I just came from our book discussion meeting, where we talked about Tara Westover's memoir. It was quite lively and one of the best so far, as a lot of personal angst was aired.
The consensus of what the Mormons were was that they were "normal" people with well behaved children and not too different from mainstream populations.
I tried my best to show how the brainwashing takes hold, but did not want to dominate a good discussion.
The disclaimer in the book was that it was not mainly about religion of any kind, but an examination of a family and struggles of the young woman to get free through education.

Several people did recognize that the basic mind set of the patriarch determined the life that the children suffered. All agreed that it was a cult situation.
I did not mention that I had been reading this board since 1998, almost daily, as there was not room enough to bring out all the things wrong in Mormon families.
The waiting list for the audio book is up to 400 now.

We were discussing this book at lunch today. Someone just finished it for book club and we were finalizing the order we each get to read it. I should have it tomorrow for my weekend read.

They were kind of appalled when I shared some facts about the history of the religion. One of them was going to do some research as soon as she got back to work.

Our book club read it. Funny thing was that it wasn't my idea and in fact I'd never heard of the book before then. Several people said "I thought about you all the way through the book, her father sounds so much like the way you've described your father."

I clarified that the family in the book was WAY out of the mainstream of mormonism in so many ways. I mean, when Tara went to BYU she thought everyone was sinful heathens. At BYU. Her family made most mormons look quite normal. I think the family was closer to many extreme fundamentalist Christians like ones you find here in the South than the average mormon family. But there WERE similarities in the control her father exerted over the family and over his wife, his racism and misogyny, and how he made all the decisions and the wife had no say in anything. He was maybe even more like my former father-in-law, especially in his survivalist craziness and belief in conspiracy theories.

But I REALLY enjoyed the book. I looked up all kinds of interviews she'd done and I think she is really amazing. She did a better job than almost any author of memoirs I've read in trying to get as close to the facts as she remembers them as she can. She went back to her journals, her family members and others. And a number of times when there were discrepancies, she'd actually state "so-and-so remembers it this way," which might be quite a bit difference than her recollections. But some neighbors, church members, etc. are saying that she embellished it. What I find fascinating about that is that if you asked each child in my family to write about my father, you'd probably have 5 very different stories. It depends on your placement in the family and relation to other siblings, your gender, your passions, your interests that might have been squelched, the expectations for you and incidents that happened to you and possibly not others. And if you asked people who'd been in the church with my family for half a century, you'd think they were talking about someone you never even heard of. She did the best job she could do of trying to put across HER memoirs of the family that SHE knew. How she got from there to where she is today is absolutely riveting.

I support home schooling when it is done well, but I've seen some situations where the schooling is seriously lacking. One of my concerns is in cases such as Tara's where home schooling is used to isolate the children from the world or from any hope of outside help or intervention. She is lucky that she was able to find her way out of her wretched family situation.

summer Wrote:
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> I support home schooling when it is done well

I don't know much about it but it seems to be seriously lacking in standards and oversight, and as you say, a lot of crazy parents use it to isolate their kids and prevent exposure to outside ideas. It is also apparently used by some immigrants for the same reasons, to prevent any assimilation. I don't understand how home-schooling was enacted with so few controls. I've read of children being starved or abused to death while being "home-schooled", had they been in regular schools some teacher might have intervened, or had there been government entities checking on these 'home-schooled' kids.

Public or private schools have been required in the US for so long, I can't believe all these rules were cast aside so easily in favor of unregulated home schooling.

I agree that there needs to be both standards and oversight. Parents need to maintain portfolios of their children's work and have them take some sort of a standardized test each year. I would even support regular home visits by say, a school social worker. The students need an advocate who will ensure that the parents are indeed, educating their children.

The fact is it's possible to find abysmal circumstances and abuse in both home schooling and institutional schooling environments. (John Taylor Gatto has written some interesting books on this topic.)

Then there is the political/philosophical question as to how involved governments should be in dictating standardized curricula versus individual and local community freedoms to pursue education on terms that they deem to be best suited for their needs. Once you put that much power into the hands of a government, it inevitably becomes a highly publicized political tug-of-war, with the winners dictating that their point of view will be the only correct point of view in guiding curriculum choices and content.

