Oh Jeez. Only in Utah would a grade school teacher not know what ash Wednesday is.;

http://www.ksla.com/2019/03/07/boy-forced-wipe-ash-wednesday-cross-off-forehead-utah-school/

He has legal grounds to sue the school district. That was totally unacceptable and inappropriate. As a school teacher she is lacking in education herself.

Can you imagine the response from LDS Inc. law department if a teacher, in another state, made a mormon kid remove his garments in class? The grandfather was right. Not only did the teacher not understand Ash Wednesday, she didn't understand the 1st Amendment. Utah.

But any teacher who makes a kid take his/her underwear off in class should be fired and sued.

We used to joke about normal underwear being Aaronic Priesthood underwear (the lesser priesthood).

But, seriously, Mormons don't get temple garments until they're at least 18 years old (often quite a bit older).

A better analogy for a school kid might be a CTR ("Choose The Right") ring that some Mormon kids wear on their fingers. Other than that Mormon kids don't get much in the way of religious trinkets or symbols to play with. They don't even get to wear crosses. I guess another similar situation could be if a Mormon kid was carrying a Book of Mormon around everywhere and the teacher confiscated it.

The teacher apologized. So that should be sufficient. We all make mistakes.

That's a gross violation of the boy's civil rights under EEO laws. His family has a clear case for religious discrimination if they want to bring one. An apology is nice, but the damage has been done.

She shamed and humiliated the boy in front of his peers for observing Ash Wednesday. How absurd is that?

Maybe the family won't take any legal action, but they could if they want to.

Putting dirt on your forehead ? How absurd is that ?

About as absurd as wearing charcoal eyeliner.

Not respecting a students First Amedment rights Absurd and illegal

Yes...Only in Utah....(fill in embarrassing info about mormons not being IN or OF this world...)

The kid went to the Catholic service, reaffirmed his faith to God, the Jesus, the pope...got the SYMBOLIC ashes on his forehead, then went to school where an "educated" teacher in mormonland...made him wash it off.

If I was the father I would be pissed too...BUT, since my son would have already done his religious ceremony and then had the ashes removed...his son is still good in the eyes of God, Jesus, and the pope. Let's not forgot that part, some (nonmormon) religious training/sensitivity training is in order for the teacher....

(.....facepalm...)

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a gross violation of the boy's civil rights
> under EEO laws. His family has a clear case for
> religious discrimination if they want to bring
> one. An apology is nice, but the damage has been
> done.

Religious expression at a state sponsored institution is not protected expression. This is no different than schools not allowing prayers at their functions. In addition having grown up outside of Utah and having lived in Italy for more years than just my mission I can tell you that it is not common for Catholic children to come to school with the ash still on their forehead. This statement that the parents are making through their child started out absurd. I wouldn't want any Mormon kids walking though school touting their religion in such a manner. It's too aggressive. As well as a perfect demonstration of why the First Amendment should be interpreted very strictly when it comes to state sponsored religious activity.

Also EEO? The boy isn't employed by the school.

> She shamed and humiliated the boy in front of his
> peers for observing Ash Wednesday. How absurd is
> that?

The teacher was wrong and should have apologized. The school should help the teacher understand why it was wrong.

But it was the child's parents who humiliated the boy in front of his peers by having him come to school with dirt on his forehead. This is bad teaching and bad parenting.

> Maybe the family won't take any legal action, but
> they could if they want to.

The teacher and school didn't break any laws. And thinking that this is a gross violation of a law is just strange.

Lots of Catholics wear the ashes all day as do many Protestants. I had the news channels on most of the day and some of the commentators and guests had ashes. The kid was being asked about it by other kids and seemed to be handling it well. The teacher embarrassed him needlessly in front of the class.This could have been a teaching moment.

Whether it was illegal probably depends. If the teacher was wearing garments, the Mormon kids were wearing CTR rings, a Jewish kid as eating a star of David or a Muslim girl was wearing a hijab and she was OK with all of that but discriminated against the Catholic boy, he might have a case.

