Then why doesn’t the church use Indian Fry Bread for its sacrament?

Why doesn't it use matzo?

Yes, matzah. It is unleavened though and is only really used during Passover and Seders.

I say go all out and serve Matzo ball soup. That way you can get your bread and water at the same time, and just do a mixed blessing. A matzo ball is very filling, and the chicken soup is very Jesus.

Making me hungry. I have a soup mix but need eggs. Have to go to the store anyway. Have been craving soups this past week so it's time to use it.

:/

I thought the Mormons taught that they Native Americans were descended from Manasseh?

Very different than Jews (though many lump them together).

The idea is that the Tribes who were not part of Judah either went East (to Asia...which would mean someone in Asia should be related to the Native Americans) or North into Europe.

Still does not make them having gone over the sea (and any connections to Asia occurred over 10,000 years ago, so far before any Book of Mormon things), but they wouldn't be connected as closely to Jews (short for those from the tribe of Judah).

Still, valid question. If they feel the Native Americans are the descendants of the Book of Mormon, and Fry Bread is the bread Native Americans made (not sure if this is true)...would seem to me to be a valid thing they could use.

"If they feel the Native Americans are the descendants of the Book of Mormon, and Fry Bread is the bread Native Americans made (not sure if this is true)...would seem to me to be a valid thing they could use."

Fry bread came on the scene long after the Book of Mormon stories allegedly came to an end. It began with government rations when Indians were being removed and confined to reservations. It isn't a healthy food.
https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/my-new-year-s-resolution-no-more-fat-indian-food-M6Fd3dv8tkWPjg383hjFyA/

Fry bread does sound kind of gross.

Unless of course it is French toast. That would be my exception, with syrup on top.

The thought that was all they had to eat because of government rations? OMG.

How awful was that. They were impoverished to say the least.

Betty G Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought the Mormons taught that they Native
> Americans were descended from Manasseh?

What I remember being taught was that Laban and Lemuel, who were Nephi and Samuel's brothers, were so evil that God cursed them with a dark skin after they arrived in the Americas. That was when they became the "Lamanites," henceforth the Native American Indians.

TSCC doesn't teach that anymore. It is one of the doctrines it has scrubbed.

In patriarchal blessings most Mormons are told they are of the tribe of Ephraim, through the loins of Joseph. The exception is to be from the house of Manasseh via Joseph's loins. Either is ridiculous given both were Joseph's only children. It was Joseph and his eleven brothers who were considered to be the founding twelve tribes of Israel. Not Joseph's two sons. Joseph married an Egyptian princess, not a Jewish wife. Essentially his sons weren't really Jewish unless they converted.

> Very different than Jews (though many lump them
> together).
>
> The idea is that the Tribes who were not part of
> Judah either went East (to Asia...which would mean
> someone in Asia should be related to the Native
> Americans) or North into Europe.
>

There are Chinese Jews and Asian Jews who have lived in the Far East for centuries, perhaps millenia. None have been determined by DNA to have traveled to the Americas prior to migration patterns in the last several centuries.

> Still does not make them having gone over the sea
> (and any connections to Asia occurred over 10,000
> years ago, so far before any Book of Mormon
> things), but they wouldn't be connected as closely
> to Jews (short for those from the tribe of
> Judah).

Eggzactly.

>
> Still, valid question. If they feel the Native
> Americans are the descendants of the Book of
> Mormon, and Fry Bread is the bread Native
> Americans made (not sure if this is true)...would
> seem to me to be a valid thing they could use.

Yeah, but since they aren't it becomes a moot point. Unless an Indian wanted to convert to Judaism which there are no laws prohibiting them from doing that.

Their gods were not the monotheistic god of the Torah or the bible. They worshiped "spirits in the sky" and more of a naturist type of god as envisioned in the world around them.

They Aren't.

If they were, they would never forget the answer to the question "Why is this night different from all other nights?"

...they would never have sold Manhattan for $24.00. They would have financed it over multiple generations at insane interest rates. Plus, I've never seen a Native-American owned pawn shop in the downtown Times Square/42 St. area..........

ConcernedCitizen 2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...they would never have sold Manhattan for
> $24.00. They would have financed it over multiple
> generations at insane interest rates. Plus, I've
> never seen a Native-American owned pawn shop in
> the downtown Times Square/42 St. area..........

