Mormonism taught me to rejoice in the removal of the sting of death when it took the lives of those around me because of "together forever" families. So when I read the following it felt familiar to me.

" "On her last morning spent here on earth I drove Grandma to church where she worshiped her Savior," she wrote on Instagram Monday. "Later that afternoon, she went to meet Him face to face! I’d say that’s probably how she would’ve chosen to finish out the day if she got to pick." "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/counting-on-matriarch-grandma-mary-duggar-died-of-an-accidental-drowning-after-church/ar-AACNZsl?ocid=spartandhp

But then I was like, WTF? This person drove a loved one to church and they died that afternoon and it was a good thing?

IS this good for a human's psyche? It wasn't like it was a death far away but in a familiar space. Was that better for the grief? It sounds like recounting how grandma went to a gathering after church and then just decided it was time to visit Jesus.

Makes me wonder how much grief might come flooding in when the Mormon shelves break and their eternal family levee breaks?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 02:29PM by Elder Berry.

Is there such a thing as 'natural' grief? The one best, true way to experience grief?

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Is there such a thing as 'natural' grief?

I don't know.

I think there is something psychological to it and its absence may be abnormal?
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/advances-in-psychiatric-treatment/article/working-with-grieving-adults/313282D476744A8745EECEFC2E85AB0D/core-reader

Maybe grief can be felt as delight that grandma finally got to see Jesus?

God knows Mormons used to think that their leaders saw Jesus premortem and they only got postmortem sightings with their "spiritual eyes."

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> elderolddog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> its absence may be abnormal?



I'm abnormal.

I didn't grieve when my mother died, or when my father died, or when my brother died, or when a friend died. I was sad to see those people go — especially the ones who suffered first — but I didn't grieve. I don't have close relationships. No doubt I'd feel differently if someone I truly loved died.

I don't know if you are abnormal. Normalcy is just such an idealistic notion.

I won't grieve when my parents die I don't think because they have never been a huge part of my adult life now that I'm well into middle age.

I suspect like most things grief is individual and biological as well as psychological.

Why I posted this is what I see as the "equalization" of emotions of loss where it comes to our brain's ability to forward look.

I know that I will probably breath, eat, and shit in the future. What I don't know is what happens after my death. And to go further and claim to know that I not only know what happens after death but what happened after a loved one's death is taking this forward looking too far in my opinion.

Religions by definition take things too far. It is a matter of how far. Claiming grandma would have preferred to see Jesus to survive hanging out by the pool is definitely taking things too far.

And Mormonism has the same notion. This ideal that mourning is like something people indulge in because everyone in the family knows grandma is now a missionary in the spirit world and as happy as she was on her 5 senior missions is preposterous.

It seems that religious belief moves from being a comfort to a dangerous delusion in short circuiting what some people would naturally experience if other people weren't telling them to be happy at their loss.

Regardless of grief I know when my parents pass I will experience something. It won't be happiness for them fulfilling their mission here on earth.

suppressed it, pretended for the people so that others wouldn't think you didn't believe in that forever family.
I have a lot less stress over death than I did as a mormon. I "
"feel" that if there is an afterlife, then I'll be with those I love. No hoops to jump through. No crazy worlds to populate and have my husband call me forth. Abinidi calling Lucy.

I think grief can catch up to you if you don't take the time to deal with it. It is always there I also believe. You never know when it can hit you. Anniversaries, etc.

I worry about my daughter as she has never "grieved" what we went through with her dad. She can be mormon and not see the disconnect. Like I said, she went to see Bohemian Rhapsody (and took my CD and has never given it back). she bought the movie. She said being gay is more complex than people think it is. And then she goes to the lds church? Somewhere along the line, this has to come to the forefront as she suppresses everything. She runs when she knows our dogs are dying (since it was so traumatic when our dog died when she was 11 years old). Tennessee for the dog she grew up with from then on--and Alaska for the next dog. She can't bring herself to get a dog.

After seeing that post about what Holland said about gays that someone posted about seminary and institute teachers. Whew!! Can my daughter associate with her dad? Was she ever asked if she approved of his lifestyle??

I grieve my parents AND MY DOGS to this day. I don't spend my days sad about it all, but I think of them. I do things like decorate their graves (dogs included). Hell, I actually do grieve the life I wanted, the life I lost. What I hoped for for my children.

