A Mormon told me how god allows prophets to make mistakes. But when I mentioned the priesthood ban and the LDS essay, he told me that the ban was not a mistake.

Deseret News article on Priesthood essay says it was Brigham Young's mistake, not from revelation
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604750/LDS-blacks-scholars-cheer-churchs-essay-on-priesthood.html?pg=all

Salt Lake Tribune article on priesthood essay also says that the ban was not from revelation
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57241071-78/church-lds-says-mormon.html.csp

I guess he doesn't want to admit a mistake of that magnitude.

It was neither.
It was racism, pure and simple. And racism supported by "canonized" LDS scripture, such as the Book of Abraham (a proven fraud).

This is causing a lot of my generation to question and leave the church just as much as the polygamy. I'm 51 so I went on my mission in 1983 so even though we were allowed to now teach and baptize blacks, we still had to explain and preach the past doctrine of Cain and Ham posterity and "The less valiant in heaven" history.

There were those missionaries who had to serve in South Africa and South American countries that bordered Brazil and some of the South Pacific Islands that would have to question members about the possibility of them having any African blood (The whole 'even 1/16th').

If you get a chance listen to infants on thrones, the unintentional racist and even Don from "Man Up" says that this was one of his breaking points on proving the church was false.

Now the Church comes out and says that all other past prophets and G.A.s were racists and "products of their times"??? Yet, they defied laws and governments to practice polygamy?

Then again Joseph Smith and W.W. Phelps were accused of being abolitionists. And the church did at one time welcome "free blacks into the church, "The Church never denied membership based on race (although slaves had to have their master's permission to be baptized), and several black men were ordained to the priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime. The first known black Latter-day Saint was "Black Pete", who joined the Church in Kirtland, Ohio, and there is some evidence that he held the LDS priesthood. Other African Americans, including Elijah Abel in 1832, Joseph T. Ball in 1835 or 1836 (who also presided over the Boston Branch from 1844–1845), and Walker Lewis in 1843 (and probably his son, Enoch Lovejoy Lewis), were ordained to the priesthood during Smith's lifetime. William McCary was ordained in Nauvoo in 1846 by Apostle Orson Hyde. Two of the descendants of Elijah Abel were also ordained Elders, and two other black men, Samuel Chambers and Edward Leggroan, were ordained Deacons." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_early_Mormonism

Then again, Brigham Young did accept Green Flake, a slave, as tithing payment; so maybe today's church is correct. Only the Brighamites were the Racists? Therefore, the Strangites, Williamites, or RLDS were the true church ... at least according to LDS Corp in Salt Lake!!!

the middle-aged LDS that I know claim it was "the prophet speaking as a man" and nobody really believed it. they also reminded me that "you will be blessed for following the Prophet even if it's the wrong thing to do"

I never did believe the curse of Cain. My father accused me of listening to Satan, who was using civil rights criminals to spread the false message of racial equality. He told my siblings that I was evil, and they shouldn't listen to me.

Then in 1978, when the curse was renounced, Dad called me to apologize for tormenting me for no good reason. Hahahahahahahahahah...he never did any such thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2015 12:01PM by donbagley.

soon the 'priesthood ban' and polyg / polyandry will be down the memory hole.

I was going to say, we all know and I knew it was a mistake. It was racist, The God and Jesus I loved and worshipped would never set a side a people and not give them an equal amount of blessings.

Yet we were taught it was doctrine and holy scripture. So this proves that Brigham Young was no Prophet and all of his crap can be thrown out because it sure didn't come from God.

dydimus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was going to say, we all know and I knew it was
> a mistake. It was racist, The God and Jesus I
> loved and worshipped would never set a side a
> people and not give them an equal amount of
> blessings.
> ========================================

Unless, of course, they were female!

The whole church was a mistake.

++++

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2015 12:17AM by Templar.

"A Mormon told me how god allows prophets to make mistakes."

What do Mormon prophets themselves say on that subject? Here's one statement, from the "Official Declaration" which announced the Manifesto which led to the end of plural marriages:

"President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)"

According to Wilford Woodruff, the discrimination against Negroes holding the priesthood had to be the will of God, because neither Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or any other succeeding church presidents were removed from office for continuing the priesthood ban until 1978.

