"At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make."
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019

I didn't think so. But as long as your custodial parents did it is all good and righteous.

Not.

What, you can make covenants as a kid and understand what you did?

As an adult convert last year I can tell you nobody told me anything about making covenants. And as for understanding doctrine I was around 10 lessons into the Gospel Principles book so I would say my knowledge and understanding was minimal to nonexistent.

You converted into LDSism? Why?

nolongerangry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You converted into LDSism? Why?

Hello No Longer,

Thank you for asking. Yes, I converted. I live in a state (for my job) far away from family, so I was rather lonely, divorced, the LDS seemed so nice and welcoming, I met a lady sitting next to me on a long air flight who asked me to attend with her and talked about belonging. I'd never been in a religion and she introduced me to the Missionaries, who seemed so sincere and nice, and I thought I could be part of the "community"...without realizing until after Baptism, how they really feel about converts.

Once I was baptized, everyone changed. As a single, childfree lady even though I tithed and participated and showed up every Sunday and took a calling, many people were cruel and rude.They let me know in little ways that they did not think much of me. As in just basic things like having no one to sit with in sacrament, being excluded or rudely told I was not welcome to join a conversation, remarks about my clothes (I did not own a lot of dresses). Until I came here and especially CL2's list of rankings of members, I didn't see, as a professionally employed, educated lady, why I was being treated with scorn.

CL2 explained the Mormon hierarchy and I realized regardless of my personality or efforts, without born-in and raising children with a husband in the church, I would never be accepted.

I kept going for a while, people who were long-standing members told me things, such as how they had been sick or widowed or suffered serious life problems and no one from the church ever helped at all. I started seeing that it wasn't really much of a welcoming community, just pretending.

The real truth was shown to me when I (a single woman) was in an accident and was put into the hospital for four days. I texted a few people in the church what had happened, not one, during the time I was in, ever called, ever asked to come by, ever offered any help (I have pets at home). Any community was just a mirage. When I saw that for all their fine words, when the chips were down, I could not count on even an inquiry or follow-up. Luckily through being single I had a pet-sitter who immediately stepped in and a couple friends (not in the church) who visited me and offered help.

At that point, I had been going regularly around 16 months. I went a few more times and just stepped away.

You will see, No Longer Angry, that my story is not much to do with scripture or beliefs. I'm not sure I ever believed the stories they told, but because there was a really good Sunday School class and an amazing, energetic teacher, I did enjoy the classes, though they didn't really talk about things such as covenants you were supposed to make. When they got rid of the GP book at the end of the year, ended the weekly classes, and when I looked at the new book, which seemed to just be a long list of references to look up, and questions without answers (the "Come, Follow Me manual") it all just let me see that there was nothing here for me.

From what I've seen on the Board, which has been amazingly helpful (thank you Board!) some people left due to realizing the whole JS story was made up, some left due to inconsistencies in scripture, some, like me, left because there were just too many nasty people, wanting your time, money, effort, and then treat you like crap.

I hope that you can find a group, or a project, or a career, that will fill those needs that church, at least in my experience, did not.

No Longer Angry, I would be interested to hear your story or experiences which led you to RfM, if you would ever like to post them.

Thank you. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2019 10:43AM by mel.

Wards vary. Some are more friendlier than others. I think every member of the church who has moved around sees this. My brother never fit into the church very well because he never married. He went inactive because of that.

I think with the church is some people like it if they fit into the culture. That's being married with children and pretty much living the church life 24/7.

It's not a weekend church nor is it very forgiving of people who just want to be themselves and do their thing if that differs from what a good mormon is supposed to be.

The church is a pretty miserable place if you feel you don't fit in.

