If this is not ok, please remove.

I need to talk to a low cost attorney regarding a TBM property management company who has refused to return my apartment deposit. According to the apartment manager they have not returned any deposits since they bought the property January 1 2019.

To make it more interesting the apartment was in Wyoming but the owner/management office is in Orem Ut. I met the owner and he is very TBM.

I’m a senior and don’t make a lot but UT legal aid said I’m above their income limits.

I just need help figuring out how to handle it and where. I emailed a second demand letter today.

Where I live, we have a newspaper woman who writes a weekly piece about such problems using letters from people like you. She's also on the radio. When she calls businesses and let's them know she's taking making actions public, they often step up and try to do the right thing.

Seems you can file for your deposit in small claims courts.

http://americanlandlord.com/landlord-tenant-laws-by-state/wyoming-landlord-tenant-laws/

Check for a website in the town you live(d) for a rental advocacy group that might be able to help.

I saw that but I don’t know whether to file in Wyoming or UT.

Plus with small claims I moved to the Midwest. I’m no longer close to Wyoming or Utah.

wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I saw that but I don’t know whether to file in
> Wyoming or UT.
>
> Plus with small claims I moved to the Midwest.
> I’m no longer close to Wyoming or Utah.

Then Google for the "elder financial abuse resources" in the state you live in now.

If your present state of residence has these resources (and I think most states do), then they should be your first stop, because you will receive valid legal and practical advice, geared to your particular situation, without cost to you.

Thanks I’ll try that right now. I didn’t think a third state would be an option.

You're going to have to make a trip, if the defendant doesn't cough up the money once you've filled and served. But then you lose the filing fee and the cost of service. You'd want to file where the headquarters are.

You can find the appropriate county court online and then look up their rules. Or call. Fill out the appropriate paperwork and mail it in with the filing fee. Look for any rules that allow you to lower or completely do away with the fee (not likely).

When you get your case number, call a process server in the jurisdiction and email them the paperwork. Either you or they will then file the proof of service.

Then it's a game of chicken, to see who blinks first. They'll say they'll pay you 50% of your deposit because of wear and tear. You'll demand 100% plus filing fees and cost of service. If they know you're coming from out of state, they'll F with you. You better have it well documented that you are entitled to the full security deposit. Plus interest...

It's just a big game to them and they win more than they lose.

If you are 65 years or older (Utah law), or 70 years or older (Wyoming law), you could possibly make a case using Elder Financial Abuse Law.

If so, there may be low (or no) cost legal services available to you.

Google: elder financial abuse resources Wyoming

Google: elder financial abuse resources Utah

I don't know which state would be primary here, but the resources available in either state will be able to guide you.

If you can use elder financial abuse resources (which are, to my knowledge, either free, or are very low-cost), then you can proceed without having to personally retain an attorney.

My best wishes go out to you.

I’m over 65 but the senior resources for Utah is only for low income people. They won’t even tell me what state to file if I take it to small claims court. The cost to travel may be the same of losing the deposit. I really really hate to let the TBM steal the money. How will his temple recommend be renewed if he is a thief to senior citizens!

wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m over 65

This undoubtedly means that you legally qualify as "elder" (for the purposes of elder financial abuse laws).


> .... but the senior resources for Utah is
> only for low income people.

You are primarily concerned with the state you live in now, and THEIR elder financial abuse laws. Forget Utah, certainly until after you have legal advice from the resources available in your own present state of residence.


> They won’t even tell me what state to file if I take it to
> small claims court.

Okay, if you have (evidently) already checked with your now-local small claims court, you know more than you did before you checked with them. Now it is on to Step Two.


>The cost to travel may be the same [as] losing the deposit.

I accept this as factual, but at the moment, you don't even know if you need to travel.


> I really really hate to let the TBM steal the money.

This is a valid emotion, but it has nothing to do with the law, or with your ability to use to the law to obtain justice. You need to get into an objective state of mind, where you see "yourself" as a "stranger whose true-life legal story is being related in a law textbook." This is now not so much about "you," as it is about legal justice in our society.