Passive quiet non disruptive expression , which this is most certainly , is very much protected both under freedom of speech and freedom of religion . not sure what law or court case you get your opinion from

Exactly. The supreme court case about the kids who chose to wear black armbands to school (I forget the reason) comes to mind.

TInker v Des Moines School District SCOTUS

His First Amendment rights were violated. That is religious discrimination protected by Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

"Public primary and secondary schools, as well as public colleges and universities, should be open to all members of the public, regardless of their faith. Students should not face discrimination or harassment because of their faith background, their beliefs, their distinctive religious dress, or their religious expression.

The Civil Rights Division's Educational Opportunities Section enforces Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based on religion in public primary and secondary schools, as well as public colleges and universities. Subsection (a)(1) authorizes the Attorney General to bring suit in response to a written complaint by a parent that a child is being "deprived by a school board of the equal protection of the laws." Subsection (a)(2) permits the Attorney General to bring suit upon receiving a written complaint that a student has been "denied admission to or not permitted to continue in attendance at a public college by reason of race, color, religion, sex or national origin." The Attorney General has delegated this authority to the Civil Rights Division.

Additionally, Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 permits the Attorney General to intervene in any action in federal court, involving any subject matter, "seeking relief from the denial of equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution on account of race, color, religion, sex or national origin," if such intervention is timely made and the Attorney General certifies that the case is of "general public importance." Enforcement of this provision also has been delegated to the Civil Rights Division, and the Division has participated in a number of education-related religious discrimination cases under Title IX.

Some of the types of cases handled by the Civil Rights Division:

Harassment: Title IV may be violated when teachers harass students because of their faith, or, in some cases, when schools are deliberately indifferent to pervasive student-on-student-harassment. For example, the Civil Rights Division reached a settlement in March 2005 with the Cape Henlopen, Delaware School District in a harassment case involving a fourth-grade Muslim student. The student filed a complaint with the Civil Rights Division that she had been harassed by her teacher about her faith in front of her class, including being ridiculed because her mother wore a headscarf. As a result, the student was repeatedly harassed by other students and missed several weeks of school due to emotional distress. The student alleged that the school failed to take adequate remedial action. The settlement required programs for teaching religious tolerance for both teachers and students, and special training and monitoring for the teacher at issue."

The parents could initiate a civil suit if they so decide to whether the Justice Department gets involved or not. I know of parents who've sued for less.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/combating-religious-discrimination-and-protecting-religious-freedom-20

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2019 08:32PM by Amyjo.

It was a sucky apology "I hope we can move forward from here" i.e., I hope you let me off the hook and act like it didn't happen. Her ignorance in this case requires a bit more than a "my bad, sorry". She humiliated him in front of his friends for practicing his religion. She's a teacher. A good response would be to teach a presentation to the school about different religious observances and how to show respect.

Yes we all make mistakes but this goes beyond a mistake . this is ignorance and stupidity .Last time I checked a person needed a college degree to teach . Are teachers now this %#+*]! Stupid ? I would suspend this teacher for two weeks without pay and make it required to bring back an essay on religious rights of students and an essay on religious practices of the worlds major religions . Possibly a Dunce cap in the classroom would be in order. Certainly would fit .

A dunce cap would in my opinion be a great response. The teacher made a very stupid mistake and embarrassed the boy and the school district.

If I were her, I would voluntarily wear a dunce cap to shift the laughter to myself. Then I would probably leave the dunce cap in the corner of the room for the rest of my teaching career to use as an object lesson in human ignorance and the inevitability that authority figures make mistakes.

I think that is a great idea.

stillanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh Jeez. Only in Utah would a grade school teacher
> not know what ash Wednesday is.;

And that's the crux of course. I thought UT had advanced; sad to see it hasn't.

How could she be so culturally isolate. (rolls eyes).

notmo

I'm sure the teacher will study up on Catholicism.
I can't wait for when she tells him that he belongs to the Great and Abdominal church and the Whore of the Earth. That should be fun.