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nolongerangry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You converted into LDSism? Why?
>
> Hello No Longer,
>
> Thank you for asking. Yes, I converted. I live in
> a state (for my job) far away from family, so I
> was rather lonely, divorced, the LDS seemed so
> nice and welcoming, I met a lady sitting next to
> me on a long air flight who asked me to attend
> with her and talked about belonging. I'd never
> been in a religion and she introduced me to the
> Missionaries, who seemed so sincere and nice, and
> I thought I could be part of the
> "community"...without realizing until after
> Baptism, how they really feel about converts.
>
> Once I was baptized, everyone changed. As a
> single, childfree lady even though I tithed and
> participated and showed up every Sunday and took a
> calling, many people were cruel and rude.They let
> me know in little ways that they did not think
> much of me. As in just basic things like having no
> one to sit with in sacrament, being excluded or
> rudely told I was not welcome to join a
> conversation, remarks about my clothes (I did not
> own a lot of dresses). Until I came here and
> especially CL2's list of rankings of members, I
> didn't see, as a professionally employed, educated
> lady, why I was being treated with scorn.
>
> CL2 explained the Mormon hierarchy and I realized
> regardless of my personality or efforts, without
> born-in and raising children with a husband in the
> church, I would never be accepted.
>
> I kept going for a while, people who were
> long-standing members told me things, such as how
> they had been sick or widowed or suffered serious
> life problems and no one from the church ever
> helped at all. I started seeing that it wasn't
> really much of a welcoming community, just
> pretending.
>
> The real truth was shown to me when I (a single
> woman) was in an accident and was put into the
> hospital for four days. I texted a few people in
> the church what had happened, not one, during the
> time I was in, ever called, ever asked to come by,
> ever offered any help (I have pets at home). Any
> community was just a mirage. When I saw that for
> all their fine words, when the chips were down, I
> could not count on even an inquiry or follow-up.
> Luckily through being single I had a pet-sitter
> who immediately stepped in and a couple friends
> (not in the church) who visited me and offered
> help.
>
> At that point, I had been going regularly around
> 16 months. I went a few more times and just
> stepped away.
>
> You will see, No Longer Angry, that my story is
> not much to do with scripture or beliefs. I'm not
> sure I ever believed the stories they told, but
> because there was a really good Sunday School
> class and an amazing, energetic teacher, I did
> enjoy the classes, though they didn't really talk
> about things such as covenants you were supposed
> to make. When they got rid of the GP book at the
> end of the year, ended the weekly classes, and
> when I looked at the new book, which seemed to
> just be a long list of references to look up, and
> questions without answers (the "Come, Follow Me
> manual") it all just let me see that there was
> nothing here for me.
>
> From what I've seen on the Board, which has been
> amazingly helpful (thank you Board!) some people
> left due to realizing the whole JS story was made
> up, some left due to inconsistencies in scripture,
> some, like me, left because there were just too
> many nasty people, wanting your time, money,
> effort, and then treat you like crap.
>
> I hope that you can find a group, or a project, or
> a career, that will fill those needs that church,
> at least in my experience, did not.
>
> No Longer Angry, I would be interested to hear
> your story or experiences which led you to RfM, if
> you would ever like to post them.
>
> Thank you. :)
Born into Mormondom. Left at 15. Resigned at 35. Have lots of resentment, was molested etc. I moved on with life. Still have some hardcore TBM family members. They follow blindly, which I don't really understand. That is about is, summarized.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Maybe you already have or in stories but it is my first time reading.

How sad! But typical. And glad you are here!!

I didn't have a clue about the religion. Nor did I particularly care.

I was a social convert. I had just gotten out of an extended nightmare of a marriage to an abuser, and was stuck in a job that I hated with a manager I hated even more. I was suffering with both deep depression and PTSD.

The mishies were the sweetest kids I ever met. (I was easily old enough to be their mother, so there wasn't any kind of hanky-panky going on.) They, and eventually the ward members (in a little-bitty ward in the Deep South) seemed to think I was somebody special. I wrote talks that addressed the point in question, but I also added material that made people laugh, made them cry, and made them glad that I was there.

It felt wonderful to be in an environment where I was appreciated. I wasn't appreciated at home or at work, so church was the one place where I really felt comfortable and had friends. I had to leave there due to a job relocation, and ended up in a ward MUCH closer to the Zion Curtain, and the people there were not nearly as nice.

I have often wondered whether I would still be LDS if I had stayed in the South. I genuinely loved that ward. It wasn't about the goofy religion at all. It was about the PEOPLE.

I sorta remember that I promised to hold my breath when I was dunked as an eight year old. Other than that I don't recall any promises.

My family were converts to the church when I was 8 or 9. I had no clue what was happening or what the significance of my baptism was. In fact, a neighbour girl I played with told me her mom had said were were converting. I, not really understanding, ran home and asked my my mom if it was true that were were going to become "morons". In retrospect I can see that my mispronunciation might have been apt!

I could be wrong, but I think all the talk about covenants is fairly new. It seems like the emphasis on baptismal covenants has been within the last fifteen years or so.

When I was baptized as a kid over forty years ago, baptism was about becoming a member of the church and having all your sins washed away. That was it, no covenants involved.