I do believe many mormons suppress it. I find it interesting that my mormon sister has had the most difficult time with our parents' deaths.

As a now "experienced" primary caregiver to three relatives who died, my learned wisdom is:

1) A good death (pain free, or as close to it as is possible, with the dying person feeling safe, and surrounded with care) is a good thing.

2) To the person dying, it CAN be like "going to visit Jesus." In the case of my own family members, Jesus was not a part of their dying process (we were never a "Jesus" family), but loved relatives who had previously died, and "showed up to help them along," WERE.

The process (which I think does depend, at least in part, on being as pain free as is possible) was peaceful, accepting, and hopeful--with a bit of happy excitement mixed in: That dying person was going to be able to be with [previously deceased, loved relative] again!!

I should also say that my personal recollection, of my own immediately previous death, was not like the deaths (which I was a part of, as primary caregiver) of my relatives.

When I most recently died, I was "there" (knowing full well that I was going to die within the next couple of minutes)....then, instantaneously, there was a "timeless" transition period where I was floating in warmth, and wonderful darkness, and safety....and then, suddenly, I was "here" (as an infant, in a crib, in a house in Los Angeles).

No visits from already deceased relatives when I was about to die (during my immediate pre-death I felt totally, absolutely, alone, cut off and without human connections of any kind), and no visits with relatives occurred after my death, during that "connecting" period of incredibly wonderful darkness, and warmth, and safety.

I think there are different kinds of death experiences, depending on the cause of death.

My three relatives who died (where I was the primary caregiver) were dying from "natural" (or UNnaturally natural: alcoholism) causes as part of a protracted dying process.

In my own, immediately previous, experience, I was shot in the head and I died instantly. (Even if my previous body technically continued to "run" for a bit after my death, my consciousness was already in that incredibly, wonderfully, warm and safe darkness.)

In my own personal experience: Jesus had nothing to do with it.

For Christians, however, it could well be that someone who experienced a similar death to what I experienced might well "see" or "be with" Jesus--perhaps even in some idyllic place like a beautiful garden or whatever.

What that wonderfully warm and safe darkness was to ME, could well be experienced or perceived as "Jesus" to someone else who had Christian religious beliefs.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 03:25PM by Tevai.

Years of being a TBM did not prepare me for my mom's horrible death. When she died it felt disturbingly final and not as if she had passed to the other side. It felt like she no longer existed. She was snuffed out and gone forever.

All those years of TBM brainwashing provided zero comfort when my mom died.

I agree with Cl2, that a lot of Mormons suppress their feelings of grief in public, and even to themselves, because they're afraid their testimony is weak.

My TBM mother always did that. She would say things like, "To despair is to turn your back on God." and "Depression is Sating working on you." As a child, I interpreted this to mean that any unhappiness or grieving was my own damned fault, and a sign that I was evil. I had to hide these emotions, because I would be punished for having them. I was punished, frequently: "You ungrateful brat! You have everything to be grateful for, and you complain about one little loss." Over the years, I would cry alone, for the loss of each goldfish, frog, turtle, goldfish, my 3 kitties, my one dog, each romantic heartbreak.

When my grandparents died, I was forced to voice the Mormon notion that they were in the CK with all their loved ones. I mostly believed it, but still wanted to cry, anyway. I would probably not be worthy to be in the CK with them. No matter how hard I tried, I was never perfect enough. I didn't know that I was a typical Mormon child, buying into the Great Mormon Threat: Separation from Loved Ones for Eternity! Death was scary enough, but adding all this unnecessary angst, punishment, pain, guilt, and hopelessness to death made it horrible!

Now I'm years out of the cult, I am free to face death in the "normal" way. I still think Death is horrible, and I'll always rage against it. Illness and pain are horrible, and should be avoided. I miss my parents and friends who have died. Yes, I miss my pets, too. I think of them probably every day, and smile, because we had good times together! I like to think I will see these spirits again--but I don't know anything--and I can "see" them any time I want, in my memory. I have written in my journal about each one, and I have photographs. It's normal to want to honor their existence. This is probably "internalizing" lost loved ones, right? The acute angst and pain are gone, except for life's natural triggers, once in a while....