After the matter has been settled, THEN you can "reclaim" your human feelings vis-à-vis this particular case. In the meantime, put your human emotions into storage.


> How will his temple recommend be renewed if he is a thief to
> senior citizens!

This is literally none of your business. You are not "his" judge and jury, you are a citizen who is searching for the justice you are legally due under the law. How this impacts anyone else's private religious life is not yours to angst over, certainly not now, as you are seeking justice.

In California you would go through small claims court. Does Wyoming have such a system? Attorneys aren't allowed in small claims court.


Wyoming has a population of Under 570,000. The city of San Francisco has over 800,000 population. What are you guys doing right?

Wondering,

I am sorry that happened to you. It is such a racket, apartment living, fees for everything. I hope you can find a better situation.

My guess is that you will not find an attorney for a price that makes sense given your deposit. You might pay one a few hundred to write a letter, but chances are, the company will know that you would not have the resources to ever take them to court (paying an attorney to do so) and would just ignore it, and then you would be out even more money.

I agree with Tumwater and the other attorneys here, Small Claims court in your local area; your filing costs will be minimal, and with any luck, the landlord won't bother to show up and you can get a default judgement against them.

The other recommendations are also good, senior resources and protection.

I am not an attorney and this just my opinion. I wish you luck, and hope that you can get to a situation where you aren't constantly ripped off by these landlords.

Good luck!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2019 04:14PM by mel.

Thanks for the advice. But I am in the Midwest which is a third state. I don’t even know which state to file small claims. The state the apartment is in or the state the business is in!

...here's one no-cost option you can initiate. Notify the PMC and individual, that you are launching a social media blitz against him and his company. You will first need to gather all substantiating paperwork and verification documents to avoid any libel or slander lawsuit. Get a Ward/Stake list and target LDS members in his Stake if possible; showing his connection to the Church, and his position, at the Ward or Stake level(if applicable). Possibly, the individual's PH authority figures also. Put the ball in his court. He has an option. If no response, or hesitancy on his part, drop the hammer. The threat alone may work. I have used this tactic before. He should get no free pass.

Washington state has a statute regarding rent deposits & changes of ownership. All the other states should also, it should be disclosed as a liability to the new owners.


But, we know between owners & renters who gets to write the laws (or have their puppets write them), don't we?

Wondering,

The good thing about law is, you get to file where the damage occurred.

It doesn't matter where THEY are, it matters where you are! Where your apartment was, where they took your money, will be your jurisdiction, and you will go and get papers in your local area, and they have to respond to you.

(I am happy to be corrected by any attorneys here :) )

You just need your local city/county resources, where your deposit was paid.

If you are sure the owners are TBM and you know where they live, any paper work you send them, send copies to the owner's Bishop and Stake president remind him about his need to honest in his dealing with his fellow man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2019 08:07PM by tumwater.

Not an Atty... but an old Real Estate agent. I think that you have to file where the property was located, Wyoming.
Their excuse that they just bought the property has no value, the deposits have to be transferred with the property.
A lot of property management outfits will try this no refund tactic just to see if you go away. Don't let them get away with it. Also see how your rental agreement was written. There may be a clause that has a certain part of the deposit as non-refundable as a cleaning fee. Otherwise if you left the apartment in good clean condition, with no more than normal wear and tear for the time you were there... Go get 'em.
I don't know about Wyoming laws, but sometimes in small claims courts, there is a don't have to show up written submission method for simple claims.

Contact the Utah State Bar Association. Licensed attorneys do pro bono work there once a week--at least they used to, a few years ago.

If the new owners are in a different state than the property, the action needs to be where a (small claims) court has jurisdiction over them.

Check if they have a business license where the property is.

The jurisdiction is where the business is located, not where the apartment was. That means Orem, Utah is where you'd need to file your small claims case.

It would cost you more to file and possibly lose than it may be worth it to pursue.

You could file a complaint online (maybe,) with the Better Business Bureau that would get it on the public domain for others to see if they want to read reviews and complaints about the apartment you rented in Wyoming and how the owner stiffs its tenants out of their rent security deposits when they move.