I don't remember any talk of covenants until I went to the temple the first time. The temple president went over covenants and what they were before we took out our endowments.

I think maybe things got more serious in the church with Ezra Taft Benson. Before that it was more a go through the motions church. It was less serious. You didn't have to be in the white shirt and tie and nobody pestered you to read the Book of Mormon everyday. Baptism is just what you did when you turned eight years old. It was no big deal.

The church was more about being social in those days.

And my dad didn't baptize me. Don't know why as he confirmed me. That was interesting. I just remember the heavy hands on my head and I had my eyes open looking around. I hate being the center of attention so this kind of stuff was anxiety driven for me. Just glad to have it over with.

Telling responses.


Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you can make covenants as a kid and
> understand what you did?

I don't think anyone at 8 years of age accountable or not can understand that they are dedicating the rest of their life and 10 percent of their earnings to an organization.

A human brain grows more and more until at around 15 years of age it starts a possible decade long pruning process where a developed personality evolves into being. That is the hard neuroscience.

God of Mormons didn't get the memo on human growth and development. Or that god thought that something significant happens at 8 whereas a soul becomes capable of deciding something for eternity. Seems stupid that with that much "time" involved a human soul can't wait until its brain is fully formed to make that kind of decision.

Stupid 19th Century thinking invading the 21st.

I didn't understand a thing about the covenants; I only got baptized at age 9 because my friends were baptized and I wanted to join the crowd.

I bet that pretty much the majority of kids being baptized. Heck. I went to the temple and served a mission just to see what would happen. I had problems believing in the church and figured I would finally get an answer doing those two things. Well if I learned anything there, I learned the church was even more controlling and weird than I had originally thought.

Heck no. When my mom said come on and get dressed, we need to be at the stake house I thought we were going to go to a fancy restaurant and have a steak dinner.

Nobody sat me down and explained baptism to me. My parents were liberal church members and forgot to get me baptized after my 8th birthday and I think the stake or ward leadership had to remind them I had not been baptized.

So months later while playing outside with my friends my mom called me in. I got dressed in my go to church clothes and we drove to a church building that was different than the one we went to church in.

I don't remember much of my baptism other than going in this steamy locker room with people getting dressed and undressed. One dude was naked and I was going "Yuck!" why are we here. I got dressed in these white clothes and my dad did too and we went into this font full of pretty hot water and I got dunked.

It meant nothing to me. I thought it was weird. Years later I pretty much had the same experience at the temple. A locker room full of naked dudes and then it's old dudes doing the touchy feely on me. Creepy stuff and I didn't like any of it.

Did you not understand the temple? Me neither. IT was designed to be secret. Nothing in Mormonism made a lot of sense. Just get into these white clothes, shield, toga and get the thing over with.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you not understand the temple? Me neither. IT
> was designed to be secret. Nothing in Mormonism
> made a lot of sense. Just get into these white
> clothes, shield, toga and get the thing over with.

My first endowment session was a live session where there was no movie. It was old people acting the parts out. I thought it was weird as hell. I got nothing from it and I hated trying to remember that Five Points of Fellowship bullshit getting through the veil. For me it pretty much became a game of getting through the veil without making a mistake. It was a glorified game of Simon Says.

I really hated the temple. Rarely went. I thought the clothes and the whole thing was ridiculous.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really hated the temple. Rarely went.

It was a trigger for sexual molestation for me after my initiatory. Everything about the place felt like a violation.

It violated all my senses when I think about it. The first clue is when they wouldn't give me a towel when I did baptisms for the dead until I gave them the jumpsuit thing, so I was standing there bare in front of 2 old ladies. I've always been over the top modest. Just my personality. Has nothingi to do with mormonism. My brother and son are the same way. My ex is nothing like me and my daughter takes more after him in terms of "modesty." But she has changed since going back to church.

But I luckily knew about the initiatory as I forced my older sister to tell me about being naked in the temple--a rumor I had heard. I was ready to leave the church then. I hated that they wouldn't tell us anything. I don't like to be surprised. I like to be prepared and in control. Hated the veil. Never memorized any of it. I didn't go back enough to memorize it.

Yes,

I understood that we slit our own throats, cut our own guts out and gave all we owned, (I assumed even intellectual property), did, or earned from here on out to the CoJCoLDS.

... and that we better the hell not tell anybody.

Oops, I was thinking temple covenants.