So you could take the position that the essays, and anyone forced to comment on them verbally or in writing is simply "lying for the Lord." Right?

Also, the position taken now by the church media department, and leaders forced to comment could be disavowed in the future as some sort of protecting the good name of the church. The priesthood ban was doctrine, but they had to disavow it since society was so corrupt.

I call BULLSHIT!

It is whatever you need it to be in order to keep paying tithing.

you will find dozens of instances in which mormon doctrine is official and contradictory.

Some examples:

Is polygamy required
Is skin color a curse
Is the temple ceremony taken from adam directly
are the prophets infallible
will members become like god
can women give blessings
it the gospel changing
what is personal revelation and should you follow it
is the POGP an translation
who was adam
is god one person
who came to see JS in his room
Who should have succeeded JS and how


The fact is that there is original or established set of mormon beliefs. They have been made up as they went along and it has never stopped. Unfortunately for emphasis, some have declared these temporary positions to be the word of an unchanging God, which only made it harder to make change and pretend they did not.

In the lat 75 years they have wised up and stopped speaking for God, so they can never be caught lying. However this has put them in a spot where they have to systematically water down or delete the very founding principles of the church.

if you imagine a religion that was made up along the way, then suddenly all the discrepancies, anachronisms, contradictions, "revelations" make sense.

It is the cypher of mormonism: the realization that it was and is made up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2015 01:27PM by sb.

sb
>
> Is polygamy required
> Is skin color a curse
> Is the temple ceremony taken from adam directly
> are the prophets infallible
> will members become like god
> can women give blessings
> it the gospel changing
> what is personal revelation and should you follow
> it
> is the POGP an translation
> who was adam
> is god one person
> who came to see JS in his room
> Who should have succeeded JS and how
>
>
> Don't forget ... Are caffeinated soft drinks against the WOW?

michaelm (not logged in) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A Mormon told me how god allows prophets to make
> mistakes.
>


Too bad TBMs won't take the next logical step and ask themselves, "How many mistakes are being made today, by the current prophet, even Thomas S. Monson, and the other personal witnesses of the lamb of ghawd?"

How many RMs carry the memory of one of these prophets going all christ-like on our asses, just like Jesus used to harangue his disciples about their faults and failures?

I think you could argue that there was a huge mistake involved, especially in maintaining the policy for so many years. Specifically, justifying the policy required acceptance of the ridiculous idea that every black African was a descendant of the first Pharaoh of Egypt.

"I think you could argue that there was a huge mistake involved, especially in maintaining the policy for so many years."

The modern church can say that the ban was a mistake, but in doing so, they destroy the idea that the prophets receive continuing revelation from God on a regular basis. As huge and controversial as the ban was, it's disingenuous for Mormons to argue that "The ban wasn't removed earlier because no prophet bothered to ask God about it until 1978." The god of Mormonism used to issue revelations on such mundane matters as where to send missionaries, and to raise stock for the building of Joseph Smith's for-profit hotel. So god couldn't take two minutes to tell Joseph Smith or Brigham Young that their racist doctrines and policies were wrong?

"Specifically, justifying the policy required acceptance of the ridiculous idea that every black African was a descendant of the first Pharaoh of Egypt."

If you're a true believing Mormon, you still believe that. It's right there in the Book of Abraham.

Well no, it isn't right there in the Book of Abraham. That's the point that I must not have made very well.

The Book of Abraham states that Pharaoh was a descendant of Ham, and therefore cursed regarding the Priesthood. It doesn't state that Ham or Pharaoh were black. And it states that all the Egyptians and a much later Pharaoh were descendants of Ham through the first Pharaoh. It doesn't mention black Africans, not even in "Cush."