In earlier times (ancient and medieval times, but lingering for a long time afterwards until the Enlightenment was underway) Christians were not allowed, by law, to lend money to other people, or to business or royal entities, for interest.

Because lending money for interest is an essential part of local, as well as royal and international, economics, Jews became an essential part of the financial structures of European societies, because (effectively) only Jews were allowed to lend for profit.

It was not so much that Jews chose to be bankers (etc.), but that they were COMPELLED to dominate certain financial sectors, due to the practical necessity of the population at large (from local farmers to royal rulers) having access to borrowed funds.

It was a niche that only Jews (and a few Arabs here and there) could be a part of.

By law and by royal decree, they were forced into financial sectors which Christians were forbidden to participate in.

These historical facts are not a legitimate, nor a reasonable, basis for anti-Semitic tropes ("multiple generations," "insane interest rates").



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2019 03:14PM by Tevai.

...I've already been referred to SPLC. I have been dutifully designated "a one-man hate group."

...sarcasm much?

ConcernedCitizen 2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...they would never have sold Manhattan for
> $24.00. They would have financed it over multiple
> generations at insane interest rates. Plus, I've
> never seen a Native-American owned pawn shop in
> the downtown Times Square/42 St. area..........

Hey, in all fairness, the NAI Today run and operate casinos across the nation from which they own independently from the government, and pay no taxes on their sovereign land. They are billion dollar enterprises, which trumpeth any lowly pawn shop in mid-town anywhere, USA.

...yeah....true. Plus, the casinos generally operate on Indian sovereign lands which are mostly outside of US labor laws and employee protections. So, if they don't like you, or they decide to 86 you, you are done. No workman's comp claims, unemployment, minimal OSHA and EPA oversight....etc. My friend fell off a ladder while employed at a big-time casino. They watched him on CCTV; they called him in, and that was it....."You're Fired!!" The casinos are usually managed thru the Tribal Council approach. So the Elders call for a meeting, decisions are made, enacted, and;

"The Tribal Council has spoken." Not too different from the First Presidencies pronouncements..........

Or corn tortillas?

https://jewishjournal.com/opinion/170393/

The Lemba people is a tribe of about 100,000 scattered across Zimbabwe, South Africa and Mozambique. We and they believe that they are descendants of one of the Lost Tribes. They have an oral tradition of having come down Africa through Yemen after being exiled from Israel after the Second Temple.

If you ask even the most assimilated of the village elders in their own language, they will hit their chest and exclaim “Jew.” They have always identified as Jews, as their African tribal name, Maremba MaJudah, implies. They have even suffered forms of consistent anti-Semitism by other tribes and colonialists throughout their history in the African Diaspora.

With only a handful of exceptions, the majority of the Lemba laymen in Zimbabwe have very little-to-no knowledge about modern-day Judaism and its practices, but their own Lemba traditions are strong and strikingly similar to many Torah practices (as will be elaborated on shortly).

On the other hand, there are a select few leaders that have come back into the fold and even undergone conversion. They are dynamic and thirsting to learn more about modern Judaism with the hopes of both giving over all of their new knowledge to the greater community and seeing an eventual mass return to their Jewish roots.

Some of the Lemba traditions include dietary laws such as not eating pork, seafood or insects, except for one type of locust that has special identification requirements. They don't mix milk and meat, appointing special butchers that must kill only the appropriate animals with special knives and in the most pain-free and quick ways, and not eating out or anyone's' house who is not a Lemba.

They also strictly perform and advocate for brit milah. For thousands of years they performed brit milah on the eigth day, but when missionaries began to come through their territories they declared a tribal-wide change of practice to performing brit milah on the eight year so that no one could persecute them or force them to convert.

The Lemba have traditionally watched for and declared the new moon with a horn, and made sure to have a new moon celebration. The celebration was encouraged and celebrated primarily by women. Our host told us stories of remembering how his grandmother used to go around telling all the children it was the new moon! For those readers that may not know, all of these traditions parallel the customs of the Torah.

Additionally, they have always had a traditional day of rest, and forms of celebration of Pesach, the new year, the day of self-affliction, and day of 'first fruit' offerings. They also have a seven day period of mourning, laws concerning the woman in her time of menstruation, and various gender separation and modesty customs.