Can I buy them for money?

I was eight years old !!!!

Whaaaaaaa, I'm gonna know and understand?

Why would gay parents give their permission to allow their child to be baptized into a church that is going to teach them that his/ her parents are unworthy, broken, need to be fixed?

I just don't understand what LDS is thinking here......"OK, OK, we'll baptize your kid if you allow it, but were going to teach him how evil you are!"

Yeah, that's gonna make things all better.

Why would any parent accept something from their child that they would never for themselves? Love.

As a general matter, yes, I understood there was a covenant.

However, I had no idea what gay, bisexual, lesbian or transgender meant.

I agree with Roy G Biv that it's hard to imagine too many parents in this situation accepting Mr. Oaks's generous invitation--snark. But, just based on my imagination it seems some of the scenarios could look like this:

Grandma and Grandpa want child of LGBTQ+ person to be baptized and let's say the grandparents want to take the kid to church with them. Said LGBTQ+ person and their partner think this is ok, since they'll have some time to themselves and "the church" teaches good morals to kids--well mostly, sort of, not really-- but Sunday mornings relaxing without kids really sounds nice. [You wouldn't believe how some of the most irreligious people I know start considering church when they get kids. Yes, there are more affirming churches out there, I belong to one of them, but LDS, Inc is all some people know...but I digress]. Now if the previous policy had been in effect, this kind of twisted arrangement would not work. Enter the magical reversal of eternal sacred doctrine that lasted a few months--hell--in the world of Twitter that's an eternity! Problem solved.

Grandparents get to say the kids were baptized and get 2 hours of weekly indoctrination sessions for the kid(s) and parents get some time to themselves. Presto. Raise the coffees and mimosas!

Of course not!

At 8 years old, I was busy riding bikes, playing with my friends, and making a mess. I placed the entire story of the gold plates on par with Star Wars, Santa Claus and a very busy Easter Bunny hiding all the eggs in my yard.

At the temple, the shield-poncho was way too small for me. It fit me like a baby doll dress that covered nothing and all of privates where in full view for a gaggle of temple workers to come by and OBSERVE that it neither fit nor covered me.

Sure, the year long temple class mentioned that each new person would be washed in a ritual. I really expected to have at most, my feet washed or the laying on of hands like a blessing on the head. Nobody told me that I would be standing NAKED in front of unknown men.

I also thought of the fear of becoming a NEW person when you go through for your own endowments. Well nobody informed me to avoid laughter. That's like a forced personality change. That's how I felt and I was scared that I was going to be rebuked (why not? I was forever told off at church.) for laughing after going through the temple. Very few temple going members had a sense of humor.

Did you know that I didn't laugh for an entire week?

To make matters worse, I was invited to drive up with the bishop to spend the night at Scout Camp just days after going through the temple. I had convinced myself that this was some sort of "test" to judge my righteousness. He shared some amusing tales from his work and all I did was **cough** to stifle my laughter. I was clueless as to how to act after going through the temple, but I ended up hating the temple because it had forced me to become someone that wasn't me.

Wow messy, your story makes me so glad I did not do the temple!!! Thanks!!!

mel,

Thanks for refreshing us about your conversion story. I am still amazed that ward members were too stupid to realize that you were the perfect convert. You weren't initially concerned about doctrine so long as the ward provided a sense of friendship and community. I mean in this day and age, members should have been thrilled that new people were interested in joining. To run people off is so stupid, but then again this church has to assign talks to remind people to be kind to each other.

I put up with a lot of crap because I believed that the church was true, but the members were not yet perfect. If the church had a middle ground and didn't hunt less actives like some kind of prey, then perhaps I might consider attending in a blue moon. However, it's best that we have moved on and no longer associate with said organization.

I was 8 and didn't even know what covenant meant. All I understood was that now my sins counted.

The language of the ordinance itself contains no covenant.

"Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

However, the person to be baptized supposedly agrees to all of the following in the interview conducted to determine whether the person is "worthy" of being baptized. So in that sense the person to be baptized is confirming to the Bishop that he/she does and will do all of the following:

----> As specified in Doctrine and Covenants 20:37:

Humble themselves before God.

Desire to be baptized.

Come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits.

Repent of all their sins.

Be willing to take upon them the name of Christ.

Have a determination to serve Christ to the end.

Manifest by their works that they have received the Spirit of Christ unto a remission of their sins.

