I like what the Dawg has written (but, then, I like the Dawg!). I suppose there are those who do not deserve our respect, I just don’t encounter those types in my daily life. There’s also a BIG difference between healthy disdain and disrespect versus ACTIVE disrespect. If I say to myself, what a fuckwad; that’s different between actively trying to destroys someone’s career or reputation (something the Morg would be happy to do to me). Respectfully, The Boner.
Start every day with a good thought. That will change the world.
That’s an interesting thought about giving respect to people who don’t deserve it. Maybe we should respect church leaders. After all, they’re more trapped than we ever were. It’s like they’re inside a glass Christmas ornament looking at their own reflection. Their weirded out world looks perfectly normal to them.
Maybe God (if you believe that sort of thing) gave us enemies so we could love them.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 12:08PM by babyloncansuckit.
I want to believe that the majority of us here do exactly that; I see 'good' bubbling over here among the majority of RfM'ers.
But how does one become a force or focus or generator to/for those who are not currently starting their days with a good thought? And who defines what a good thought is?
There is a supposed standard prayer that the 'faithful' sellers in Mexico City's weekly 'Thieves' Market' utter before the 'doors' open: "Please, ghawd, put before me really dumb customers so that I can take advantage of them." Is that a 'good' thought?
If someone going to this market petitions ghawd to find him a seller who can be taken advantage of, is that a good thought?
I enjoy honesty, except for those times it is crucial that I lie, and I define 'crucial'. Lying is an important human trait.
It could be that we are too diverse, with reference to the continuum that humanity has grown to occupy so that there are actually people who genuinely cannot get along with each other. I think many of us have had spouses who fit this bill, not to mention co-workers, etc., etc.
Can you imagine me walking up the walkway to Amyjo's front door, clutching a bouquet of flowers, for a first date? No, seriously, can you? We know Cheech Marin would play me in the movie... The really nice, kind, positive people here think it would be a comedy; I call these RfM'ers the Care Bears. Good for all of you Care Bears!
elderolddog Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You are such a hunk of joyous love, Boner! You > put the bomb in bombardier!!!
he's right Boner... you really are a hunk of joyous love..
I like the "treat everybody like you would like to be treated." But, there are some people who just won't let you be nice to them. In that case I avoid them like the plague. Yep, there are some you cannot help. Most people are good, IMO! :^)
Do not vote to enable religious power. Do not vote for people who have made it clear they do not respect separation of religion and state. You can tell by their actions and views they share with their base. If they use "Bible" in their politics, that is code for no separation or separation only for other religions.
I'd like to say respect is the #1 answer. It is needed, but giving respect gives power. I've learned that the ones who show respect get trampled on by those who take advantage. I'm torn between wanting to show respect and cooperation and using Machiavellian tactics. In today's world, I'm disappointed that even religion is using the respect they were given to pull Machiavellian moves.
I think, unfortunately, humans have an evolutionary history of good guys sometimes winning with kindness and bad guys sometimes winning by force. At what point do people stop enabling people who take advantage of being given respect?
This is a much bigger scope than the original question in the original post, but even with Mormons, respect only enables them.
I suspect that the fall of other gods and religions came when people stopped treating them with respect. Remove the sacred cloak they use to demand respect and expose them under the light of reason.
That said, I also see that religion does sometimes have a role and some people really have nothing else going for them. What few benefits religion provides could be found outside religion if we could stop believing the claims of religion that they are the arbitrators of charity and morals to be respected. I'm not hopeful this can change using respect. It empowers the divisive nature of religion.
I could almost respect religion (to include Mormonism) if they would drop all unfounded claims and brain-numbing ridiculous regressive dogma and stick to being organizations of actual charity.
So, I think voting and vocal exposure where appropriate seems more likely to affect a change. Maybe the vocal exposure can be respectful but religions in general seem just as hostile to polite criticism as respectful criticism.
Think of it this way. The saying goes you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I believe that is true, but at some point when the flies take over you have to use more than vinegar.
Stupid humans. I don't respect our species all that much anymore. Humans keep acting like humans and it's not going to change.
Obviously, if someone CANNOT respect your point of view then its a DEADEND. I am basically coming from the Mormon/AntiMormon or Mormon/NonMormon views.
I know a bunch of Mormons who would really love to engage their faith points and their life experiences.
Its just that too often the LDS Kingdom does not allow any conversation or dialogue. That is NOT respect.
Here is how I do it. I have no interest in changing anything or anyone. Not my job. So. I don't discuss my lack of religion and they don't discuss their religion. It's a non-issue in my relationships with friends and relatives. I have no idea what most of them believe and I don't care. It falls under my motto: "Make Nice."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2018 03:55PM by SusieQ#1.
I like this topic and agree with much of what has been said here.
The Human League wrote "My suggestion is respect. Our entire World will NOT move forward without it."
My response - I agree, humans tend to be emotionally driven and respond in kind. The old saying “people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care” comes to mind and rings true.
EOD wrote "Is there any room for 'what a moron!!’ et al. type responses, which the internet makes so easy?"
My response – No, and if it were up to me to decide, those who repeatedly used this kind of language would be banned. Ad hominem attacks cause bad feelings and a break down in communication. To those questioning lurkers who visit our discussions, disrespectful language reflects badly on us in the exmormon community and may deter them from further participation here.