Legally only thing landlords are able to withhold security for is for unpaid rent and damages beyond normal wear and tear. You might request an itemized list of what the landlord withheld your rent security for, to see whether his list meets the requirements under the law, and whether you'd have standing to contest if you were to take him to court.

They can't make stuff up out of thin air. If you documented the condition of the apartment when you left it, that would help you to contest any unverified damages he might try to stick you with.

I don't believe there's such a thing as a low cost attorney. Legal aid attorneys will assist low income clients when they're facing eviction. Not in a case to recover a security deposit after they've moved out, typically. You might try senior services for the county where you live if such an office exists. Some counties offer legal services to the elderly at no cost.

You can also file a complaint with the Wyoming Attorney General's Consumer Protection Bureau for rent security deposit.

They provide a mediation service to the public free of charge, that will mediate it between you and the landlord. You need to file your complaint in writing. You might be able to do that online or by mail. ETA: For Wyoming, you must print the complaint form and then mail it in along with your supporting documents.

http://ag.wyo.gov/cpu/consumer-complaints



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2019 08:19AM by Amyjo.

I had this happen to me a few years ago. In most states, there is a list of things the landlord is required to do. If they fail to do any of these things (at least in Arizona) you are entitled to get triple your deposit money back, even if you left the place trashed. The landlord is required to do a walkthrough with you after you are moved out. Then they have a limited number of days to provide you with a specific list of damages, along with any part of your deposit that is due to you. Ordinary wear and tear can not be counted against you. If they charged you for anything that is not legally allowed, you get triple payment if you sue for it and win.

A few years ago I was renting and spent a lot of money to make sure that everything was the same as I found it when I moved in. To me, it was an ethical issue and I also expected to get every penny of my money back. I took a lot of photographs when I left. The landlord kept all except fifty dollars of my deposit, charged me for a long list of upgrades, and refused to do a walkthrough. So I found an attorney and paid five hundred dollars to have the attorney generate a set of formal legal pleadings. In small claims court, people generally just fill out a form. I filed official legal pleadings that told the whole story, and cited the exact violations of statutes, pleading for triple damages, per the statute. In the end, the landlord likely spent a lot more in attorney fees than she saved by keeping my deposit. Even though she represented herself, it was obvious that she had legal help as I did. In pre-trial arbitration, I got half of my money back without needing to pay for a trial. So I broke even, plus getting back five hundred dollars after expenses. The landlord (a reletively uneducated individual) took a loss. My legal pleadings against her are still on the public record for anyone who looks her up on court records (an internet search), to see. I would have gone to trial if she offered nothing in arbitration, and I would have spent whatever it took to win in court (or on appeal if necessary), even if I had to take a significant net loss. In arbitration, she also apologized and convinced me of a few minor damages that I was not aware of (photographs). I was more interested in making her pay what she owed (plus more if I could), than in getting my money back. So sometimes the landlords have to pay out when they steal your money. Some people can and do go after them. The only reason I settled was because she was so stupid and my indignation so great, that it was taking up way too much of my emotional energy. The money was not that big of an issue, and I wanted it to be over with. I received my money before the case closed. If I had a win at trial, collecting from her against her will could have taken years of trying to find her banks, and having a court order issued and served to the bank at just the right time. Civil court cases (even small ones) can wear you out and might result in hollow victories. So unless a government agency is willing to go after your former landlord on your behalf, you'll need to sink some money in to it. At that point, it's more about making them pay for what they did, than getting your money back.

His caregiver had to take him to the hospital near the end of his life. My friend asked his caregiver to take care of the details for moving out and distributing his belongings.

After his death, relatives came to help and they worked hard to clean and empty the apartment. But the owner said the estate would not receive the original deposit unless they provided a new garage door opener which they did purchase and give to him.

He didn't like it, said it was faulty and worthless and he'd keep the deposit. The caregiver checked it out and found that the guy had installed it upside down. He fixed it and it worked perfectly. The owner was still unhappy for some reason and said that their had been wear and tear.

So a family member who was a lawyer wrote a letter and demanded payment which they received. sometimes we have to exert pressure where it's needed to have our rights respected.

Good luck. I hope this dispute works out well for you.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Tevai, I was just being sarcastic about the temple recommend remark.

