OK, I have a body. In fact I am my body--its structure and
behavior.

I have a nose to help me smell things. This allows me to avoid
eating putrid things that would harm me. It also allows me to
breathe.

I have legs and feet which allow me to move about and find food,
and allow me to run away from danger.

I have arms and hands which allow me to manipulate the things
around me, create tools and shelter, put food in my mouth and to
climb.

I have eyes which allow me to see. I can thus see where food
may be and see dangers that I need to avoid before it's too
late.

I have ears that allow me to hear sounds in the world around me.
This allows me to hear clues to the presence of danger so I can
assess it and evade it.

I have lungs which allow oxygen from the air to reach my cells
and carbon dioxide from my cells to be expelled from my body.
These are necessary for me to live.

I have a digestive system which allows me to take in nourishment
which keeps me from dying. It includes a means of eliminating
waste products.

I have a liver and kidneys which filter out impurities and keep
me from dying.

I have teeth that allow me to chew food which keeps me alive.

I have an immune system that fights off the myriad of micro-
organisms that might kill me.

I have a skeleton which provides structure to keep all these
things in place, and muscles which move the skeleton (and
therefore me) around.

I have skin which provides a protective barrier for all my inner
systems.

ALL of these things evolved to allow me to survive temporarily
on earth. They are adaptions to my environment. They'd be
little help if I were suddenly transported to Jupiter.

ALL of these things make sense ONLY as a way for me to survive
and interact with my physical environment.

NONE of these things would make any sense for an omnipotent,
omniscient, eternal being.

If injury and death are not a problem, then none of these
systems are needed.

Mormonism teaches that God has a human body. Why? We're taught
that God has flesh and bone but no blood. Then he has no need
for lungs which are an interface between the atmosphere and the
blood-stream. He has no need of a liver which filters dangerous
things out of the blood.

If God is immortal he needs NONE of these things which allow
mortal beings to survive on the earth's surface.

The Mormon idea of God having a body is completely absurd.

Totally.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mormon idea of God having a body is completely
> absurd.

Yes, it is.
But then, so are the millions of other ideas of "God." :)

The idea of an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being outside of
time and space doesn't contain the obvious contradictions that
the Mormon God contains.

Mormonism is a whole new special kind of absurd.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2018 10:20AM by baura.

The crazy, it hurts.

Belief systems should be internally self consistent, whatever they are. Mormonism isn’t, but it’s set up so you don’t notice or don’t care. My, what a tangled web we weave.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient
> being outside of
> time and space doesn't contain the obvious
> contradictions that
> the Mormon God contains.

Since there's no evidence of any kind that *anything* is "outside of time and space," nor of *anything* being "omnipotent, omniscient," I disagree. I find that idea profoundly contradictory to observed reality.

But I guess "absurd" is both subjective and relative :)

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there's no evidence of any kind that
> *anything* is "outside of time and space," nor of
> *anything* being "omnipotent, omniscient," I
> disagree. I find that idea profoundly
> contradictory to observed reality.

Absurd is a loaded word. I agree it might not apply in my opinion to God having a body.

ab·surd
əbˈsərd,əbˈzərd/
adjective
adjective: absurd; comparative adjective: absurder; superlative adjective: absurdest
wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
synonyms:
preposterous, ridiculous, ludicrous, farcical, laughable, risible, idiotic, stupid, foolish, silly, inane, imbecilic, insane, harebrained, cockamamie;
unreasonable, irrational, illogical, nonsensical, incongruous, pointless, senseless;
informal, crazy, daft
antonyms:
reasonable, sensible, arousing amusement or derision; ridiculous.

But in my opinion one could put human consciousness as is generally understood (cohesive self) in the same light.

"contradictory to observed reality"

We observe a bunch of brain and body systems.

The human concept of God in the all powerful sense is merely putting the concept of god(s) into the driver seat of all that is instead of aspects of observed reality. It is like giving consciousness to reality itself. That seems contradictory to my observations of reality.

Whether it is absurd or not I don't know.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:

> Since there's no evidence of any kind that
> *anything* is "outside of time and space," nor of
> *anything* being "omnipotent, omniscient," I
> disagree. I find that idea profoundly
> contradictory to observed reality.

Of course, observed reality is inside space and time. The lack
of evidence is a good reason not to believe in something.
However the Mormon god is inconsistent. That's another level of
absurd.

“There is no evidence” is a loaded term. Evidence is culturally rejected until it’s not, and then it’s accepted whole cloth.

There is a theoretical basis for all kinds of things we have no evidence for. But with Mormon God there’s not even plausibility. We know it’s all made up.

Gee, if we're going to loosen the standard of "evidence," then the mormons DO have a basis...

The bible has Jacob physically wrestling with god, even pinning him, and saying him saw him "face to face." Sounds like a body...

Moses says the ten commandment tablets were written by the "finger of god." Fingers are on bodies, not spirits. Sounds like a body...

Jesus says in heaven he'll be at the "right hand" of god. Hands are on bodies, not spirits. Sounds like a body...