The kid explained that it was a Catholic religious thing. She totally ignored it. He might as well have said he was a secret vampire hunter from the Vatican.

that it was a religious thing. So it wasn't really a matter of being ignorant about that. The ignorance was in the form of her ignorantly believing that it was her right and responsibility to police the religious expressions of children regardless of any question of whether the expression in question was inherently disruptive or of a nature that public order interests could be balanced against First Amendment interests.

That kind of overreaching by teachers aimed at imposing the teacher's personal values under color of authority is unfortunately not all that rare.

"Later in the day he received candy and a handwritten note"

What is the one thing most kids give up for Lent? In my experience, candy!!

Talk about rubbing salt in the wound...

No Shit!

Every year, made the Easter basket a treasure trove after 40 days of no sweets.

One of my children gave up video games for Lent his freshman year of college to show solidarity with his Catholic and other observing peers. It was hard on him, but he made it. He really wanted to see if he could do it.

:)

Many protestants also do Ash Wednesday. The teacher should have known about it but I am not surprised that she didn't. Perhaps the school district should educate teachers on major holidays of other religions. A few years ago my school scheduled major testing on the Jewish High Holy Days and was put out when Jewish parents complained. They did accommodate the kids reluctantly but basically thought the parents were being unreasonable and silly Yet the Mormon Church has asked districts not to schedule school activities on Mondays because of Family Home Evening.

"Many protestants also do Ash Wednesday."


I had no idea ...

The ignorance is embarrassing.

But how can all Utah teachers learn from this? It's been a story in papers and TV from NY to LA. Newsweek and Yahoo. But, nary a peep from Utah's church approved official newspaper, the Deseret News. That's also embarrassing.

The Lord's Newspaper has more important things to cover, like BYU sports.

I'm sure that someone in every school will likely read this story in the news or see it on TV or the internet. This will be a subject of discussion at break time and over lunch. Teachers don't want to be publicly humiliated and they'll be talking about the pros and cons of this for many weeks to come. Administrators will also bring it up in faculty meetings now and in years to come.

I was a teacher for over thirty years and I've seen how these things work.

Plus, a lot of networking goes on behind the scenes.

Teachers sometimes make boneheaded mistakes. Goodness knows, I've made my fair share. But this was a 4th grader who seemed to have the capacity to state clearly that the ashes were a form of religious expression. Whenever a teacher hears that something constitutes religious expression, a lightbulb should go off in her head. And a wise teacher who does not know what to do would normally punt in that situation (i.e. ask or email the principal for direction as to what to do.) Public school teachers *know better* than to mess with religion. Or they should know better. Having said that, a wise mom would have sent a note to school explaining the religious observance. I have parents that do that and I am always grateful that they give me a heads-up. It might be that the mom grew up in a non-Mormon area and had no idea that the ashes would not be understood.

I used to go with my mom (after school) to get the ashes. It's an understated but powerful ceremony -- a visible reminder that you are mortal and will one day die and turn to dust -- "ashes to ashes, dust to dust." During the Lenten season, I remember seeing a number of statues, etc. shrouded in purple in the church. There are no flowers, no signs of life. Everything goes quiet and somber for a period of time in advance of the joyous explosion of Easter. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, the universal theme of death/rebirth is quite moving.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2019 07:35PM by summer.

Summer, you make some valid points, but I can't let this go;
"It might be that the mom grew up in a non-Mormon area and had no idea that the ashes would not be understood."

No. Everywhere in the world, except Utah is a non-mormon area. The mom lives in Bountiful and her kid goes to a different church than all the rest of his classmates. The teacher should have acted better. If she HAD to tell the kid to remove his ashes without asking an administrator, she should have talked to him in the hallway, not in front of the whole class and not make him wipe it off in front of the class. It's the ignorant mormon teacher, not the kid's mom that should've been thinking. Now, the teacher is on paid leave while they're investigating and her ward members are holding a rally for her. Unbelievable.

