, life is good, I am happy, I am happy (repeated over and over and over in a whispered voice with eyes closed, clutching hands to chest).

I'll take non-mormon happiness any day.

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Posted by: blind mule ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:41PM

I don't know if you are still in or out of military. My wife joined the Military readiness group in Ogden Utah and like you, my wife felt closer and had more genuine interactions then she did with her visiting teachers. Most people are introverted by nature (and I am no exception) Its been great just meeting people. Put it out there and make it a point to introduce yourself to people. You will find a lot of wonderful people in the world.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:45PM

Great post.

Just remember, atheism isn't defined as having no hope. I am one and I love life, am filled with awe, and probably am more excepting of others than when I was trying to believe and remain in the church.

Atheism could be a logical conclusion, just as you discovered your other conclusions.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:49PM

There is ample statistical evidence that living without mormonism is not only possible, but that those who make the move based on a foundation of reproducible and testible evidence, live happier lives. The last was added to remove from consideration those who grow up mormon but for whatever reason become addicted to a substance or a behavior that stops their rational minds from developing, i.e., drugs, alcohol, video games, and 'nickel now v. a dollar later' behavior.

Although I am a mormon-atheist, I have no problem accepting and even congratulating those who move from mormonism to a more gentle 'gospel', and the reduced demands that the vast majority of '...isms' require. The group 'hug', as it were, is a valid source of emotional nourishment.

A poster recently used the phrase, "The Grand Scheme of Things" and I was prompted (by the spirit, no doubt) to offer an alternative, "The Tiny Scheme of My Things" (or something like that....) and I consider it to be a statement of fact. There is no grand scheme of things that we need be concerned with. We are much better off trying to identify the Tiny Scheme of Our Things that will bring us "happiness", which comes in ever so many sizes, shapes and colors.

One thing I feel confident in declaring is that kids grow up learning from the people closest to them, which is usually the parents. They don't learn church doctrines from you or the church, they learn how to behave, how to process data and how to react to both prosperity and adversity. If kids aren't given the proper examples when young, serious trouble can arise. We've all seen the sons and daughters of even the most righteous mormons go off the track, and we all pretty much agree it was because the parents made the church, and their progress in it, a more important factor in their lives than the kids...

You sound like an amazing father and I'm sure that you have no doubts about the course you're on. You're probably just looking for a good way to show your wife that letting go of the dumb-ass anchor rope to mormonism is going to be a positive thing in her life and in the lives of your children. Putting family and home ahead of mormonism is the single best thing parents can do for their kids, in my opinion.

Some wives don't find a way to do that and bad 'family' things happen. But it sure looks like you're on the right track...even though you're in Utah, where dumping the church brings reprisals from mormon 'friends' and neighbors. But it's getting easier and easier to find new friends (real ones!) and things to do!

I hope it works out for you.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 04:50PM

I get that TBMs are scared to death they won't have any "meaning" if they leave. That happens not only to mormons, by the way, but to lots of people who realize they don't really believe in claimed god-things. But with the all-encompassing mormon cult lifestyle, the fear can be especially acute among mormons.

There are lots of good approaches to that problem. Johnny gave a good example. Mine is different, and only takes a few words: life has whatever meaning you decide to give it. It really is that simple.

What I don't get is what that has to do with "breaking the cycle" of "Catholic to Mormon to atheist." Or that there is such a "cycle." I mean, I wasn't Catholic...:)

You can leave mormonism and still believe in a god if you want. You can leave mormonism and NOT believe in a god (atheist). You can leave mormonism and not CARE whether there's a god or not. The point is...it's up to you (and your wife). Figure out what works for you, and run with it. Just break out of the "mormon leaders tell me to x" cycle, and you're already way ahead.

Oh, and just so you know...this atheist has 3 kids. One is graduating soon from 4-year college, and will be starting law school (he's got 6 acceptances to choose from). One is a jr. in high school, all-state in Lacrosse, straight-A student since kindergarten, and is aiming to go to Stanford (she'll probably make it). The other is a wonderful almost 3 year-old who is the light of my life. None of them are "lost," or have any kind of "despair and heartache," and don't lack hope or happiness. And none of them believe in any claimed god-things. And they all have their own figured-out and set goals, dreams, ambitions, and plans -- and parents/siblings who love them unconditionally. Those are the things that make for happy lives, not made-up bullshit about imaginary celestial kingdoms and secret handshakes.

Good luck.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 05:41PM

Brain Steamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------



> Even though she emotionally vomits thinking of polygamy
> and many things they say about ‘being given to a
> righteous man in the hereafter’, she has to stay
> connected in the neighborhood to feel safe.

Hi there,

Sounds like your family lives in an unsafe Utah location? Is there any way you can relocate to a safe city/town? Just like you rely on your analytical brain to 'feel safe', sounds like if your wife could live in a safe location, she could have a much better life.