There are more. Point being: mormons didn't pluck the "god has a body" idea out of Joseph's addled brain.

Most Mormon ideas are completely absurd. That’s the problem with being stuck in the 19th century.

Exactly. Without our modern understanding of evolution and
physiology (which Joseph Smith didn't have), the idea of God
having a body isn't quite as absurd. Notice that TSCC no longer
emphasizes God having a body like they did when I was a kid and
access to information was limited.

It says in Genesis 1 we are created in the image of gods. That isn't found in the BoM, it's in the bible. To be in the image would mean what exactly if not the image in a physical sense?

Imagination? God imagines us, we imagine God. It all makes sense after a couple of bong hits.

It makes more sense to me without the bong hits.

Different strokes for different folks.

God endowed us with imagination. Necessity is the mother of invention. And so it has been since the beginning of time.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God endowed us with imagination.

And your evidence that "god" endowed us with imagination (or anything else) would be...?

Never mind. I already know the answer.

The proof is in the pudding.

"There are only two ways to live your life: as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle." Einstein

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, which is external to the pudding.

Not to mention that it's easy to argue Einstein's quote. There's nothing wrong with thinking life is ordinary, but can occasionally be highlighted with a miracle.

All ya gotta do is play golf long enough ...

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It says in Genesis 1 we are created in the image
> of gods. That isn't found in the BoM, it's in the
> bible. To be in the image would mean what exactly
> if not the image in a physical sense?


What if the Torah was a work of fiction?
Try to imagine a college graduate with a science degree who had never heard about Judaism being told that all the facts stated in the Torah are true. Would she even bother reading the second chapter of Genesis?

I have degrees in math and physics and I absolutely LOVE Genesis.
However I approach it as ancient literature, alongside the Iliad,
the Odyssey, the Enuma Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the story of
Sinuhe, etc. Many people have read the Tolkien books, "The
Hobbit" and his Ring trilogy. No one is bothered that they tell
of non-existant beings. My children were amazed that some TV
preacher was railing against Harry Potter books. "Gee," they
said, "their fictional; what's his problem?" They're well
educated and they've read all the Harry Potter books.

The problem comes when people approach an ancient text as some
sort of magic, inerrant truth that we today should follow
unquestioningly. That strikes me as kind of nutty.

> The problem comes when people approach an ancient
> text as some sort of magic, inerrant truth that we
> today should follow unquestioningly. That strikes
> me as kind of nutty.

Especially when there are sooooo many takes on just what each passage means. Everybody considers their explanation of inerrancy to be correct, and the other guys' explanations to be incorrect.

How many testimonies of the truth exist in just the Jesus religions?

Lots of gods have bodies. Some have a blue body. Some are part human-looking and part animal. They may have an elephant’s trunk. Some carry a huge hammer. Others a giant spear. Some are male and some are female.

If the Mormon’s want to have one called Elohim, with a human-looking body, they can. There are a lot more weird gods out there.

I visited India some years ago, and got a bit of a primer on Hindu gods. I was there for the week of Diwali (Festival of Lights, associated with Lakshmi). It happens around early November, and is more or less the Indian equivalent of Christmas. Anyway, it made it easy to ask religion questions.

I was told that the reason some of the gods images are blue is that that is the color of the body when it is attacked by snake venom, so the god is taking on the poisons of the world. Sounds rather like the Christian atonement.

Ganesha, with the elephant head, was a favorite god. He got the elephant head after getting his block knocked off, which made him empathetic to people having a bad day, and also the god of overcoming obstacles. My driver offered a little prayer to his dashboard Ganesha each day when he started his car. If you have ever been in traffic in India, you would totally understand the impulse.

The stories of how Ganesha got his head, from simple wikipedia:

There are two stories about how he was born.

A story says that one day, Goddess Parvati was taking a bath at home. She did not want anyone to disturb her. She created a boy with her powers, and told him to guard and not let anyone in. When Lord Shiva came home, he wanted to come inside but the boy would not let him. Lord Shiva asked his army to make him go away, but his army failed. Finally, Shiva just cut the boy’s head off. When Parvati had heard what had happened, she was angry. She pleaded with Shiva to save him. Lord Shiva sent his army to go find a head for Ganesha. His army came back with an elephant head.

The other story is this. Parvati was very proud of her son Ganesha. She asked Shani (god of the planet Saturn) to look at her son. Shani looked at the face of Ganesha. Shani’s look burnt Ganesha’s face—he had the evil eye—and Ganesha became headless. Then Brahma (the creator god of Hindus) advised Parvati to fix Ganesha with the first head of anything she could find. Parvati found a head of an elephant. This head she fixed on the body of Ganesha. Thus, Ganesha got an elephant’s head.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> A story says that one day, Goddess Parvati was
> taking a bath at home. She did not want anyone to
> disturb her. She created a boy with her powers,
> and told him to guard and not let anyone in. When
> Lord Shiva came home, he wanted to come inside but
> the boy would not let him. Lord Shiva asked his
> army to make him go away, but his army failed.
> Finally, Shiva just cut the boy’s head off. When
> Parvati had heard what had happened, she was
> angry. She pleaded with Shiva to save him. Lord
> Shiva sent his army to go find a head for Ganesha.
> His army came back with an elephant head.
>