I find it really hard to believe that someone with a college degree and a grade school teacher doesn't know what Ash Wednesday is. One doesn't have to be Catholic to know this. It's on every published calendar practically in the western world. What is she teaching those kids besides ignorance and stupidity?

I'm highly educated but have never seen a person with a cross on their forehead on Ash Wednesday.

I'm with the poor teacher on this one. She has to be the protector of every kid's rights to religious expression while keeping the class in line, and also teaching them some stuff. Now she is on leave and under investigation, and front page news? What next? Legal action? Court case? Resignation, sacking?

No wonder teachers across the Western World are leaving their jobs in droves.

Religious expression rights should not trump common sense.

When it comes to something like this, the balancing test would be whether the religious expression in question was so disruptive to the class as a whole that the only reasonable way to eliminate the disruption would be to impose reasonable time and place restrictions (as in "you're free to engage in this expression, but not in this classroom during class time").

For example, if a student were to claim that on this certain day, his religion requires him to stand up every 10 minutes, face eastward and loudly blow on a conch shell 3 times, the teacher would be justified in asking him to either leave the class and blow his conch shell elsewhere or abstain from engaging in that particular form of religious expression while in class. (IOW, the rights of the other students and the teacher to not be exposed to such disruption in the classroom during class time easily takes priority.)

But in this case, no evidence is given that the ash daub created any kind of disruption at all.

In fact, the teacher apparently created a disruption by making a scene that didn't need to be made.

Accordingly, the balancing test would likely go against the teacher. She made a mountain out of a mole hill. She made a canyon out of a minor scratch. She made a volcanic eruption out of an ash daub on a forehead. She should be reassigned to a different job--maybe supervisor of adhesive paste jars, with responsibility for keeping the children from eating too much paste.

>>>For example, if a student were to claim that on this certain day, his religion requires him to stand up every 10 minutes, face eastward and loudly blow on a conch shell 3 times...


Honestly, that is how I feel about an employee who has to go pray at certain times on a mat with his butt in the air. (See? Don't feel picked on, Catholics.) It definitely takes planning to make sure that employee can stop what they are doing and go to their "quiet place." It's one more thing to work around at work.

It can't be convenient for teachers to have all sorts of special things they have to work around either.

Religious garb and doo-dads like ash on a forehead, crosses, CTR rings, yamakas, etc. say to me: "Look at me! I'm special and need to show everyone I do what I'm told for God." Alrighty then.

I have no idea where you have lived in your life. But I have always known about Ash Wednesday and I didn't grow up Catholic. But then, I grew up on the East Coast and there are Catholics everywhere.

>>No wonder teachers across the Western World are leaving their jobs in droves.

Yup. Teachers are like referees. They have to make a call in the heat of the moment with a LOT going on. And I don't know of one referee (NFL, MLB, Premier League, etc.) who doesn't make a colossally bad call every once in a while. Teachers do make bad calls. In most cases an apology and a chat with his or her supervisor suffices.

For larger problems there are further remedies such as a letter of reprimand. A nontenured teacher might lose his or her job. For very serious issues, a teacher might be removed from the classroom or the police might even get involved if it's something like an assault.

Unless this teacher was deliberately showing malice, milder disciplinary measures would probably suffice.

I'm quite frankly distrubed by those people who think this metits automatic firing, a personal lawsuit, or wearing a dunce cap. Our job is already lacking in dignity. I can't tell you how many years I've been called a "B" EVERY WORKING DAY (for asking a child to pick up a pencil and do some work.) How many times I've been kicked or punched. How many times I've been threatened. How many times my car has been deliberately damaged. How many THOUSANDS of dollars I've spent on classroom supplies.

Perhaps every person on this board who has ever seriously annoyed a client, customer, or patient should put on a dunce cap.

Let the school district deal with this teacher. There is no doubt they will deal with her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2019 01:53PM by summer.

In my mind the dunce cap is simply a teaching prop.