I haven't known many home-schooled children myself. I can only think of two families who did it whom I knew personally. But they were both stellar examples of how to do it very well. Their kids are very well-adjusted and in terms of socialization, I've noticed that they have never had any of that classic "teen angst" and "generation gap" thing going on that you often see on display prominently in movies and TV shows that portray kids in public schools (and to a lesser extent in real life). They've been interacting with people of all age groups their whole lives, as their parents have included mentoring opportunities with various accomplished adults in the community. They also have frequent get-togethers with other home-schooled kids in the area and it doesn't appear that they feel like they're missing out on a social life.

OTOH, I can easily see how it could go the other way with incompetent parents. Or in situations where there is too much isolation.

“Public or private schools have been required in the US for so long, I can't believe all these rules were cast aside so easily in favor of unregulated home schooling.”

Back in the days of child labor, those laws were passed to prevent children from taking jobs from adults. They aren’t needed today.

The idea of an educated populace is becoming increasingly unpopular these days. Democracy is the best tyranny, but only if the voters are idiots.

I was absolutely stunned when I read this book. I think what really got to me is where it happened and how recently. I have family all over that part of Idaho. I likely passed close to where the Westover family live.

The accidents and treatment of them was unbelievable. Frankly, I'm surprised the different family members survived everything.

I buy books all the time that I read about on this board and I just never read anymore except for work, so when I'm done working, I'm done reading (well at least the transcription jobs). I need to get some of these books out and read them.

Besides thinking that the whole of the Mormon religion was very mainstream, my book discussion group came to the conclusion that the patriarch was mentally disturbed. I did not mention the crazy Mormons that I know, and the crazies in my own family of a different religion. Not enough time.

The story was horrific; I was so glad that Tara escaped and lived to tell a story that needed telling.

Mel made an excellent point that some people homeschool in order to "isolate their kids and prevent exposure to outside ideas." This is absolutely true.

For a kid, it is mind-boggling to learn that things are done differently in other peoples' homes. Learning that other kids are allowed to have later bedtimes than yours, or are allowed to go ice or roller skating with school or Scout groups, or going to sleepovers at another kid's house can all be hugely eye-opening. And of course, all of these can become fuel for very heated fights with your own parents.

Example: As a kid, I thought I hated steak. Why? Because my mother bought round steak, panfried it, and it was about as tasty as a well-grilled boot-sole. But when I was invited to spend the night at my new (and future best) friend's house in eighth grade, her father grilled T-bone steaks on the barbecue. I had never tasted anything so delicious. I asked all kinds of questions, because I was sure that my mother would want to know about this fabulous kind of steak.

When I told mother about these incredibly delicious things called "T-bone" steaks, I assumed that she simply wasn't aware of them. Why else would she try to pass off pan-fried shoe leather as "steak?" She turned on me in absolute rage, and for the longest time, she tried to break up my friendship with "that new girl" from 8th grade. We had to sneak phone calls, write letters (via mutual friends so my mother couldn't intercept them) and contrive other ways to get together for ages. We remained best friends until her passing, more than half a century later.

But sure. I can see why some parents want to keep their kids ignorant and isolated. It's selfish and small-minded, but I understand.

Tara Westover is listed in this week's TIME among the "100 Most Influential People" in an article authored by Bill Gates.

This has to be the most amazing story I've ever read.

While Tara says the book isn't about Mormonism, it really is. It was a huge step going from her survivalist, reckless, Mormon family to BYU. But it was an even greater one going from BYU and Mormonism to the outside world to become "Educated".

Here is a commencement speech she gave in which she said, "I really did think without Mormonism I might turn out to be an ass."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOO1d2yuTp0

I read the book as well and found it to be very compelling and fascinating. The family dynamics were just appalling and I’m amazed at her resilience and determination to become educated.

Let's hope the family dynamics don't overshadow the rest of her life. . . Relationships, marriage and family: those things become so much more difficult if one grows up in a home where the parental roles are not modeled well.

Hoping for the best for her.

Tara has been interviewed by EVERYONE. Many of those interviews are on youtube.

Bill Gates, Christine Amanpour, Oprah, Ellen Degeneres, Gayle King, John Dickerson, Norah O'Donnell, Karamo Brown, PBS, and MorMonStories - episode #882.

I've been on a long waitlist for it at my local library and I finally got it yesterday!

I'm reading it right now. My nevermo sister-in-law loaned it to me. She told me it reminded her of my family. The father in the book is farther out than my father was, and mine was pretty bad. One can see the mental illness.