given that Mormons (to me at least) are Extremely Short-sighted (?) especially regarding application of principles / concepts of Christ-Like living...


If one believes in Repentance & Forgiving, what is the goal of invoking those?


Is(n't) it healing?

recall that repentance includes making a mistake corrected, including returning items taken without permission (4X in both Bible & LDS)

thoughts?

I can't respond in the way you may have expected...

Your query brought to my mind the notion that Repentance and Forgiveness are not what one thinks of when one considers what might be the only rule of Nature, 'survival of the fittest'.

I've learned in Judaism the one thing we're to never be forgiving of is pure evil.

People say they forgive others to heal themselves. I can't forgive someone who has taken something away from me that cannot be restored. TSCC has robbed me of some of my family. It doesn't get a pass for that.

When it's a cult you've grown up in, it's worse by degrees IMO. I'm thankful I was provided an upbringing where I learned right from wrong, and to discern truth from falsehood, or at least to attempt to in an honest effort to define what it is I believe in and what I don't.

The cult that instilled such basic virtues in me is to thank for leading me out of it. In that sense it's doomed to self-destruct, eventually. It exonerates family values, while undermining them at the same time. Since families are the nucleus of society, society cannot survive without strengthening families. However they are defined in the 21st century.

I have a difficult time with forgiving; especially if someone has tried to do harm to my family. I don't feel as much anger as I did when I first found out the hidden truths about TSCC, but there are some people that hurt my family so much, that I will never ever let my guard down around them again. I've heard that when you keep feeling anger and resentment, it can actually have a physical impact on your body. My husband has a saying: "Don't burn your liver over it; it's not worth it." We're still hoping for the day when our oldest daughter and her husband will wake up and leave the cult.

LOL! "Pure Gospel" sounds like "Fake News" to me.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> LOL! "Pure Gospel" sounds like "Fake News" to me.

I agree. What's "pure" varies by individual/organization. There's no objective standard.

I think the "object" of repentance and forgiveness in their various forms has always been social order in the group. Nothing else. And in that sense, the mormon version is right in line with other variations -- although clearly theirs is more hierarchical and controlled than many. But whether it's the formal, trial-like mormon version or a church-promoted, one-on-one (between the wronger and the wronged) version, the "object" is to keep social order, to identify wrongdoers, to give "second chances" to those deemed worthy of them, and to cast out of the group those not deemed worthy of "second chances."

Would Second Hand Rose be worthy of a second Mormon chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zl1W1KGTM

This world is said by some to be ghawd's handiwork. If that were the case, doesn't that make ghawd the author of pure evil, in the sine qua non construct?

It says in the bible that god created evil as he created good.

So yes, he created both according to scripture. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Still doesn't mean we have to forgive evil. If it's meant to test the limits of mankind, that's up to God to forgive.

The unpenitant need no forgiveness. Adolf Hitler is one of the best examples of pure evil in modern times. Or Charles Manson. Both were sociopaths. Neither deserved as good as they got.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:"

Shudders. God sounds like the best example of pure evil.

"What hath ghawd allowed?"

Not really. The vastness of creation and the goodness of humanity outweigh the negatives IMHO.

There are polarizing opposites to forces within the universe. As there are paradoxically within the hearts of humankind. As an Indian sage counseled his grandson, the one that wins (good v. evil,) is the one you feed.

If there wasn't evil in the world, would we appreciate what good or beauty there is to be found?

If life is meant to be a school, then wisdom is what we're here for. If it's a crap shot, then it comes down to the survival of the fittest, or the roll of the dice. I prefer Nathaniel Hawthorne's philosophy on life and eternity, "Our Creator would never have made such lovely days and have given us the deep hearts to enjoy them unless we were meant to be immortal."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 03:15PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
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> If there wasn't evil in the world, would we
> appreciate what good or beauty there is to be
> found?

I think the patriarch of both Lamanites and Nephites said this too.

There probably are humans in the world who haven't been exposed to many things other humans would call 'evil.' Are they living less fulfilling lives?

"fulfilled life"

Where does one go to be judged?

Is there somewhere I can take my life for it to be examined by an expert who will then tell me its worth? How embarrassing if the expert tells me, "well, what with being a mormon during your formative years and then taking up golf, you are pretty much destined for the dustbin of history. Next!"