We found out that many of them and their grandparents have names like Sukkot, Mishkan, Hillel, Miriam, Aviv, Shlomo, and my favorite… our host Modreck's given second name is Mordechai, and he has a tradition that his first born son should be (and is) named Yehudah, and that that name sequence should repeat. This discovery blew my mind because my Syrian brother-in-law Marcus' second name is Mordechai and he has a tradition that his first born son should be (and is) named Yehudah, and that that name sequence should repeat. Whoa!

Finally and almost unbelievably, genetic studies performed in the 90's show that a large percentage of the Lemba leadership do in fact have the “Cohen Gene.” Still, the purpose of our visit and this article were not to prove anything or deal with the issues in Halacha, lineage, intermarriage, or assimilation issues, etc.

DNA analysis has become an often wonderful, and frequently paradigm changing, scientific breakthrough for much of the planet, but (as with many new techniques and discoveries) it is also causing confusion.

As one example: within Judaism, where DNA analysis is proving to be a great deal more problematic than most Jews would have previously predicted (even though, once identified, the problem becomes instantly, spotlighted in klieg lights, "obvious").

Here is where the problem is:

By Jewish law (halacha), a "legal" Jew is one of two, mutually exclusive, groups:

1) Born of a Jewish MOTHER. (Jewish paternity does not count for purposes of Jewish identity, though it DOES count for reasons of Jewish status: whether a given Jew is, by biological descent, a kohain/"priest" or not.)

2) A convert (according to Jewish law) to Judaism.

Period.

No other options.

Now that we have DNA analysis, it has revealed some sizable problems in how to apply halacha (and "civil" law in Israel) to real-life, ancient through contemporary, situations.

Beginning in ancient times, there were many migrations of Jewish groups which settled all over much of the area of this planet, or were otherwise "cross-pollinated." (The story of the Queen of Sheba [today: Ethiopia], in the OT, is one good example.)

Again beginning in ancient times: Jewish groups and Jewish refugees migrated from their point of origin in Middle East, to the huge span of Eurasia, to Africa, to the Indian subcontinent, and to Asia. Jews today exist as racial members of most of the Earth's racial groups: White, Black, Asian, etc.

(Because of something I posted, I think last week, I have been looking at many videos of Israeli "lone soldier" stories on YouTube, all of which are set in the context of the larger Israeli Defense Forces. The span of racial and ethnic groups, in just regular groups of IDF soldiers (most of whom are Jews--some are Muslims, some are Druze, some are Christians, some are Samaritans, etc.), is startling. The Jews of this twenty-first century world are at the pinnacle of the most racially diverse peoples, not only on this planet, but throughout the course of world history.)

On a practical basis: Israel is a democracy, actual law and order exists in Israel, there are opportunities of all kinds available for most everyone in the nation, and the standard of living is (despite all the practical problems of daily life) high by the standards of most peoples in the world.

If "you" are in a Third World group which might conceivably claim Jewish ancestry, there is a whole lot of practical reason behind claiming that particular ancestry and, immediately afterwards, claiming your "right of return" to Israel.

So, in Israel, in one specific case, DNA analysis was required to validate the claim of one specific person "of Jewish ancestry" who wanted to leave Russia and immigrate to Israel.

Which (with 100% certainty, in hindsight) opened up a Jewish "Pandora's Box": By demanding DNA verification, Israeli authorities just, unwittingly, undermined Jewish law: that Jewish identity is, biologically, a product of MATERNAL (only!) descent. (As any Western civilization person knows: marriages with a Jewish FATHER and a non-Jewish mother abound.)

This, evidently, is one of the problems with the Lemba in Uganda. There is no question that they are of Jewish ancestry and Jewish culture. The halachic question is: Are they Jews? [Are each of them the ancestrally exclusive biological results of ONLY Jewish mothers (father don't count), from present day back to the hazy wisps of pre-history or history?]

They are, in reality, now on the same continuum that the Ethiopian Jews trod thirty or so years ago. Hard won precedent has already been lived, and is now in place.

Eventually, the Lemba will undoubtedly be allowed to immigrate into Israel. (For those whose Jewish identity is particularly questionable to Israeli authorities, halachic conversions will take up the slack.)

When the Lemba "come home" to Israel, they will find that no matter how difficult their individual transitions into becoming Israelis may be, those transitions will be much easier because of the Ethiopian Jews who lived and worked through this process a generation ago.

In physical appearance, the Lemba are a visibly different African group from those of Ethiopian descent.

In 2050, thirty years or so from now, it is going to be great viewing fun to see the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) videos which are made at that time.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2019 06:50PM by Tevai.

