“He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”
—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189

“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley


“Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church…”

It's becoming abundantly clear that thousands of members are coming to the conclusion that it's very easy to discredit the LDS claims. The Book of Mormon is fiction about imaginary people, places and things.

Metaphysical, visionary claims held by faith can, in this case, be easily debunked.

Ah yes, Susie:

the LDS over-simplify issues that they want to, but just as readily say 'it's complicated' out of the other side of their mouth, at nearly the same moment...


What is also true, is that parents of younger children ('formative years') see all kinds of things that "other children" (ha ha) get addicted to or involved with, Deeply wish to avoid-prevent:

drugs.

unmarried bad relationships, pregnancies.

crime


just as simple as 'going with the wrong crowd'.

What I see in my daughter (3 girls at home) is the above, the 'sheltering instinct'; that is More Real than the LDS, daughter knows it.

Just before I left on my mission to Japan in the mid 70's, some well-intentioned, but forgotten person gave me a book that they said would help me convert people - "The Book of Mormon: Key to Conversion". So I read it and thought that it was a realistic claim - if the BoM is true, then so is JS, and then so is the church. It helped me while on my mission because even though I didn't have a testimony, at the time, I had no reason to question the veracity of the book.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Key-Conversion/dp/B000O8FLMA

Years later in the late 90's, I found the book again while emptying some boxes after moving. I was in testimony crisis mode again, so I read it again and decided to research what I could about the BoM. Times had changed and there was a lot more information available about Native American cultures, DNA, church history. After all the studying that I did, I came to the conclusion that there was only a very remote chance that the BoM was historical. It had become my key to deconversion.

I "stand all amazed" at what the internet has done for us! So many of us are rescued from the fraud. The arch has fallen, due to the now easy access to information, and quick easy verification of their sources.

Now I am amazed at those who remain. I guess pride in ancestry won't allow them to see the truth? In many ways, we converts are more fortunate in our ability to make a break for it.

I always considered that quote from Hinckley as a "dog whistle" admission that he knew it was a fraud, and was trying to scare the faithful away from even considering the thought. As in "nope, can't be a fraud, even if it looks like it. I've considered that, and am here to tell you it is not a fraud. No fraud here. No sir-ee"

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always considered that quote from Hinckley as a
> "dog whistle" admission that he knew it was a
> fraud, and was trying to scare the faithful away
> from even considering the thought. As in "nope,
> can't be a fraud, even if it looks like it. I've
> considered that, and am here to tell you it is not
> a fraud. No fraud here. No sir-ee"


Eventually, I came to see it the same way. We know it's a fraud, impossible to prove, but we can sell it by faith. It's the ultimate con, in my view. We know it's not true, but faith is more powerful than fact. Metaphysical, visionary claims are always believed by faith. It's almost magical! And look at all the members, who stand and claim it's true. What is the old saying: "10 thousand Frenchmen can't be wrong."

It is a fraud, therefore it is nothing.

Founded by false prophets. Built on lies and half-truths.

Even the LDS prophets admit it, without going so far as to say they know it's a hoodwink.

and WHO exactly was it that painted LDS Inc and its THE (MORmON) church into that corner ??????????

And their "no middle ground" definition helps members realize that they are no longer welcomed in the church when their doubts arise. The all or nothing is also the reason recent converts don't stick around.

There was no collusion with fraudsters.

That was then. Now it’s “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”.

It's a fraud/business designed to line the pockets of it's CEO's.

It's a very cleaver fraud neatly disguised as "the truth" and presented as something that you mustn't pass up or you will not only miss out on your eternal reward but be damned for refusing to accept.

These statements are about as close as the leaders will ever come to admitting that there is a remote possibility that they may be wrong.

As I was studying my way out of the church I remember hearing a Stake President at stake conference say " either the church is true or it is a very expensive social club." I remember thinking to myself "now there is something on which I agree with him."

But if you go to your Bishop and say you're thinking of leaving
because you're convinced that the BOM (or BOA, or FV etc.) is
fictional, then suddenly they start looking for some kind of
"middle ground" to talk you into staying. All of a sudden it's
"a good way to raise children," or "where will you go? What will
you do?" or "You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater,"

They like to make these big pronouncements, but they are
hypocrites.

If there truly was a "middle ground" I might still be active in the church. I loved the people, the activities, the fellowship and much else but came to realize that there were just too many things that were not true.

What I want will never happen. In a bishop interview I would say that I don't believe any of it but I want to stay involved. And the bishop would say "That's okay, brother, in our church you can believe what you want. Joseph Smith said it was okay. Here is your temple recommend".

Both.



It is a True Fraud.