Because it’s disingenuous and psychologically damaging. Were the Amish persecuted in the 19th century? Pentecostals? Baptists? What made Mormons so special? Oh yeah, they had the truth. Yup, they were persecuted because they’re God’s special people, not because they were bad neighbors. Guess what. If Mormons were actually nice people they would have been welcome everywhere they went.

The church doesn’t own up to its bad behavior. No wonder Oaks said they don’t apologize. The shameless have nothing to apologize for. But the church has plenty to be ashamed about. Projecting its own moral failings onto those it wronged, as a way of shirking accountability, comes to mind. But here they are in the 21st century perpetuating the lie of persecution.

The members don’t escape this twisted logic, but get caught up in it. They get to look down on an inferior world, one that “persecutes them”, instead of looking at themselves.

But who knows, maybe that will be Rusty’s next big move. Apologizing for all of the church’s victim blaming and using fake victimhood as a crutch when it should have been promoting honest introspection.

My wife and I were driving back from Kentucky this weekend and passed within a few miles of Nauvoo and Carthage, the scene of my notorious "Nauvoo Vacation" a few years ago when I lit into sister missionary who, with my wife's promptings, would not simply allow me to agree to disagree about Mormon history.

Seeing a road sign pointing to Carthage, my wife felt prompted to ask whether I "really didn't believe Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage."

I wasn't really sure she was going with that because I never said anything of the sort. Regardless, I answered, "Oh, I've never denied he was murdered in Carthage. My issue was with the narrative that he was a righteous man who was 'martyred' for his faith. What the church doesn't tell you is that he was a philandering conman who had finally gone too far in the eyes of many neighbors and followers when he destroyed the local newspaper in a failed attempt to prevent the truth from getting out."

A lot of trouble in Nauvoo likely stemmed from the early comers pissing everyone off, and then the late commers ending up getting the brunt of the persecution when they really had nothing to do with it. I know that was the case in one of my ancestors, a wealthy man from Pennsylvania showed up and was so impressed with Smith that he sold off his farm and brought a pile of cash. He met with Smith 2 months before he died and then got caught up in the mess, and had to vacate to Utah. I'm sure he perpetuated the persecution narrative for in his mind it was true.

Then there was all the handcart pioneers from Denmark and Sweden who suffered. They had to tell themselves something to console their suffering. The human mind has to have an enemy to direct it's energies in hating. It couldn't be that the English were racist against the Scandinavians, or that the leaders were bad leaders. No it had to be the Missourians caused all this mess or something? And the devil is really mean.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of trouble in Nauvoo likely stemmed from the
> early comers pissing everyone off, and then the
> late commers ending up getting the brunt of the
> persecution when they really had nothing to do
> with it. I know that was the case in one of my
> ancestors, a wealthy man from Pennsylvania showed
> up and was so impressed with Smith that he sold
> off his farm and brought a pile of cash. He met
> with Smith 2 months before he died and then got
> caught up in the mess, and had to vacate to Utah.
> I'm sure he perpetuated the persecution narrative
> for in his mind it was true.
>
> Then there was all the handcart pioneers from
> Denmark and Sweden who suffered. They had to tell
> themselves something to console their suffering.
> The human mind has to have an enemy to direct it's
> energies in hating. It couldn't be that the
> English were racist against the Scandinavians, or
> that the leaders were bad leaders. No it had to be
> the Missourians caused all this mess or something?
> And the devil is really mean.

Nauvoo was just one big pooch screw. No wonder Emma wanted to dial things back to the Kirkland era when her and her son started the RLDS church.

I lived in St. Louis in the 70's when DH was getting his graduate degree. I worked in a local bank. Kit Bond was the gov of MO at the time and for some reason, he decided it was time to lift the extermination order that Boggs had put on the mormons way back when. It made the local news and of course, my co workers wanted to know what that was all about. I was really surprised they hadn't studied about it in their Missouri history classes, but nope, they'd never heard of it. I was quite disappointed in the school system for not emphasizing how that state had treated the mormons. lol

The true story is more complex than the LDS think. Soon before the Extermination Order, during a period in which the Danites were active, Sydney Rigdon, fine man that he was, gave a speech in which he said:

"We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever. For from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.—Remember it then all MEN."

Boggs reacted to that by saying Missourians must consider Mormons "enemies" and drive them out of the state or exterminate them. It is neither clear that Boggs would have taken that step without Rigdon's provocation, nor that his policy was significantly worse than what the Mormons were bent upon.

babaloncansuckit said

<<The members don’t escape this twisted logic, but get caught up in it. They get to look down on an inferior world, one that “persecutes them”, instead of looking at themselves.<<

This is exactly why not only will they not stop playing it, it is getting worse as the WASPS have picked up big time on playing the "they're persecuting us white, religious, priveleged people." So now they have plenty of company.

You are so right that there are so many people in that category who need to feel like they're looking down on an inferior world so they don't have to look at themselves. I especially know so many mormons for whom the only way they can feel good about themselves is if they are putting other people down. Granted, they don't have any accomplishments of their own, but they don't understand that because they DO have money and that should be all they need to be happy and feel good, why doesn't it work? So it has to be because they are being persecuted and those they deem beneath them are ruining it for everybody.

Exactly. I was just wondering, with what I have why am I not completely happy? Something is left from the Mormon days. Negativity because.... ok cuz what? Maybe I discovered one more bad thinking habit to unwind. Thanks Mormonism.

I know of no group that goes by any word that starts with "M" that plays the persecution card. But the beloved wondrous peculiar organization that I've been raised and groomed into does indeed play the persecution card. Why it does is a mystery to me as I'm not really big on asking questions as its a critical part of the Correlation program teachings that we not ever become real askers of questions. What is emphasized are other things, like the teaching that we are so persecuted, persecuted, and persecuted. Oh and another thing that is emphasized is obedience and they've taught us that we need to remember that we claim to have been persecuted. Thus I remind you that we claim to have been persecuted.