And this is what we were taught at the time:

Negroes. ‘See’ CAIN, HAM, PRE-EXISTENCE, PRIESTHOOD, RACES OF MEN. In the pre-existent eternity, various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father’s spirit offspring. One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels. (D. & C. 29:36-41; Rev. 12:3-9.) The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ: there were no neutrals. To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility. The Lord said: “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” (Matt. 12:30.)
Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others. Adam and all the prophets so distinguished themselves by diligence and obedience as to be foreordained to their high earthly missions. (Abra. 3:20-24.) The whole house of Israel was chosen in pre-existence to come to mortality as children of Jacob. (Deut. 32:7-8.) Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the ‘negroes’. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8, 12, 22.) Noah’s son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. (Abra. 1:20-27.)
Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them (Moses 7:8, 12, 22), although sometimes negroes search out the truth, join the Church, and become by righteous living heirs of the celestial kingdom of heaven. President Brigham Young and others have taught that in the future eternity worthy and qualified negroes will receive the priesthood and every gospel blessing available to man. (‘Way to Perfection’, pp. 97-111.)
The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord. The principle is the same as will apply when all men are judged according to their mortal works and are awarded varying statuses in the life hereafter.
In this connection it should be noted that other nations, also, have had lesser restrictions placed on them as pertaining to receipt of the gospel truths in this life. Christ limited his ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and did not preach to the Gentiles. (Matt. 15:24.) He sent his apostles out initially with the same restriction (Matt. 10:5-6), and it was with some difficulty that he persuaded them to go to all men when the period of Israel’s prior rights had expired. (Mark 16:15; Acts 10.)
The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance on those concerned in their first estate. Certainly the negroes as children of God are entitled to equality before the law and to be treated with all the dignity and respect of any member of the human race. Many of them certainly live according to higher standards of decency and right in this life than do some of their brothers of other races, a situation that will cause judgment to be laid “to the line, and righteousness to the plummet” (Isa. 28:17) in the day of judgment.

McConkie, Bruce R. ‘Mormon Doctrine’. First ed. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, Inc., 1958. 476-77. Print.

I tried to get a clear option on this from my TBM FIL. In his usual “blind to reality” way of looking at things, he tried to tell me that Brigham Young’s racist comments were wrong but somehow the priesthood ban was correct and from God.

From the article

"Darius Gray was working in his Zellerbach Paper Co. office on Third East one summer on a Thursday in 1978 when Dixie Baker, who worked in the paper company's credit office, poked her head through his doorway.

"The church is giving Negroes the priesthood," she said."


I want to throw up "The church is GIVING Negroes the Priesthood" is so self-righteous and arrogant.

Yeah, it's one of those two. Or maybe neither.

The church just wants the issue to go away.

I did the mission thing while the ban still existed. Nobody at that time ever considered it to be a mistake. It was God's doing, and the scriptures still exist to support it. In fact, Kimball and his contemporaries "pleaded with God" to have the ban removed. How nice of them... you know, asking God to not be a racist anymore. Revelation? Maybe they're dancing around (aka spinning) the accusation. Scripturally, yes. So how is scripture defined, revelation or not?

Nowadays, they want to shuttle it aside, blame it on the times, or throw one or a few people under the bus. Regardless, a mistake a century and a half ago shouldn't have gone unchecked for a century and a half with prophets, seers, and revelators at the helm. Especially something this significant.

Maybe the person I talked to can't accept that god would let prophets make such a huge mistake so he argued that the racist ban was from god. Maybe he harbors racist ideas and wants to back it up with the claim that it was from god. Either way, it was hypocritical of him after going on and on about god allowing prophets to make mistakes.

Here's more than you want to know

http://www.connellodonovan.com/black_white_marriage.html

Mormonism is all one big myth. Mormon's, for the most part, have been racists from the start. Remember, the Lamanites are to "become WHITE and wholesome" as per the Book of Mormon when the curse of god is removed. White skinned = pure, Dark skinned = cursed. What an asshole bigoted god the mormons worship.

Mormonism is a nineteenth century so-called religion existing in the twenty-first century by mistake. Nothing more - nothing less!

So, it was a mistake, not a revelation.

But God doesn't allow prophets to lead the church astray.

But BY, and every prophet afterwards for 150 years, led the church astray.

And around we go...

I've been told that sometimes prophets speak as men and not prophets, so they can be wrong. And so you are to pray and determine which is which. But if you can't trust the inspiration of prophets, why would you trust your own?

The whole thing is crazy-making. Nothing but emotion.

Question:
What would have happened to any church member in the early 1970's, if they taught openly that black people were not cursed, but that Brigham Young was a racist and that was the cause of the priesthood ban?

Answer:
The same thing that happened to Kathy Kelly and to John Dehlin.