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 05:56PM

Brain Steamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Now down to the meat:
> My “problem” is that during discussions, my
> wife is concerned that without the church, our
> kids will end up in despair and heartache, not
> having any hope or happiness. I have also seen it
> in her, too, because it’s been engrained in her
> that ‘it’s either all true or none of it’s
> true’. There will be pain and despair that
> comes with looking at this logically and growing
> to trust in yourself. But I don’t want my
> family to get stuck in a mindset that we have to
> accept atheism to break free of the church.

I encourage you to use the 'analytic mind' upon which you rely to 'feel safe'. In this paragraph, there are a multitude of assumptions and logical fallacies.

One problem I often see in LDS is 1. the indoctrination to be afraid of others' emotions and 2. the cowardice that comes with believing one is responsible for others' feelings. It's deeply, deeply ingrained in the church and for true healing, it is important to break free from this lie.

How we bond/attach to others often must be recreated from the ground up when we leave the church. We are so accustomed to the belief that we 'make' people feel happy or unhappy, it is foreign to us to view others, even one's spouse, as beyond our control. Often in the church, there is much blame and guilt trip doled out to willing participants. Spouses, mothers, fathers sobbing over their 'lost sheep' spouse/child/what have you. As if the spouse/child is actively trying to oppress their loved one.

The church approach teaches us that it is imperative to avoid upset at all costs. Sure, Jesus and Joseph could raise cain and be arrested and throw s&*# around, threaten others. But for us? No. We must be polite, care taking, never, ever cause upset or sadness or stress to anyone.

One of the healthiest things you can do for your wife and kids, for their future is to begin the process of un-brainwashing your mind about this. I know it can feel like you are dropping the ball as a dad. But there are wonderful things on the other side of this situation that you cannot see or know at this time. You're assuming the worst and I think those assumptions warrant your re-examination. You are telling yourself a story and it hasn't even played out yet. That has everything to do with your next decisions because if you believe the story you made up in your head ('despair', 'pain', 'no hope') you will likely miss the RIGHT ACTION that is in your power to create.

Plus, imo, true, real love says, 'I never want to get in the way of your journey!' When we view others as having a sacred path that ultimately, has zero to do with us, we can celebrate their very existence and journey. Therefore, we don't fear their despair, if it happens, nor blame ourselves. I think you can see how you can be a much better husband and more present with potential upsets in your wife from a viewpoint that she is traveling the path that is right for her. If she never met you, if she never married you, she still is here on this earth for purpose(s) and you never want to insert yourself in that sacred space, imo. Trust. Trust. It's foreign, it's uncomfortable, but trust. What got you to this place will carry you through to the next place.

I wish you and family the best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2018 05:56PM by carameldreams.

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Posted by: Gatorman not logged in ( )
Date: May 22, 2018 06:19PM

Raised three honored and stable children- all with intact marriages, jobs and well adjusted kids of their own without a shred of tscc...spirituality can come in large or small gulps, positive and some negative life experiences and consistent parenting with love and attention...to me “forcing” church activity by parents whose own belief or lack thereof will become obvious to their kids- is not a wise strategy. If the church isn’t true tell them. If you still desire hope go elsewhere..

Gatorman

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Posted by: Brain Steamer ( )
Date: May 23, 2018 07:58PM

“We are much better off trying to identify the Tiny Scheme of Our Things that will bring us "happiness", which comes in ever so many sizes, shapes and colors.”

ElderOlddog-Well said. Thanks for all the replies and encouragement.

I’m certain I came off wrong in that atheism is bad. Truth in advertising, the atheists I have known weren’t good examples. And I intend to check my own logical fallacies. If atheism is where I eventually land, I will be okay;) I’m encouraged to hear from some atheists about their life philosophies. Everyone posted something truly amazing. Truly.

I’m sure I’ll be back to this site on occasion. Thanks again.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 24, 2018 12:30AM

When you are free of theism then you will be an Atheist.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 24, 2018 02:22AM

>>...my wife is concerned that without the church, our kids will end up in despair and heartache, not having any hope or happiness.

My niece and nephew were raised largely without religion. They are both in their early to mid-30s, are doing well, and are happy. Kids are great imitators. If you model being a positive, hopeful person, the chances are good that they will pick it up from you. As for your wife, she has been heavily indoctrinated by the Mormon church for a very long time, and yes, withdrawing from that can be painful.

If you wish, you can still believe in whatever you want to believe in (God, Jesus, heaven, etc.) without benefit of a church. Or you can try out some low-demand religions or denominations such as the ELCA Lutherans, the UMC Methodists, the Unitarians, etc. Mormons are used to being subject to the demands of their religion, but in reality religion and spirituality are for our benefit and not the other way around. Do what works for your best interest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2018 02:23AM by summer.

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