I was going to mention the "Cohen" genetics. I think that applies to about a third of the people, making them Levites.

I believe also that the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish DNA is Y-chromosome and not mitochondrial, meaning that the ancestors were predominantly male. This would indicate a high probability that the Palestinian influence was through traders and/or a trading colony.

...apparently, if one identifies as "Jewish", all criticism is verboten...a protected class?

God, what would these light-weight young Jews do when Jackie Mason, Henny Youngman, Joey Bishop do when they made jokes about their own culture?...........HATESPEACH?

…...as a society, we are so done with the PC BS.

ConcernedCitizen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...apparently, if one identifies as "Jewish", all
> criticism is verboten...a protected class?
>
> God, what would these light-weight young Jews do
> when Jackie Mason, Henny Youngman, Joey Bishop do
> when they made jokes about their own
> culture?...........HATESPEACH?
>
> …...as a society, we are so done with the PC BS.

There is a difference between "criticism" and stereotyping for the purposes of slurring a given group of people.

Comedians, authors, playwrights (etc.) of any group are given leeway to humorously poke fun at groups they, themselves, are members of. Could be women, men, Jews, Catholics, members of diverse sexual orientations, people from a specific geographical region or sub-culture, American Legionnaires--if you are a member of that group, you are allowed to poke [gentle] fun at that group's foibles or weaknesses.

In contrast, anti-Semitic (or anti-women, anti-gay, etc.) characterizations ("hate speech") often lead to people being marginalized, or not being allowed to take advantage of the rights they have as human beings or as Americans (etc.), or them (at some point) being actively discriminated against in employment (etc.), or denied their rights, or them being murdered.

You know full well when a given statement crosses the line from well-meaning humor into what we, now, all understand to be hate speech.

What you said echoes centuries of European hate speech, speech which, as it was transmitted through the generations, led directly to the murders of millions of people for nothing they (either individually or collectively) had done, but for simply "being" who they were.

And you know this fully as well as I do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2019 06:13PM by Tevai.

...snore. That thread of mine could have been by made any number of 50-60-70's Pocono dinner club Jewish comedians. Obviously, you have never been exposed to the Jewish nightclub circuit. Too bad for you...….you are probably too young. It was the best of American humor and the ability to make fun of ourselves...…………reducing it to PC culture destroyed it.

I really don't think the standard for behavior should be "it was permissible in the past therefore it's totally cool today." In many instances that will get you thrown in jail.

We've heard this before

"Conspiracy" (2001) --"The Reality Of The Jew"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMGbZswSz_w



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 12:04AM by anybody.

.......relax.....................and enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V4zYe23QLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1oQnDO9fVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEkiZNlOh4A

and you don't get to use the n-word if you're not African American.

That's just how it is.
Deal with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 06:11PM by anybody.

...dude...I feel sorry for you. You have missed out on a huge part of the American tradition of humor. You have been victimized by your belief in the PC culture. "Oh, we can't do that! Someone might be offended! I'm sorry, I'm soooo sorry!!

#ButtHurtLivesMatter

You *might* leave on a stretcher. If you're lucky.

Oh, and "political correctness" actually = treating others with respect. You might want to try that for once in your life.

"PC" is what those on the right call social and legal standards with which they disagree. The analogue is progressives who denounce people whom they dislike as "fascists."

Those terms are used as substitutes for thought. In this case PC means "anything that has happened since the 1950s that bothers me."

+1.0x10^9

You nailed it, LW.

Some people just can't stand it if they have to treat other people equally and use language that's not dominant.

If two Jewish guys call each other "heeb" or two black guys use the n-word in conversation with each other it's just a way of saying "were in the same boat" and have to put up with the same stuff. If you aren't in their group you don't get to do it.

I don't use words like that but I understand why some people do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 09:10PM by anybody.

...just for the record, I'm 100% simpatico with the JDL and JPFO. It's the ADL and SPLC that I view as suspect.......go figure. So right there that PROVES it!!.......I'm anti-Semitic!!.....funny.

"Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership has been highly critical of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). In pamphlets such as "Why Does the ADL Support Nazi-Based Laws?"[9] and "JPFO Facts vs. ADL Lies,"[10] the JPFO has accused the ADL of undermining the welfare of the Jewish people.