"Is there somewhere I can take my life for it to be examined by an expert who will then tell me its worth?"

Might be about 10 million, if you're lucky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life

Interesting how valuation depends on what country one is in.

"United States
The following estimates have been applied to the value of life. The estimates are either for one year of additional life or for the statistical value of a single life.

$50,000 per year of quality life (the "dialysis standard",[12] which had been a de facto international standard most private and government-run health insurance plans worldwide use to determine whether to cover a new medical procedure)[13]
$129,000 per year of quality life (an update to the "dialysis standard")[14][13]
$9.1 million (Environmental Protection Agency, 2010)[15]
$7.9 million (Food and Drug Administration, 2010)[15]
$9.4 million (Department of Transportation, 2015)[16]
$9.6 million (Department of Transportation, Aug. 2016)[17]
The income elasticity of the value of statistical life has been estimated at 0.5 to 0.6.[6] Developing markets have smaller statistical value of life.[6] The statistical value of life also decreases with age.[6]

Historically, children were not valued very much but modern cultural norms attach a much higher value.[18]"

elderolddog Wrote:
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> How embarrassing if the expert tells me,
> "well, what with being a mormon during your
> formative years and then taking up golf, you are
> pretty much destined for the dustbin of history.
> Next!"

Would they be wrong?

Probably not, but a nicer presentation could have been made. Winking at the camera was not a nice thing to do, especially after the smirking...

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Probably not, but a nicer presentation could have
> been made.

90 percent of life is presenting...

Me thinks it is also found in proverbs and psalms before it was uttered in the BoM.

I think the concept of repentance and forgiving is meant for all of us because when we go the wrong way (which we all do at times) we can recognize that and repent and go the right way or at least try. As to forgiving basically same thing, we all need forgiveness at times so it is a circle. So if I forgive others maybe I can be forgiven as well. Now I do understand that some damage is severe and it is hard to forgive like the evil that is talked about such as Hitler and other extreme cases, I don't think we need to forgive that sort of thing, I think ultimately they get what they deserve in the end, of course there are victims of evil and that is sad, but what can we do, we don't live in a perfect world. If we did no one would die ever, there would be no fighting, everyone would have every need met.

Nottelling Wrote:
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> I think the concept of repentance and forgiving is
> meant for all of us because when we go the wrong
> way (which we all do at times) we can recognize
> that and repent and go the right way or at least
> try.

That's entirely reasonable.
But...who decides what the "right" and "wrong" ways are?
What if what you decide is the right way is considered the wrong way by your group?

With repentance maybe comes redemption, depending on what was done, to whom, and whether restoration is possible.

That's a whole different concept than forgiveness.

Repentance is a particularly Christian ideal. While other religions have conecpts of sin and such, Chisrtianity really hones in on this concept. That you are a wretch only God can save and that saving is absolutely necessary.

I think this is a legalism that Christianity adopted from what Judaism was struggling with at the time of Christ. Judaism kind of relaxed while Christians went in wholly on the idea.

The Bible is nebuluous and contradictory enough that you can interpret it how it pleases you. There is no Pure gsopel to be teased forth from it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 01:37PM by dogblogger.

I can't get past this "pure" gospel you speak of. How do you define it?

Only in the Adamic Tongue.

parable of the Good Samaritan,

Golden Rule: Do onto others as you would have them do to you.


Love: Honesty, Kindness, Charity-Compassion; empathy. Respect for all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 02:25PM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
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> parable of the Good Samaritan,
>
> Golden Rule: Do onto others as you would have
> them do to you.
>
>
> Love: Honesty, Kindness, Charity-Compassion;
> empathy. Respect for all.


I was with you until the "Respect for all." Sorry man, I'm not going there.

Don't to agree with everyone or support them, I intend this to be respecting them as separate individuals.

"Respect" & "Respecting" have meanings in my mind that are obviously a few shades different than your meanings, but that's the human condition.

You make it sound as if respect does not need to be earned, which is how I view it. Where you might say, "I respect your right to be alive" I might say, "I admit you are alive, and I'm watching you...".

I want to do things to my partner that they couldn't possibly do to me.

I think Hie has it right, it's about social order in the group, regardless of the lipstick people want to put on it.