I think Mormonism and other religions can de-sensitize people, much in the same way that group hysteria causes people to act in ways they would not act normally. For some reason, this makes me outraged. Mormons think that baby who dies is an already-perfected sweet spirit that didn't need to endure the trials of life, but went directly back to Heavenly Father.

Thank you for that link, Elder Berry, and this thread. I just lost my TBM SIL, and I have had to listen to a lot of Mormon stuff this week, like, "She's in the arms of her parents and her (abusive) husband." Someone even said, as a poster here reported reading in different obituary, that SIL and (abusive) husband could go on more missions together, in the hereafter! I guess it's the latest fad to have deceased Mormon couples go on missions.

Have you read those obituaries for missionaries who died in the "mission field"? God wanted him/her for a Heavenly mission. Outrageous!

How would you like to spend your last hours in a Mormon church? I won't go there for my funeral, either. D'ya think the grandma would have preferred to NOT drown in the pool, and instead would have liked to enjoy poolside ice cream with her grandchildren, and live 10 more years?

I would like to die like Bing Crosby did (only at an older age), and just suddenly fall on the grass, on the way to the clubhouse, after a beautiful 18 holes of golf. (I don't want my loved ones to witness it, or to have to take care of me in my bed.) No one has that choice, but we can choose how we grieve, and get help doing so.

"Have you read those obituaries for missionaries who died in the "mission field"? God wanted him/her for a Heavenly mission. Outrageous!"

I never know what to make of them. Are they hiding some intense grieving and this kind of "thoughts and prayers" friendly garbage is for public consumption? Just say God and people won't be overcome at the catastrophe of a young person dying in the service of a useless busywork and conversion efforts.

My daughter is on a mission and her email this week was all about some leader saying that they needed to convert themselves more than anyone else on their missions. Sheesh. Yeah, so if they die the news can throw out the Celestial Kingdom soundbites.

I posted about my experience here:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,757388,757388#msg-757388

Your daughter is 19 now... Where is she serving her mission? /s



Well, I got the humor off my chest...It's just always there, and I don't like to stifle it too much.


Death is a fact; grief isn't. It's just a factor. But the circumstances of some deaths are likely to cause grief/trauma. And mental trauma is always a possibility. I hate the times 'life-its-ownself' has caused me pain. I've resolved to hold to the notion that 'it wasn't personal' and on the notion that no one gets of this thing called life without hurting.

The pain is always real.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Death is a fact; grief isn't. It's just a factor.

Be that as it may, when is grief even identifiable when one is just visiting with Jesus until you all can join them?

I realized a little while ago or many times over the years, but I forget. She's just doing what I did. I thought if I did everything right I wouldn't have to suffer, so I set out to do so. I even have people tell me that they can't figure out what happened as I was the one who did it all right. My youngest brother said that his first reaction to finding out my husband is gay and he had left me was, "NOT COLLEEN, NOT COLLEEN."

My daughter doesn't want to suffer. She did everything in her power to not marry, but finally did. I know it is a good thing and she is VERY, VERY HAPPY. She said it hasn't been difficult at all. They are always together. They even work for the same company. NOW THOUGH, I see that she is afraid to have kids as THEN it could happen to her what happened to me. Nothing like being vulnerable when you find out you are having twins and your husband is gay. I used to tell him, "YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T LEAVE ME NOW." But he did. Having been through that, losing my parents, because they were ill and I'm glad they left when they were still functional and did not spend years in a nursing home. But it doesn't mean I don't grieve them, miss them. I still talk to them all the time. It helps.

People said after my mother died that because her brother died just a few months before that God needed them for some great purpose and that they must be really busy and my reaction was, "Would you just LET HER REST!" If I were to die today if I were mormon, would I want to see Jesus or God first? No. I'd want to see my dogs running for me and my parents and my grandparents. Parents and dogs first, and I believe my dogs are with my parents. That is just my hope. Not something I KNOW. I just hope.

I came out of the store yesterday (early morning) and I looked at my car and my dog who is half chihuahua and half terrier (looks more terrier) looked just like my last little dog and I thought it was my Willy. So I continue to hope, hope that someday . . . But then I can't leave as I have things I need to do. Be here for my kids as long as I possibly can be.