So your attitude towards Jewish organizations depends entirely on their attitude towards firearms? If they advocate peaceful means to achieve safety and equality they are suspect, but if they explicitly endorse guns and "firing back" you approve of them?

http://jpfo.org/alerts/alert20070920.htm

In this post you seem to endorse the notion that gun control laws are "Nazi-based." If that is the case, are gun control laws in Japan "Nazi-based" or do you need the historical presence of Jews and Nazis to render that judgment valid?

Sometimes you seem more interested in provoking people with asinine comments than in meaningful conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2019 07:17PM by Lot's Wife.

...sure...OK. Whatever you say. I mean, you have been the arbiter of all things I say, others say, and probably things that haven't even been said yet. So, I don't get offended at the criticisms from the board, you, or anyone else. Free-minded thinkers will glean, or surmise for themselves about the issues of the day. We don't need additional counsel or interpretations from others. You regard yourself as an academic; fine. Some of the world's greatest innovations and inventions have been done by the lowliest of us. See if you can keep expending your intellectual ammunition. As you say........society is changing. I do find this fun.........and, I think you will find me extremely resilient.

But I still have a crush on you.........

...plus, I'm gonna throw you this hardball pitch. (MLB)

..."It get's worse with every generation."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdtHZ_6oz9Q

Cute, as were your characterizations of me.

If we can dispense with your bluster, why do you only empathize with Jewish groups that espouse, implicitly or explicitly, violence?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2019 08:30PM by Lot's Wife.

"If we can dispense with your bluster, why do you only empathize with Jewish groups that espouse, implicitly or explicitly, violence?"

...I would only say, as others have said, " Better to die on your feet, than on your knees."

...using the typical anti-firearms-advocate diatribe, "The Jews were never going to be able to prevent the Holocaust, slow the Nazi machine, or even protect their families in the short term...even if they had a full arsenal of weapons."

...so one argument is..... "No, we don't think they could/would, or even wanted to protect themselves."

...But if they wanted to try...could that have made an impact?

Maybe, and maybe the world may have been more interested in coming to their aid....which they didn't.

...what would you do if your family was at such a risk?

Nice try.

You spew the usual low-brow anti-semitic nonsense, then say you agree with a subset of Jews who advocate violence. I ask why your acceptance of Jews is conditional, and rather than answer that question you attempt to pivot to a discussion of gun control.

I repeat: why aren't Jews good enough as human beings per se? Why must they endorse your political views before you grant them freedom from racist abuse?

...I'm fine with being your chew toy, but my response stands. If there isn't any merit in what I stated, feel free to disagree. It's an argument that has been debated for years. You think I'm anti-Semitic? You think I'm racist? You don't believe in a persecuted group wanting to protect itself? Nothing I say, at this point, will make any sense to you...not that it matters.

I guess I will just have to keep "spewing".....enjoy the show!

You aren't my chew toy. You are just a garden variety racist and provocateur, as several people in this thread have noted.

Grow up.

...OK, then, you are the board's version of Nancy Pelosi, to whom all must pay homage? Not likely.....at least not by this "garden variety racist"...maybe by your other sycophants and toadies.

https://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/08/Nancy-Pelosi-gavel-Associated-Press-640x480.jpg

Calling me names again?

Isn't it time for you--as you have suggested to others in this and other threads--to get up off your knees, wipe your chin, and act like an adult?

Dogzilla was right about you.

...probably, but as we know here on RFM, we must become "as little children" to enter back into Christ's presence. But anyway, in all fairness to you, since I posted my perceived pic of you, here's mine. A very good likeness if I do say so...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dwc1Y7DX4AAPbb4.jpg

...out the door, leaving for Mazatlan right now for fishing and family. I will return with the catch....hopefully. Internet/WiFi service unknown. Pray for me, my children.


XOXOXOXO

Thanks for sharing the Jackie Mason clips. They were really funny. The ones on the old Dean Martin shows, and one more recent.

Then I watched him giving a "lecture" at Oxford Univ in 1992 for an award there. He was still in form. Quite the entertainer he was. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQBPMCWAuyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dOLorAbtLw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 08:45PM by Amyjo.

If indians evolved from jews then why are there still jews ?

Bwaahaahaa.

How come you can't find a decent deli on an Indian reservation. When I go gambling at the casino or go to see Morris Day and the Time on the Res. I was to have decent bagels and maybe grab a hot pastrami and rye. All they had were buffalo meat hamburgers. I couldn't even find a kosher dill pickle.