If the teacher made a mistake and the kid was embarrassed, the teacher might want to make a statement turning an unintentional slight into a statement of support for different cultures and ethnicities. It would be an easy way to defuse the situation, make the kids laugh, and make a statement to the community.

I don't know, but my guess is that the schools in this part of Utah are not places where students call teachers "bitches."

My point was it is already a demanding, difficult job. School districts are having an increasingly difficult time recruiting teachers. We "take it on the chin" (metaphorically if not figuratively) every day. We are not very well respected in the U.S., and that is reflected in public attitudes and public policy. I am simply asking for a measured response from all concerned.

The interesting thing is that I am hearing that poor behavior on the part of students is starting to spread to the suburbs (depending on the suburb.) I'm not sure why this is the case.

I understand and accept your point.

I have been hesitant to write about the subject of this thread as opposed to the details. On the one hand freedom of speech and association (and by extension religion) are critically important to a free society, so I take the boy's experience seriously. On the other, I wonder if the teacher intentionally did anything wrong--specifically whether suspension is not an overreaction. I don't know the details, so I'm not sure how this should play out.

On a different level, however, it seems to me that humor may (I am guessing) be a good way to defuse the situation. That's all I'm suggesting. And I admit that I don't know enough to state that firmly.

Summer,

Do you think the teacher might have been worried that a student with "dirt" on his face would directly reflect on her job performance as a teacher?

Demeaning the teacher doesn't help students. She made a mistake and the school and teacher need to take a breath and try to rectify the situation.

To the boy, someone should say, "Your teacher made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and they need to learn from them. She says she won't do this again. Do you believe her? How can she and the school workers help you to feel better? A note? An apology? A hug and pat on the back? Those ideas might work."

If not, the child might be placed in another classroom or school. Dwelling on this forever won't help anyone. Nor will dunce caps or firing an otherwise effective teacher, assuming she is competent in every other way.

She also told the grandmother she hadn't read the 1st Amendment

lots of Catholics leave ashes smeared on their forheads on Ash Wednesday. I remember telling one of them: "you have dirt on your forehead." They explained about Ash Wednesday and I understood.

I don't know why the teacher made such a fuss. It was just a little ash on his forehead - it's not like his entire face was covered. Jeez.

That's exactly how I learned about it. In elementary school, my closest friends were three sisters who lived just up the street from me. They were Catholics. The first time I saw all three of them with a smudge of ashes on their foreheads, I asked what that was all about. They told me. Very matter-of-fact.

We went to school on the bus, and at school, several other kids had the ash smudges, too. There wasn't any teasing or snarkiness. The explanation was just "They are Catholics, and that's something they do." No big deal.

I learned about this in the very early 1950s. I am amazed that a teacher would not have been exposed to a widely practiced Catholic ritual.

I'm half joking here but trying to think about why these situations happen.

So, I take it a teacher should know to allow a child to wear a colander on his head when his parents tell him the Flying Spaghetti Monster needs him to do that on a special day.

As stupid as that teacher was about this, she didn't know.

I suppose there are pockets of religious regions where they really don't know a lot about other religions. Utah is just one of them. Just because there are a lot of Catholics, is everyone supposed to know about it and every whack-a-doodle thing every different kind of religious person might do?

I don't think people should be expected to know about Ash Wednesday but I do think if the child SAYS it is religious, the teacher should check before taking any action. That includes colanders. The fact she didn't believe the child and give him the benefit of the doubt bothers me more than the teacher being clueless about other religions.

This general endorsement is subject to the proviso that said colander must be clean (so that other children are protected from germs) and must be securely fastened, so as not to be at risk of falling off with a loud, clanging, banging noise during class time.

There should be zero tolerance for loud colander drops. One noisy clanging banging drop and it's okay to expel either the colander by itself or the colander and kid together. School administrators can deal with the repercussions from the FSM later. (Just as an aside, the FSM tends to lack any kind of stiff resolve when challenged, so not much to worry about in the long run.)