Aquarius wrote "Treat everybody like you would like to be treated."
My response – I like this bit of secular wisdom. This thoughtful treatment should be extended to include those we don’t agree with.
Dagny wrote "I'd like to say respect is the #1 answer. It is needed, but giving respect gives power. I've learned that the ones who show respect get trampled on by those who take advantage. I'm torn between wanting to show respect and cooperation and using Machiavellian tactics. In today's world, I'm disappointed that even religion is using the respect they were given to pull Machiavellian moves."
My response – There is so much of what dagny wrote that I liked but to limit my response… I think we can be both kind and still wise and firm and not fall victim to Machiavellian tactics.We can claim the moral high ground by exposing the wrongs and faulty reasoning of religious fanatics and others while at the same time showing respect and restraint.
I, unlike some here, would like a free and open dialogue (respectful of course) with those who don’t share my point of view. I don’t think it is good to remain isolated and protected in our group think bubbles and not be exposed to others opinions and views. I would allow believing Mormons to present their views on this board. I am convinced we exmos can prevail because we have the truth on our side and we may win more people to our truth if we allowed free expression.
Finally, there are a lot of things that could be done to change things and make the world better if that were our focus. I like the idea of people coming together in a secular copacity yet not excluding people of faith to find ways to make the world a better place. It would require identifying and incorporating principles rather than “belief” as a road map to progress. I call them guiding principles.
" I would allow believing Mormons to present their views on this board."
There are many other places to debate mormons. There are some here where this is their only "safe" place. As Eric has said for decades, please allow us our little corner of cyberspace. The VAST majority of us know everything they are going to say and there is no "outside our bubble" conversation to be had. Been there. Done that. Have T-shirts. As to prevailing and winning, it just doesn't work that way. You can't "win" anything when it is a onesided discussion. Facts will not influence warm fuzzy feelings. When they are ready, they know where to find us.
PS to Kathleen, that is my personal motto. Be EXCELLENT to each other and party on (enjoy your life) Dudes!
Enjoy your bubbles. I'd rather not have a bubble around me and dislike this human trait of hiding in them. I like the discussions and will continue to participate here regardless. This isn't my website so I can't change the policy. I would however rather be exposed to the views of those who don't agree with me. How else will I know if my evidence and reason will stand up against opposing views? Others, it seems, would rather be protected from evidence and information that doesn't support their current opinions. This is a trait that I found troubling within the Mormon church. I have actually won debates with those who will debate. The problem is most won't debate. They refuse to have a dialogue. On the internet they either call names or delete. Enjoy the bubble.
I guess its easy to sit back and explain in detail over and over and over and over...why you dont like the Mormons. The Religion. How they are. Blah blah.
I am only saying that if we can reach a few of those folks then its an accomplishment. I for one dont enjoy the VERY MEAN spirited postings about _______________.
I am not posting to "Sing to the choir". I am trying to find common ground to save a few folks that are desperate to know the truth and seek out healing.
I know what its like to feel lost. I know what its like to feel isolated. I know what its like to be desperate. The Mormon religion/Business/manipulation model is like a Boa Constrictor. Its choking the life out of people and they cant even breathe much less...escape its grip.
I've been involved (always with the other person asking) in talking through getting out of mormonism with 6 people. Three were relatives. Three were not.
Not a single one of them got out because I treated mormonism with "respect." Now, of course I don't know for certain because I can't go back in time and try things another way, but I think it's a high probability that if I *had* treated mormonism (or mormon leaders) with "respect" in the discussions I have had, few if any of these people would have left the church.
In fact, several of them specifically said how "enlightening" (eye-opening, refreshing, etc.) it was to talk with someone who wasn't afraid to rip mormonism a new one. And to honestly and openly and fully criticize the lies, the leaders, and the cult tactics of the church.
So, given my personal experiences, I'll pass on the "respect." In day-to-day life, when meeting new people, I treat them "respectfully" by default. Once I get to know someone, I decide how to treat them (and/or whether or not to associate with them) based on how they act and what they say. If they don't merit "respect," they don't get it.
I've already have many years of experience with mormonism. Based on its history, its leaders, and the actions of its its people during that time, it doesn't merit any "respect." And my experience shows that doing so is counter-productive. So I won't be giving it any. Same for its doctrines, and for a belief in those doctrines by people.
I wish it could be that simple. Most of the time showing respect is correct. It is not correct in all cases. I recently read a reprint of a 1930's era US printed newspaper editorial that Jews should show respect towards Nazi's. That was obviously not a good plan.
Again...I aint trying to save the World. Just the ones who want to engage conversation and attempt to discover the Topics of concern/dispute. I have ZERO respect some freaking Mormons who should be dealt with in another manner.
I just hope that the OPEN minded ones especially the younger generation will continue to ask themselves questions and open up dialogue. Its already happening.
TheHumanLeague Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I just hope that the OPEN minded ones especially > the younger generation will continue to ask > themselves > questions and open up dialogue. Its already > happening.
In a limited fashion I would agree. Homosexuality is becoming something younger Mormons aren't beating people up for anymore. Other than that I don't see much progressiveness.