The LDS sacrament is not kosher. It's levend bread. It's also been passed around the congregation with people sticking their fingers in the tray, old people and kids drooling in it, people sneezing on it. Did the priest who broke the bread wash his hands.

I'm a bit of a germaphobe and the sacrament always sicked me out to be honest with you.

...pimply-faced Aaronic PH kids who just took a bathroom break.

"What's in your Sacrament Bread?"

You don't like 16 year old wankers breaking your bread ?

DNA clearly shows that our "native Americans" came from Asia.

Therefore,the Book of Mormon is fiction. How hard is that to understand?

The Mormon church financially and morally oppresses people based on a false premise.

Any premise will do in a pinch though. They aren't that fussy.

It just occurred to me that if remains of early, Bering Strait-crossing, Native Americans/indigenous Canadians were found, and those remains contained what we now recognize as Jewish DNA markers, then the ripple effects of that discovery would be amazing to observe.

It would certainly change accepted chronology, as well as our current understanding of migration patterns, in substantial ways:

What we commonly call "the" Bering Strait crossing is thought to have occurred around 15,000 years ago, while Jews (as a recognizable human group) are thought to have begun around (more or less) 4,000 years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 07:24PM by Tevai.

Based on the evidence of what's been made available to date thus far, there is nothing to lend credence to Jewish DNA migrating to America up until after 1492.

One of the more recent DNA finds that had migrated through the Bering Strait app 20,000 yrs ago, was published in 2015.

"Ancient mitochondrial genomes from infants who lived more than 11,500 years ago in Beringia—the area of North America in the vicinity of the Bering Strait—have yielded tantalizing clues about how humans moved from Asia into new territory in the Americas. Using the latest ancient DNA technology, researchers from the University of Alaska and elsewhere sequenced the genomes from human remains found at a millennia-old burial site in Alaska’s rugged interior and found that two infants—one a premature baby and the other a 6-week-old—had different mothers, even though scientists had previously assumed they were twins. The research team published the findings in PNAS on Monday (October 26).

“This is the oldest human remain we've found so far north,” study coauthor Justin Tackney of the University of Utah told Live Science.

In addition to being very old, the remains of the children turned out to be very informative. One of the babies belonged to haplogroup C1b, and the other belonged to the B2 genetic lineage. Both lineages are present in modern Native Americans, but B2 was thought to be confined to southern tribes, such as the Navajo and Anasazi. Because representatives of the B2 lineage were previously thought to be absent from northerly latitudes, some anthropologists had hypothesized that the lineage’s ancestors populated the Americas in a wave of migration that was distinct from Siberians crossing the Bering land bridge some 20,000 years ago. The new findings suggest it may have been a single wave of migration that saw the ancestors of both the C1b and B2 haplogroups make it into the Americas. The children “may well be a remnant of that original Beringian group,” study coauthor Dennis O’Rourke of the University of Utah told The New York Times. “It may give us a snapshot of that earlier time.”

The burial site has also provided an unprecedented peek into ancient Beringian culture. The babies were carefully placed atop a bed of red ocher after they died, and their bodies were surrounded by antlers whittled into hunting darts. “These things we hardly ever find—it’s a very rare window into the worldview of these people,” study coauthor Ben Potter at the University of Alaska Fairbanks told the New York Times."

https://www.the-scientist.com/the-nutshell/ancient-dna-sheds-light-on-peopling-of-americas-34604

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on the evidence of what's been made
> available to date thus far, there is nothing to
> lend credence to Jewish DNA migrating to America
> up until after 1492.

My thoughts were circling around PRE-Jewish DNA.

The DNA markers from around 4,000 years ago (when Jews "began," according to the relevant evidence) came from SOMEWHERE--and if an intersection exists between earlier Jewish markers, and Asian/"Siberian" markers, then the pre-history of the Jews would need some significant alteration.

[I was also thinking: "Hmmmm, this could maybe be the kernel of a science fiction plot."]