The basic problem is that Mormons don't know diddly about Easter traditions because they just barely celebrate Easter, and don't celebrate any of the other Lenten traditions at all. They do know that Easter is associated with candy, but have no idea why (it is far and away the most common item given up for Lent, especially by children, but common even for adults)

Shrove Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Holy Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy (or Black) Saturday are holy days of obligation that most Mormons (at least of the BIC Utah variety) probably don't even recognize, with the possible exceptions of Good Friday and Palm Sunday. I would have included Ash Wednesday in the list of days Mormons would know about, but this teacher clearly wasn't aware of it.

I learned just now that technically, Easter Sunday is not part of Holy Week. It marks the end of Lent, and is a day of celebration. No more fasting or metaphorical sackcloth and ashes, you get to wear new clothes, big family dinner, yada yada.

I have Russian relatives, and I remember as a child going to my grandparents for Easter dinner. There were a number of Russian dishes that were only done once a year for that dinner, and when the other Orthodox relatives arrived, they were always greeted with a hug and a kiss and the phrase (in Russian) "Christ is risen!", too which the guest replied "Yes, He is risen". The greeting phrase sounded like Kristos Voskres.

As an LDS kid, I was fascinated. It was like this alien culture. Which I guess, technically, it was.

Anyway, Mormons' ignorance of THE most important Christian tradition is going to make it pretty hard for them to convince the rest of the Christian world that calling themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ" is not just pretense, if not outright blasphemy.

Meanwhile, I bet an explanation of Ash Wednesday to the staff will be another thing that school administrators in the Mountain West will now have to add to their To-Do Lists. D'oh!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2019 09:56PM by Brother Of Jerry.

"Anyway, Mormons' ignorance of THE most important Christian tradition is going to make it pretty hard for them to convince the rest of the Christian world that calling themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ" is not just pretense, if not outright blasphemy."


Winner, winner-chicken dinner!!!

Do some mormon children wear CTR rings to school?

I did in first grade (outside of Utah).

I suspect that this Catholic family has experienced no end of slights and insulting behavior living in Boutiful, Utah. Then, something so clearly wrong is done to their child that nobody in any position of authority is stepping forward to defend it, although some Utahns are trying to blow it off. Of course they are going to throw a fit. This is no isolated incident to them. This is more like the straw breaking the camel's back.

Lots of shame and outrage is coming down on this teacher, but this teacher is just the outlet for all the anger over all the years over all of the infuriating behavior nonMormons in Utah are subjected to. Don't get me wrong, the teacher screwed up, just like so many of the rest of them do every day to their nonMormon neighbors.

The irony of course is that many of the obnoxious Mormon who nurture this hostile environment for nonMormons in Utah are probably criticizing this teacher tonight while blithely ignoring whatever insulting or discriminatory thing they did over the last week to some random nonMormon.

(just for discussion)

teacher's first responsibility is to teach, this happens both in academic & by 'social' example. For some years, a pregnant teacher wouldn't be allowed in school, 'bad example'.

Also, a teacher has a certain amount of discretion as to the classroom s/he is required to be in. It's part & parcel of the position.

Both certain freedoms AND responsibilities apply in a public setting, whether the courthouse, and administrative office, or other.

This SHOULD NOT have been done in front of the other students!

that made a 'bad guy' out of a sincere, apparently religious student.






1

This is a good idea if there was such a private place available. Teachers are required to be with their students every minute unless there's a recess or lunch break. These are few and far between. No teacher wherever I have taught would be allowed to take a child into the hall or another room even for a moment if it meant leaving students in their room without the teacher present.

I often had to have "private" conversations in a corner or with backs to the class and sometimes kids would crane to overhear even though they were told to do assigned tasks and pay attention to their own work.

It's simply not possible to take care of every situation in private because the life of the class goes on and teachers can't allow for kiddies to get into trouble by not being properly supervised. If someone gets badly injured because of that, it's an offense which calls for suspension or being fired.