So I did give them a deadline of next week to return it. I found there is a $100.00 penalty to landlords for not returning the deposit within 30 days. I did have a walkthrough and have a signed form saying the apartment was immaculate and in move-in condition. I met all the requirements of the lease and there are no non refundable clauses in it. So if I do not receive the deposit by next week, I will call both courts and ask which jurisdiction is proper.

It seems I can file from here and take a vacation when the date comes up. I will probably spend more than I will get back. Azsteve is right about that. It just burns me that people believe it is ok to steal from seniors.

I tried the elder abuse financial aspect. Utah and Wyoming only help unless you make less than $12,000 a year. I am over that. The state I am in had that but was funded by grants. The grants have expired. Oh well I could go see the Tetons again, I am retired. I can only hope karma works!

wondering Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tried the elder abuse financial aspect. Utah
> and Wyoming only help unless you make less than
> $12,000 a year. I am over that. The state I am
> in had that but was funded by grants. The grants
> have expired.

Thank you for this information! I am in the midst of writing a book on this subject, and this is most valuable (and unexpected) information for me. Thank you very much!

It sounds like you are skillfully maneuvering through, and if you do find yourself "on vacation," I hope you have a wonderful trip in every way.

Here in Utah what you'll have to do is get an attorney because the courts won't listen if your defending yourself. It will cost at least $225 an hour for the lawyer (no one works for free). and to file the court case will be at least $350-450. This mess will be at least $1500

If I were you I'd kiss the money goodbye. It's not worth it.

So I am supposed to allow them to steal money? What is this world coming to?

Call the Utah and Wyoming Apartment Associations for references and suggestions. It’s doubtful the owners of the apartment are members, but the Apartment Associations will be an excellent reference to you.

There is also a rental / tenant division of both State Governments you can report them to.

Contact these Associations FIRST, before you consider small claims court or hiring an attorney. They will give you the directions you need.

I did that and they referred me to legal aid for senior abuse which told me they only help low income people. They did take the name and were going to check out the company.

Wondering, I would try Amyjo's suggestions above, especially about contacting the consumer protection bureau. You rented in Wyoming (and the company was doing business in Wyoming) so that's where I would go for redress.

I can't tell you how many rental deposits I lost back in the days when I had roommates. We always left the place clean with only normal wear and tear. Landlords tend to treat deposits as found money. I only got it back for my last rental, which was a large apartment community that was professionally managed. And ironically, that was the one unit that I think I could have done a better job cleaning.

Wondering is not out any more moolah by using this route either.

Suing the landlord is an expensive proposition with no guarantee as to outcome.

Filing a complaint through Consumer Protection is free, it doesn't cost anything to try. At least it will provide a clearer picture of the reasoning landlord has used to holding onto security deposit or if he has acted in bad faith, should Wondering decide to pursue it further by taking it to small claims if mediation doesn't help him get his deposit back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2019 07:48PM by Amyjo.

Stop looking.
Just kidding.
Lawyer jokes...

Good luck!

I'll give you a lawyer suggestion, Try Richard's Law down on Murray-Holliday Road. It's up close to where the old cotton wood mall was, he does business with many of the property management companies all across Utah and has a good reputation for fairness. Your first visit should be for free.

its going to be costly, because the courts try to discourage frivolous lawsuits. Everyone at the county building is on salary and the bailiff, sheriff, judge, lawyer, secretary all have to be paid. Plus it's a really fancy building with AC. The place is expensive. So be ready to spend some more.

Reviewing the apartment complex and property management company on Yelp might spur some action.

Today on the last day of my ultimatum I received my whole deposit back. I did not get the $100. Penalty per Utah law but that is ok. Now if the check clears, this saga has ended.thank you all for your inputs. Exmos always reach out with ideas and support when one of us needs it.

Nicely played. Congratulations.

I'm glad for you, Wondering. Good job sticking up for yourself!

Yay for wondering!!

I am very glad for you, and I hope you feel proud of yourself and what you have accomplished, because you deserve to be proud of yourself.

:)

Yay! The drinks are on Wondering!!!