> One of the more recent DNA finds that had migrated
> through the Bering Strait app 20,000 yrs ago, was
> published in 2015.
>
> "Ancient mitochondrial genomes from infants who
> lived more than 11,500 years ago in Beringia—the
> area of North America in the vicinity of the
> Bering Strait—have yielded tantalizing clues
> about how humans moved from Asia into new
> territory in the Americas. Using the latest
> ancient DNA technology, researchers from the
> University of Alaska and elsewhere sequenced the
> genomes from human remains found at a
> millennia-old burial site in Alaska’s rugged
> interior and found that two infants—one a
> premature baby and the other a 6-week-old—had
> different mothers, even though scientists had
> previously assumed they were twins. The research
> team published the findings in PNAS on Monday
> (October 26).
>
> “This is the oldest human remain we've found so
> far north,” study coauthor Justin Tackney of the
> University of Utah told Live Science.
> In addition to being very old, the remains of the
> children turned out to be very informative. One of
> the babies belonged to haplogroup C1b, and the
> other belonged to the B2 genetic lineage. Both
> lineages are present in modern Native Americans,
> but B2 was thought to be confined to southern
> tribes, such as the Navajo and Anasazi. Because
> representatives of the B2 lineage were previously
> thought to be absent from northerly latitudes,
> some anthropologists had hypothesized that the
> lineage’s ancestors populated the Americas in a
> wave of migration that was distinct from Siberians
> crossing the Bering land bridge some 20,000 years
> ago. The new findings suggest it may have been a
> single wave of migration that saw the ancestors of
> both the C1b and B2 haplogroups make it into the
> Americas.
>
> The burial site has also provided an unprecedented
> peek into ancient Beringian culture. The babies
> were carefully placed atop a bed of red ocher
> after they died, and their bodies were surrounded
> by antlers whittled into hunting darts. “These
> things we hardly ever find—it’s a very rare
> window into the worldview of these people,”
> study coauthor Ben Potter at the University of
> Alaska Fairbanks told the New York Times."

My take on the red ocher and the antlers whittled into hunting darts is that these are, almost certainly, the result of "religious"/spiritual beliefs. I would be astounded if it were found they are indicators of anything else.

These people had a belief system in place circa 20,000 years ago.

Thank you for a wonderful, and deeply thought-provoking, article, Amyjo! I appreciate it!

Red ocher in burials is a common human motif, found for instance in Southeastern Europe, the Russian steppe, and northern China and dating back millennia. Archaeologists generally interpret it as a symbol of rebirth, since birth occurs in blood.

It is, therefore, presumably a religious practice.

The burial with red sediment or minerals and bone tools and weapons was also done by the Maglemose era people in Scandinavia and UK. These were late "stoneage" people very soon after the end of the last ice age up to about 5000 years ago when metalurgy started appearing. I like to make some their tools and weapons as a hobby.

I think you should go to Fast and Testimony meeting on Sunday next time they meet Babylon, go up to the pulpit and ask that question.

Then secretly videotape the look on the congregants faces to see what their responses are as you finish your thoughts. Or as they escort you from the podium.

That oughta be priceless. ;o)

Navajo fry bread is soooo delicious, and sooo bad for you.

But it's sooooo delicious.

Buddy Hackett was the best of the borsch bunch imho.

His genius was making the raunchy side of life appear downright hysterical.

Well perhaps we could bring this thread back OT before it mercifully closes.....

I would point out that fry bread is not native people's traditional food.

It was invented out of necessity when the Great White Fathers would offer them nothing other than white but not delightsome wheat flour to live on.

The white man's diet has been a far more egregious curse than their skin of darkness has ever been.

Shummy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would point out that fry bread is not native
> people's traditional food.
>
> It was invented out of necessity when the Great
> White Fathers would offer them nothing other than
> white but not delightsome wheat flour to live on.

True, and the other food "allowed" (through one means or another, such as US government surplus rations) on the reservations was mostly just as awful.

The Native Americans of southern Arizona have (or had, when I did this research) among the highest rates of diabetes anywhere on the continent (plus a number of other adverse outcomes; I kind of dimly remember that blindness was one of them).

At some point in the late decades of the last century they got the idea that switching over to traditional native foods, as much as they could, might bring them back to the vastly better health they had experienced, before the government basically required that they became dependent on government rations.

When they did this (I think there was about a ten year switchover period, as I remember), diabetes, and the other adverse disease outcomes, began decreasing fairly rapidly (as these kinds of interventions go).

I have been to the Native Seeds/SEARCH store in Tucson (which I think is a non-profit) several times (but not recently).

They have a plenitude of literature about how different native foods can prevent, or greatly alleviate, diabetes (etc.), and they have many of the native foods which have been studied (seeds, dried vegetables, etc.) available for sale.

I highly recommend the information they have available for everyone who is interested in this topic.

www.nativeseeds.org



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2019 10:07PM by Tevai.