This is interesting to me. I'm U-U, and we always celebrate Dwali because it is an important holiday in Hinduism, and our minister said that Ganesha was the son of Parvati and Shiva, and was indeed standing guard over his mother while she bathed. Daddy came home and tried to get in to where Mom was, and the kid said "Oh, no, you don't! She wishes to be left alone to bathe, and you are not going in there!" (or words to that effect) Then his dad sliced the mouthy (and Oedipal, we presume) kid's head clean off his shoulders. When Parvati came out all dewey and fresh and clean smelling and saw what her husband had done to their son, she threw the most monstrous hissy fit in history and demanded that Shiva FIX IT! NOW! And I mean it, Mister, or no more you-know-what with me! So Shiva ran out and managed to find a elephant head (left by poachers? Seems unlikely. I think he cut off the poor elephant's head himself but, who knows for sure?), hurried back and attached it to Ganesha's body. Mommy happy, Daddy relieved, and Ganesha suddenly a god himself! Easy to see why Ganesh (or Ganesha) is one of the favorites of the Hindu gods. His back story is so cool! My personal favorite is Kwan Yin (no doubt misspelled, as I don't spell foreign words or names well at all. She is the Buddhist goddess of compassion. I think, although I could be wrong about that--and she may also be Hindu. (I like her because she makes a beautiful pendant when crafted in pearl and sapphire and silver, etc. I get compliments every time I wear her. Plus I'm big on compassion as opposed to the oedipal cutting off of kid's heads.) I'm not really up on all the different gods and goddesses of the universe. After all, look how many arguments there are in this country alone about the god of the three Abrahamic religions. Eeek! :D

Genesis got it backward.

Man made god in his image. Joe Smith just took it to its logical extreme.

Well, if you take the Bible to be the "word of God," you should perhaps consider that numerous passages in the Bible imply that God does indeed have a body:

Gen 1:26-27 man is in God's IMAGE; see also Gen 5:1-3, 9:6-9
Gen 32:30 "I have seen God face to FACE..."
Ex 24:10-11 "And they [Moses et al.] saw the God of Israel...his FEET..his HAND... also they [the nobles] saw God..."
Ex 33:11 "...the Lord spake unto Moses FACE TO FACE..."
Ex 33:23 "..thou shalt see my BACK PARTS, but my FACE shalt not see..."
Acts 7:56 "...on the right HAND of God.."

The Bible has the excuse that it's being metaphorical.

Mormonism doesn't have that excuse.

What if God is as real as you or me? And omnipotent and eternal?

That would make him more real, not less so.

The bible can be interpreted metaphorically and there are those who take it literally.

But ... bottom line, if we are the created as a race, a planet, and sharing a natural proclivity to invent, create and become more than we started out as in having a god given intellect ... is it enough to give thanks where it's due? To our Creator of the heavens and earth?

I heard someone once say if we exist for no other reason than to glorify God who is our home, then that is enough validation for our being.

A past rabbi gave a sermon on the intelligent design of the human ear. How finely engineered it is - which to him is proof we have an intelligent Creator who would go to such details to make our bodies able to function. That is his proof there is a God by the intelligent and intricate design of the human ear alone. It was a brilliant sermon by a brilliant rabbi. It was the kind of sermon you never forget.

... Plus a banana is a perfect fit for the human hand!

How could I have been so blind! The human ear and the banana prove the existence of ghawd!

Did the rabbi happen to mention what he and ghawd do about all the ear hair, and why old men get so much of it?

So much for the argument about intelligent Rabbis.

Brilliant to Amyjo means scientifically illiterate to me apparently.

There are so many books to explain the "engineered" organs in the scheme of evolution. He chooses to ignore well studied science and misrepresent it as god-supporting pap to people who don't know any better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 11:11AM by dagny.

elderolddog Wrote:

> How could I have been so blind! The human ear and
> the banana prove the existence of ghawd!

You'll have to speak louder, I have a divine banana in my ear.

Why does god need a starship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HjR5xW7FU



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 08:20AM by anybody.

If you go by the typical Christian standard that God can do whatever he wants (because he's omnipotent) for whatever reasons he wants (because you don't go questioning God) then he could have a physical body if he wanted one, so there, neener neener neener.

When you're dealing with magical thinking, there's always whatever magic is necessary to counter logic, reason and reality.

The Christian concept is called the Incarnation. God entered a body (Jesus) as a sort of portal into his creation. Like Elon Musk driving a Tesla.

Emmanuel="God with us". Its really bog-standard Christian theology. (I'm not saying its true).

The monkey wrench thrown in by Joe Smith was the claim that the Father and Son both have separate but equal bodies. IOW, when Jesus was hanging on the cross, the Father was looking on from afar in his own, uncrucified, body. HF could have come to earth and done it all himself but chickened out.

They wanted to shake hands with him. Sorry I had to say it.

God? Absurd!