Well I got to go now. I'm supposed to go remind the neighbors who haven't been assimilated into our gospel that we are a peculiar people who have been persecuted but that we need to get them assimilated in. We've been taught that we can know our message is true because the wicked will reject it. And guess what, my neighbors have rejected it in the past. They must be wicked. I guess that means we're being persecuted in being surrounded by wicked people. Oh my how we are persecuted.

LOL of course not. It makes them feel more righteous and elect and therefore better about themselves. Plus it makes everyone else the bad guys.

Actually, none of them are actually BEING persecuted (exception made for missionaries in Russia). But it's enough for them to FEEL persecuted. In mormonland, not getting your way = persecution. (To be fair though, evangelicals and fundie christians feel the same way.)

Probably not. Rusty made it easier for them to play it. "Stop calling me a Mormon, you are persecuting me!"

“Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I’m being repressed!”

LOL

Persecution is built into Mormonism just as the name Mormonism is built into the cult. The leaders have bilked it for all its worth, using it like the other lies they use to paint themselves pure and delightsome. And, no they will never stop using it.

I still have a hard time with the statement made by Oaks that there is no need for apologies; a statement that never even met a rebuke from the church. Therefore, the church who thinks it is the "one true church" declares it does not have any need to ever apologize, and thereby never will apologize for the many times it lied about being persecuted. By making such a statement, Mormonism has shown itself to be beyond ARROGANT.

My thinking is that the statements said to be uttered by Jesus of Nazareth would place Jesus' take on Mormonism right up there with the Pharisees in tying for the Blue Ribbon of Arrogance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2019 05:28PM by presleynfactsrock.

Mormons always cite the Missouri governor's "extermination proclamation" as evidence of their persecution by Missourians.

They neglect to note that their own Sidney Rigdon in a public sermon SIX MONTHS before that had himself proclaimed that the Mormons were in "war of extermination" with Missouri. The sermon, delivered on July 4, was printed up in pamphlet form and widely circulated.

The Mormons invited their own persecution by declaring they would "exterminate" their Missouri opponents.

Most people play the hand they are dealt. Mormons play the hand they want people to think they were dealt.

When you have no aces up your sleeve, the joker, persecution card, is very useful.

Loving this thread! I think Mormons play the card because it distracts them from the people whom they persecute among their own community - LGBT who choose to "act" on their feelings, individuals who feel like they never measure up to societal expectations, and intellectually minded members who question the church's pitfalls.

A guy pushes you around for years and years, and you finally say you've had enough. "You're persecuting me," he whimpers. My experience.

I dunno. The Mormons have never come clean on its own history, including what it did to the Jews in the Holocaust or how it assisted Hitler with the Final Solution.

They didn't stand with the Resistance Fighters or the Righteous Among the Nations, but with the slithery lying serpents who were committing mass murder and genocide.

Until they square off with their own history, I have to ask, what persecution? What happened in Nauvoo was a war that Joseph Smith literally brought on as he tried to create his own government and secede from the what was then the Union. He'd formed his own militia. Had plans to rule the world if he could have. Sound crazy? He was. Crazy like a fox. If only he'd had the wherewithall to put them into action. Maybe he wasn't Hitler, but when you see Warren Jeffs he is the reincarnation of Joseph Smith Jr. Evil, cunning and designing to the core.

So I'm not really sure that the persecution card, at least for today, even applies in the case of the Mormons given their history and how they've persecuted minorities since its inception. They have their pass for religious freedom. They haven't earned the respect that comes with that until they can respect all people and treat others with the same dignity and respect they expect to be given.

A 2-yr-old thread where a TBM tried to play the persecution card with us regarding Haun's Mill – it didn't go too well for him:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1969409

Joseph Smith scammed, lied and ripped off people left and right. He had illicit sex with some people's daughters and wives. He sought political power and glory for himself and used Church assets to get it. He carried out a historical financial swindle in Kirtland. He ripped off and plagiarized Masonic symbols and rituals shortly after joining a Masonic lodge. He had violent thugs on his payroll (e.g. Orin Porter Rockwell). He practiced polygamy in secret, while publicly proclaiming complete innocence. He destroyed a printing press that attempted to report the truth about his secret polygamy club.

Naturally, he had enemies and those enemies sometimes sought retribution and revenge. Joseph Smith labeled it as "persecution" and deceptively postured as a martyr. He moved gullible followers around like chess pieces to advance his personal ambitions and sometimes they got caught in the crossfire.

Then there were the Danites and the violent plygs in Brigham Young's plyg faction.

They were "persecuted" in the same way that the Gambino crime family was "persecuted" or the Medellin Cartel was "persecuted".

There probably were cases where vigilantes and mobs sought frontier justice against Joe Smith's church and innocent people got hurt as a result. But, to a large extent, it was Joe himself that placed innocent followers between his angry enemies and himself.

revealed the violent, thieving and dishonest "organized crime" element that existed in the Mormon Church under Brigham Young and which in all likelihood had already been fully formed and existed under Joseph Smith as well.

As with many "Mafia" type criminal organizations, the members of the criminal gang use a particular community as a base of operations. They mix and mingle with members of the community, with many of the ordinary people in the community being generally oblivious to what the criminal element is doing. Like the cliche of the mafia hit-man's wife who doesn't know any details about what her husband actually does for a living and, importantly, DOES NOT WANT TO KNOW.

Then when the rival gang decides to hit back, all you hear is: "Why are they persecuting us? Why?"

Brigham stated that he only worried about the saints when they had peace and prosperity. That is when they strayed.

If they were being persecuted, they banded together and followed the prophet.