----> Added by First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve:

Make sufficient changes in their lives to qualify as commanded in Doctrine and Covenants 20:37.

Develop faith in Christ.

Repent of transgressions.

Live the principles of moral worthiness.

Live the Word of Wisdom.

Commit to pay tithing.

Receive all the missionary lessons. (for converts)

Meet the bishop.

Attend several sacrament meetings.

(“Statement on Missionary Work,” First Presidency letter, Dec. 11, 2002)

Other than tithing and the Word of Wisdom, it's all quite generally worded and subject to interpretation. And since everyone knows that the top leaders never really know what they're talking about in terms of real revelation and doctrine (e.g. having mistakenly enforced the "practice" of excluding black people from the temples and the priesthood for about 150 years while laboring under the now disowned notion that it was a revealed doctrine), you can covenant to do all of those things mentioned above AND THEN SIMPLY INTERPRET THEM ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CONSCIENCE, since (based on their horrendous track record) your guess as to what god really wants and expects will obviously have a better chance of being correct than anything the leaders tell you about it. Of course the church leaders won't like that. But they've been so wrong about so much, you can tell them to just bugger off.

And what is the likelihood that a child being raised by homosexuals is going to be screaming to get baptized into the Mormon church at age 8? Does this really ever happen at a statistically significant level in reality? Why would that even be a thing?

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would that even
> be a thing?

Because for LDS Corp everything is "exclusive." Instead of offering baptism for all regardless they pharisaically refine and hone who gets it and who doesn't.

Ironically, they don't do this for dead people.

They just have to have lived at least 8 years before dying.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57904-temple-work-for-still-borns/

They are so concerned that humans not be alone in their hereafter.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/everyone-else-makes-such-lonely-heavens

Being alone living apparently takes a back seat to their big happy family delusions.

One among many.

I just have a hard time understanding why the parents in such a situation would want to have their child baptized into a church that is totally opposed to them and classifies them as sinners.

What would be the point?

"Hey, Jimmy. You know that Church that has decreed that we are living in sin and defying and disobeying God every day that we continue to be together as a family? Would you like to be baptized into that church and go to all of their meetings? We think it would be a great thing for you to do!"

I'm trying to understand what the motivation would be on that side of the equation.

I could understand it if the church was an institution that provided a necessary or very valuable public service or accommodation. But the church provides nothing more than fraudulent religious beliefs based on hoaxes and scams perpetrated by its founder--a convicted con man. I guess you could add that it also provides boring meetings and a place where you can send 10% of your gross income.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess you could add that it also provides boring
> meetings and a place where you can send 10% of
> your gross income.

Well, the family angle is always predominate in anything Mormon. I've known lots of Jack Mormons who baptize their kids.

It doesn't matter if I understood anything mormonism at age 8, because I didn't, and it wasn't true anyway. TSCC keeps moving the goal posts. Changing the score. Stopping the clock. Calling time outs- pitting the players (members/ followers) against themselves...

TMC (the Mormon 'church') LIED (lies) about Joseph's myth, about the 'bomb' (book of moron bs) they dropped on us, about the church itself, about anything and everything!

No matter what you know about that age, it is never enough.

It's TOP SECRET (too secret)
For primary children.

moremany Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't matter if I understood anything
> mormonism at age 8, because I didn't, and it
> wasn't true anyway.

I understand this and so do you but an important point much overlooked in Mormonism is how Mormonism claims human beings are "accountable" at age eight.

Many Mormons I know are in favor of Capital Punishment and I was when I was Mormon.

Mormonism teaches being that people are "free" agents in an a world of absolutes who have 8 short years until they are completely accountable for their actions. So a kid who murders at 8 is accountable for their actions and could be killed for them by the government and Mormonism would not have a problem with this at all. Like homosexuality, they might say something conciliatory but in their idealistic core a child murdering possibly without understanding what they are doing as long as they are not mentally disabled they deserve to die for their sins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2019 11:17AM by Elder Berry.

I think some lds want others to be punished because they feel superior, because TC (the 'church') [and the scriptures] tells them so.

It's hard for them to see equality.

Probably because they don't try hard enough.

It is hard to want to see equality when your world view is informed by an ideology making the human nature impulse towards an "us and them" outlook look like righteousness.

The parable of "The Good Samaritan" is lost on religious organizations who routinely exclude outsiders and expect adherents to jump through many religious hoops making them vulnerable to the "us and them" sentiments of outsiders and increasing their sense of "specialness."